Commons Sitting of 16 June 1808

FINANCE COMMITTEE.
Mr. Whitbreadrose for the purpose of putting a question to an hon. gent. in his eye, the answer to which appeared to him necessary for the satisfaction of the public. As the session was drawing to a close, it was desirable to ascertain, whether or not the house and the country were to expect a report from the committee, at the head of which that hon. gent. so worthily presided. Rumours were afloat, that a Report of a very important nature had been decided upon in the committee. He was sure that the hon. gent. would not take it ill to be thus questioned on the subject.
Mr. Bankes, while he allowed that the question put by the hon. gent. was a perfectly fair one, declared that really he hardly knew how to answer it. He could only say, that for his own part, nothing had been wanting to enable the committee to lay before the house their report. During the present session almost every hour which was not occupied by his duty in the house had been devoted to his duty above stairs. So far back as before the Easter recess, he had laid before the committee the materials of a report which was complete as far as it related to himself to make it so. Unfortunately, a considerable difference of opinion existed in the committee on the subject of that report, and the discussions upon it had proceeded to a much greater length than could have been expected or foreseen. Those discussions still continued. He could only repeat, that nothing should be wanting on his part to bring them to a speedy termination; that in his opinion the report might be laid oil the table of the house to-morrow; and that he should very much lament that the circumstances which he had mentioned should operate to delay the presentation of it beyond the present session.
Mr. Whitbreadthanked the hon. gent. for his candid explanation, and disclaimed
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the slightest intention to impute any blame to a gentleman, who, by the anxiety which he uniformly manifested for the public service, was entitled to the complete confidence of the house and of the country.—Mr. Whitbread was proceeding to express the regret which he felt at learning the probability that no report from the Finance Committee would be presented during the present session, when he was cal led to order by the Speaker, who observed, that there was no question before the house.

COMMUTATION OF TYTHES IN IRELAND.
Mr. M. Fitzgerald, (knight of Kerry) in what he was about to say, disclaimed all idea of any wish to embarrass government. In at all touching on this subject, he was anxious chiefly for two things; first, that ministers should not suppose, from the paucity of petitions, that the question was not one of very general interest in Ireland, or which they were on that account entitled to undervalue; secondly, he was anxious to prevent the people of Ireland from feeling any thing like distrust in those who were to bring forward these petitions. He felt himself bound to refute the calumnies which had been propagated, alleging that the disturbances in his county had been occasioned by the meeting to consider of the petition in question. It might be sufficient, in answer to this calumny, to state, that these disturbances had existed for years before, and that, after the meeting to consider of the Commutation of Tythes, they had abated rather than increased. The same he could also state as to other petitions. Another stigma attempted to be fixed on the favourers of this measure was, that an improper advantage was sought to be got for the land owners, at the expence of the church. For his part, he disclaimed every idea of the kind. He wished that the church and clergy should have their rights preserved entire; but that the present mode of levying the tythes should be commuted for one more equal and less burthensome. This was no catholic question; it did not partake of a religious feeling; it was supported by the county of Armagh, than which no county in Ireland was more, or rather so completely, protestant. It was a measure wished for by all classes, and even by the protestant clergy. He did not pretend to say that the petitions were so numerous as to entitle him to allege that it was at the moment a measure of necessity; therefore he should not urge referring the petition to a

