Commons Sitting of 13 April 1808

SUGAR DISTILLATION.
Lord Binning,chairman of the Committee appointed to consider of the propriety of confining for a
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time to be limited, the Distilleries to the use of Sugar and Molasses in the manufacture of spirits, brought up the Report of the said committee.*
Sir H. Mildmaythought it right to apprize the house, that the part of the Report which went to prohibit the use of grain in distillation, though sanctioned by a majority of the committee, had by no means its unanimous approbation. If any legislative measure should be proposed on the Report, tending to carry that principle into effect, he gave notice that he should feel it his duty to oppose it. There was no sufficient public ground for such a measure, and it would be extremely injurious to the barley counties, one of which he had the honour to represent. He was confident that his constituents would give him instructions to oppose the proposition, and that they would petition against the measure.
Mr. Chuteagreed with the hon. baronet. The landed interest was sufficiently depressed, and the influence of members whose consequence arose from trade was already sufficiently great, without striking a general blow at an extensive branch of the agriculture of the country. He should give his determined opposition to the measure.
Mr. Westernspoke to the same effect.
Admiral Hervey,as a member of a barley county, found it impossible to allow the measure to be announced, without announcing at the same time his determined opposition to it. He could not help ascribing the design to party motives: a rumour had reached his ears, that the members for Norfolk, Suffolk, and Essex were excluded from the committee in its formation, because they were barley counties.
Mr. Hibbertcould not suffer misconceptions, such as those expressed by the hon. members who had spoken before him, to go abroad, and operate uncontradicted during the recess. Though he was a merchant, he felt the importance of agriculture as much as any man, and knew that the principal dependence of the country was upon it. It would be found, when the Report should come to be examined, that the committee had looked not only to the interests of the West Indies, but also more particularly to those of the country at home, taking into consideration the present state of its foreign relations, which proba-
* See Appendix, p. lxxxi.

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bly would occasion a total stoppage, for a considerable time, of the usual supplies of grain from abroad. Under these circumstances, the committee had thought it wise to recommend the suspension, for a time, of the use of grain in distillation, and not, as was supposed by some, a permanent substitution of sugar and molasses. On a general view of the state of the country and of the continent, it appeared wise to adopt this measure, as a timely precaution against a scarcity. It was a satisfaction, that in adopting this measure of precaution, an important article of British produce and property might be brought in to supply the other demands of the public, and that a relief could be thus afforded to a deserving class of the community, and new vigour imparted to a principal branch of the revenue. He did not think the proposed measure would cause a fall of 6d. a quarter on barley; if he did, he would not vote for it. But if such a fall should unexpectedly be the consequence, the report contained a recommendation to the privy council to take measures immediately to return to the use of grain. Such was the nature of the report which had excited so much alarm, and which had met with such unusual opposition, before its nature was communicated or understood.
Lord Binningthought the discussion premature till the report should be printed and in the hands of members a sufficient time for consideration. He did not conceive that the right hon. gent. on whose motion the committee was formed, had passed over the members for Norfolk, Suffolk, and Essex, because these were corn counties. He himself had voted in favour of the recommendation to prohibit the use of corn in distillation, but he by no means would have done so, if he could have thought the prohibition likely to prove injurious to the landed interest.
Mr. Lushingtonthought it must be a most extravagant degree of alarm that could suggest to one member that the barley fields would lie uncultivated, and to another that the representation of the people, and composition of the house of commons, would be deteriorated by affording the relief which West India produce required, which could be afforded without injury, and to which persons interested in the West India colonies were well entitled. The committee had been formed as fairly as possible, by including a just proportion of every interest concerned. He hoped the landed interest would take up this
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matter fairly and dispassionately. The country gentlemen must reflect but little if they did not see that the depression of the West India trade would infallibly aggravate their own burthens.
Mr. Brandallowed that the West India trade was entitled to relief, and would be ready to support any relief given at the general expence of the country. What he complained of was a relief proposed to be given by the injury and oppression of the barley counties. A committee was not to be appointed to revise and bring into question the fundamental principles of public economy, so decidedly laid down by Hume, Stuart, and Smith, in this country, and by Turgot and Condorcet, in France. The uncertain wealth of speculation should not be supported by the sacrifice of the certain benefits of agriculture. He should look to the Report narrowly, and oppose it in every stage, if, as he feared, it contained a recommendation to prohibit the distillation of corn.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid the committee had by no means been appointed in opposition to the established, principles alluded to by the hon. gent. who had just sat down, or with a view to consult the interests of the colonies, at the expence of those of the mother country. The circumstances which called for the investigation of the committee, were of a temporary nature; so was the relief proposed in the report. These circumstances applied to the mother country as well as the colonies, and so did the relief; and so far was it from being intended to do any premature injury to agriculture, that not even a momentary depression of the price of grain was to take place without a power to put an end to the proposed restriction. He would express no opinion as to the propriety of carrying the recommendation contained in the report into effect. He had formed no opinion; he had avoided forming any till he should have the whole subject and evidence before him in the report. The committee had been appointed to consider the depressed state of the West India produce, and what relief could be afforded by introducing the use of sugar into the distilleries, or by any other means. The committee had taken into consideration the state of our foreign trade, and the probability of our being for some time deprived of our usual supplies of grain from abroad. And upon the general consideration of the state of the country, and of the West Indies, the report

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had been framed. These were matters which it was no absurdity to refer to a committee, nor to receive a report upon them. As to the formation of the committee, it was made up of country gentlemen, general merchants, and persons connected with the West Indies. So far was the rumour from being founded, which stated that the members for three particular counties had been purposely passed over, that it was his intention to have named a member for one of those counties, (Norfolk) if he had noticed him in attendance previous to the appointment of the committee. Of four members added to the committee subsequent to its formation, one only was a merchant, distinguished for his information, and the other three, gentlemen of the landed interest, of whom one, the hon. baronet behind him (sir H. Mildmay) had taken a very active part in the committee. At the same time that he professed and felt so great regard for the interests of agriculture, he thought that if by bringing an additional article of food into market, a former article should sustain some falling off, there would yet be no reason to complain, any more than if by putting three or four hundred thousand acres of waste land into cultivation, the general price of provisions should be reduced, he hoped that after the report should be printed, and a reasonable time afforded for its consideration, the sense of the house would be taken upon it, in order that the suspense that now existed should be brought to an end.
Mr. C. Elliscondemned the opposition shewn to the report as premature; the object of the report could yet be scarcely known, and certainly the reasons on which that object was founded, and the regulations and restrictions by which the proposed measure was to be accompanied, were not. He was satisfied, that no member of the committee would have voted for the report, if there could have been the slightest idea that the measure proposed would be injurious to agriculture. The committee was fairly formed of persons selected from every interest, and framed its report from the best view of the general situation and circumstances of the country.
Admiral Harveydeclared himself satisfied after the explanation of the chancellor of the exchequer, that the rumour of the members for the corn counties having been excluded from, improper motives, was without foundation.
Mr. Windhamknew nothing of the Re-
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port but its substance, and would reserve a perfect freedom of opinion till he had particularly examined it. He thought it right, however, to observe, that the illustration adduced by the right hon. gent. opposite did not apply. Bringing an additional quantity of land into cultivation only increased the supply of the article, and extended the competition in the market; but, in this case, there was a prohibition of one article, and an exclusion of one set of dealers.
Sir J. Sinclairstated, that the agricultural part of the community throughout the empire had felt the greatest alarm since the committee had been formed. It was therefore essential that the Report should be printed as speedily as possible, and that it should be circulated through the country, and full time given for the consideration of it. Then the sentiments of the farmers and land-owners might be conveyed to parliament; the case would be decided on an attentive view of the whole of the merits; and the landed interest would receive that protection to which it was entitled.
Mr. Manningsaid, the attention of the committee was always directed to the interests of the country, as well as to those, of the West India trade. He should have felt himself unworthy of the trust reposed in him as a member of the committee, if he had acted on any other principle. The measure recommended was but of a temporary nature, to be in force for twelve months from the 1st of July next; and if the restriction should at any time be found injurious to the price of corn, it might be removed without delay. But, if the restriction on the exportation of corn from the port of London to the colonies should be taken off, the landed interest would gain more by opening that trade than it could by any possibility suffer from the limitation. He thought it right to state this now, to correct as far as possible the misconception and alarm that had gone abroad. Such explanation was the more essential, as from the voluminous nature of the Report, it would be a long time before it could be printed and circulated in such a manner as to do itself that justice. As a proof of the impartiality that regulated the formation of the Committee, he stated, that he did not know his name was on the list till he heard it pronounced from the chair. Most of the merchants on the committee were wholly unconnected with the West-Indies.
Mr. Macleodstated, that the greatest alarm prevailed in the county he represented (Ross), and the adjoining county of Sutherland, at the idea of the measure recommended in this report. He was sure there would be meetings, and petitions to parliament on the subject.
Lord Binningthen gave notice, that unless some other person should offer a motion to the house founded on the Report, he should do so in proper time.