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committee at present. He left it with ministers, assuring them that the commutation of tythes was necessary, and that no time was to be lost, after the commencement of the next session of parliament, in bringing it forward. He then moved, that the petition from the county of Kerry be referred to a committee of the whole house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeravailed himself of the opportunity afforded him by the right hon. gent.'s motion, distinctly to state that it was the intention of his majesty's government seriously to consider this business, of the importance of which they were completely convinced. He had already paid considerable attention to it himself, but he regretted to observe, that the further he went into the examination, the more arduous did the task appear, and that the undertaking of applying a remedy to the evil, appeared to be beset with difficulties almost insurmountable. He repeated, however, that every effort should be made to remove them.
Mr. Parnellexpressed his satisfaction at the sentiments which the house had just heard from the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Ponsonbyconsidered this to be a question of importance to the well-being of Ireland. Any new mode of levying the tithes did, indeed, present numberless obstacles: he hoped, however, they were not insurmountable, but such as might be overcome to the satisfaction of all parties by time and patience. He reposed all confidence in government that every means would be adopted to accomplish this object.
General Mathewstated, that he held in his hand a Petition on the subject from the county of Tipperary, but that after what had fallen from the right hon. gent. he should refrain from presenting it.
Sir G. Hillwas anxious to know whether or not his majesty's government intended to take into their consideration the commutation of tithes in England as well as in Ireland. He deprecated any interference on this point in the one country which did not extend to the other.
Mr. Herbertrecommended, in strong terms, the measure of a commutation, which he was convinced would not be attended with any insuperable difficulty, and which he was satisfied would be as acceptable to the clergy as to the laity. He knew several instances in which clergymen had declared to him that they would be willing to abate a sixth of their clerical revenue, if it could be collected with more facility,
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and in a manner less repugnant to their feelings.
Mr. Burtonwas by no means of opinion that this was an easy subject. In that part of England, where for many years he had been engaged in the discharge of his professional duties, the adjustment of tithes had ever been attended with more complication and difficulty than any other matter which had fallen under his notice; and he had just been told by an hon. friend near him, that in the county of Devon a very vigorous attempt which had been made to arrange the commutation of tithes had been abandoned, on the experience of the impossibility of success.
Mr. Sheridantrusted that the people of Ireland would not relax in their petitions to parliament on this subject, fully convinced as he was that whatever might be said by his majesty's government, it was to parliament alone that eventually they must look for redress. He completely differed from the hon. and learned gent. who had just spoken, with respect to the nature of the difficulties by which this subject was surrounded. In his opinion they were difficulties which a little attention might obviate. In cases of inclosure they were obviated at present, and he could not conceive why the principles which applied to inclosures might not be generally diffused over the whole system of the country. While he was on his legs he would say a few words on a subject in which he was more personally concerned. At the close of the last session of parliament, in consequence of the passing of two bills, which as they were now legislative acts, he would not characterise in the terms of abhorrence which justly belonged to them, he had given a solemn notice of his intention early in the present session of parliament, to move for a committee to examine the general state of Ireland. On the meeting of parliament, however, he had been induced by the recommendation of those to whose advice he must ever listen with deference on all subjects, and more especially on every thing which related to Ireland, to postpone his motion until after the discussion of the Catholic Petition; a discussion, the good effects of which on the general feeling of the house and of the country, were very plainly discernible. Since that discussion he had been induced still further to delay his motion by various motives, of which the approaching consideration of the subject immediately before the house, was one of the

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most weighty; and as that had been postponed until so late a period, he should abandon all intention of bringing forward his motion during the present session.
Mr. Ponsonbythanked his right hon. friend for his condescension; stating that he had made the application, from an unwillingness again so suddenly to agitate a question which, so far from tranquillizing the people of Ireland, must have had a contrary effect.
Mr. Rose, Mr. Bastard, sir W. Elford, and Mr. Lockhart, each said a few words; after which, Mr. Fitzgerald obtained leave to withdraw his motion.

EXPIRING LAWS BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the order of the day for the house going into a committee on the bill for remedying inconveniences resulting from the expiration of certain laws.
Mr. Sheridanobjected to the Speaker's leaving the chair. Why did not ministers prevent those inconveniences which they now called upon parliament to remedy? It was in their power to have prevented the evil, and why had they not done so? They knew what laws were about to expire, and why had they not provided in due time? It appeared to be a bill which might be well entitled, 'A bill for the better encouraging the laziness, indolence and neglect of his majesty's ministers.' It was too uniformly assumed that the bill would pass. The act which was to be continued might have expired before the bill for reviving it had passed, and thus the offence proscribed against cease to be criminal, or on the other hand, what was infinitely more serious, that which had ceased to be criminal, might, by a sort of latent revival, become suddenly penal, and thus a man might inadvertently be guilty of a crime, and hanged in a parenthesis. He thought the bill replete with absurdities, and no consideration would incline him to yield to the motion for the Speaker's leaving the chair, unless it was that of having the advantage of his high authority and parliamentary experience in the committee.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercontended, that this measure was not a violation of the usages of parliament for centuries; because the session of parliament, according to parliamentary usage, was considered but as one day. It was only a few years ago that an act was passed to provide that acts of parliament were to have effect from the day of passing; whereas, antecedently, all acts had reference to the first day of
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the session in which they were passed. The right hon. gent. seemed to think that it was the duty of ministers to attend to the acts that were likely to expire, but did not seem to be aware that a committee was appointed at the commencement of every session to inquire what bills were likely to expire, and if any neglect took place, it was the act of the house. But in the view taken by the right hon. gent. he did not seem to be aware that this bill was not to have effect by imposing penalties, confiscations, or forfeitures; it was only to continue authorities to maintain jurisdictions, until the enactment of the continuing bill. Therefore the execution in the parenthesis alluded to by the right hon. gent. could not take place under this bill. It would do much good, and could do no injury.
Mr. Ponsonbythanked the right hon. gent. for having attended to the suggestion made by him respecting the inexpediency of continuing penalties by this bill, when he had first mentioned the subject. The objections of his right hon. friend would have been unanswerable against the original bill, if it had not been for the proviso introduced by the right hon. gent. for excepting penalties. But, certainly, the introduction of that proviso removed a great part of these objections; and, with this proviso, he thought that the bill might be productive of benefit in certain cases.—The house then went into a committee.
Mr. Sheridanrenewed his objections to the principle, and thought it was an admission of the indolence of his majesty's ministers.—The bill then passed through the committee.