STIPENDIARY CURATES BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerbrought in a bill to encourage the residence of Stipendiary Curates.
Mr. M. A. Taylorwould be glad of a provision that would secure even the residence of Curates; for the only object of many of those who possessed a plurality of livings, was to get the duty done as cheaply as possible. The Clergy Residence act had in a great measure failed from the facility of procuring licences. He knew an instance of a clergyman who had two livings in different parts of the country, who procured an exemption from residing at any of them; from the one upon a certificate that the country did not agree with his constitution, and from the other because the country did not agree with his wife.—The bill was then read a first and second time, committed and reported.

FINANCE.
Mr. Biddulphhaving maintained, on a former night, that the interest and sinking fund for the sum wanted for the service of the year, might be found without imposing any new taxes on the subject, had to propose certain Resolutions with a view to that object, which he hoped the house would allow to be laid on the table, and to be printed, in order to their being taken into consideration on a future day.—On the suggestion of the chancellor of the exchequer, it was agreed, that the Resolutions should be read, and the debate arising on them adjourned to Friday fortnight.—Several Resolutions relating to the amount of Supplies voted, the surplus of the Consolidated Fund, &c. were read and disposed of accordingly, but on a Resolution proposing the sale of some parts of the Hereditary Revenue of the crown,
The Speakerstated, that it was contrary to precedent that the house should interfere with the hereditary revenue of the crown, without the authority of a special communication from his majesty.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid his majesty had not been consulted.
Mr. Biddulphproposed to reconcile this
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proposition to the forms of the house, by making it the subject of a recommendation, or in some other way, so as to have it brought under the consideration of the house.
Mr. Lethbridgehoped the hon. gent. would withdraw his motion. It was quite improper to think of interfering with the hereditary revenue, without his majesty's permission, intimated either by a special message or by his confidential advisers.
Mr. Biddulphrefused to withdraw his motion, and thought the difficulties of form ought to be accommodated rather than made a bar to the consideration of a proposition, the object of which was to save the subject from any additional burthens this year. As certain property, such as warehouses and legal quays, had been purchased by money from the Consolidated Fund, and vested in his majesty, so he thought parts of the other property of the crown might be granted for the service of the public. He did not mean to touch any property essential to the dignity, splendour, or comfort of the crown. The property he alluded to consisted chiefly of detached houses and small pieces of land in Piccadilly, and other parts of the town, to the sale of which he could not see any good ground of opposition. He would give a schedule of this property in due time. It consisted, first of property attended with constant loss; secondly, of trifling rents, which had constantly declined in value from the time of Philip and Mary, when they were worth 5,100 l. to the present time, when they were worth only 1500 l. and still falling off; thirdly, of detached houses, such as he before alluded to. This species of property was unavailable, either to the dignity or interest of the crown, and he was sure his majesty would have no difficulty to make it matter of arrangement to alleviate the burthens of his people.
The Speakerrepeated the impediment in point of form.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexpressed his readiness to abandon the Bills he had introduced to provide for the interest and sinking fund for the sums wanted for the public service, if the hon. gent. could devise means of answering these claims without new taxes. He would be grateful, even, for any suggestion that could tend, to diminish the taxes he had felt himself called upon to propose; but he did not see how what the hon. gent. proposed, so

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far as he understood it, applied to the service of the present year. It was true, that some unproductive parts of the hereditary revenue had already been sold; but it was by the advice of the crown, and in consequence of recommendations founded upon proper inquiries and investigation. It was true that legal quays and warehouses had been purchased by the public and vested in the crown, and that considerable sums had been paid for them to the amount of 3 or 400,000 l. But though the public might have thought it right to purchase at a high price, for public accommodation, the good will of individuals who had a vested right in these possessions, it did not follow that the property was of that value, or that it would produce near so much on a re-sale. With respect to the parts of the hereditary revenue, which the hon. gent. wished to make subject to parliamentary disposal, it was now matter of consideration with the surveyors and commissioners under the direction of the crown, how to dispose of the unprofitable part of this revenue, and to vest the produce in profitable property. It was, however, a step that ought not to be taken without mature consideration. Though there was an impediment of form, which precluded the house from entertaining the Resolution, the hon. gent. might rest assured that his suggestion would not be left unattended to.
Mr. Biddulphreplied, that he was very willing to withdraw the resolution, if the rt. hon. gent. would endeavour to procure for the object of it the recommendation of the crown.—On the suggestion of the Speaker, the last Resolution was withdrawn, and the consideration of the other Resolutions was postponed to the 25th of this month.

IRISH PROTESTANT CHARITY SCHOOLS.
The Report of the Committee of Supply was received, and the Resolutions were agreed to.—Upon the Resolution for granting 20,000 l. to the Protestant Charter schools of Ireland,
Mr. Parnellrose to draw the attention of the house to a circumstance respecting those institutions he had before alluded to, and which he thought ought to be redressed. A sort of Catechism had been composed for those schools, called the 'Protestant Catechism,' which did not dwell, as the Catechisms we were best acquainted with, upon prayers, creed, or commandments, but went almost entirely to abuse the tenets of the Catholic church, which
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were completely misrepresented in it. Almost all the assertions which were in this book respecting the doctrines of the Catholic religion were completely unfounded; they were in contradiction to the doctrines which the Catholic children learned in their prayer book, and which the Catholic body professed and avowed. He then read several extracts from this 'Protestant Catechism,' as it was called and compared them with the Catholic prayer book, and with the declaration solemnly subscribed by the Catholics. The effect of impressing such gross misrepresentations on the minds of young children could be only to increase those religious animosities which every good man wished to allay as much as possible. Among the doctrines which 2000 children were now taught at those Protestant charter schools, were these 'that the body of the Catholics conceived that no allegiance was due to the king, and that faith was not to be kept with heretics'. It was evident, that they must hate those whom they conceived capable of entertaining such sentiments. At a time when the liberality of parliament was appealed to in support of this institution, he conceived it would be a proper time to reform this abuse, and to prevent such a Catechism being taught at these, schools.
Sir A. Wellesleywas sorry that this subject had been drawn into discussion in that house. It had already engaged the attention of the Board of Education, who would probably give directions respecting it. He certainly never had seen the 'Protestant Catechism,' nor was he acquainted with those documents which the hon. gent. quoted to refute it; but he thought, that when he had stated what was taught in some schools, he ought also to have stated what was taught in others. He had been informed, that at several Catholic schools children had been taught to read, not in the Bible, but in Paine's Rights of Man, and in books which gave an account of what the Roman Catholics of Ireland had suffered from the Protestants. Such an education as this would breed them up in a fixed and rooted hatred to Protestants.
Mr. Grattanbore, testimony to the good management of the charter schools in other respects; but he condemned this 'Protestant Catechism,' which had been composed for their use. Among other extracts which he read from it was one where the child is asked, was there any salvation for persons in the communion of the

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church of Rome?' The answer to it was in substance, 'that their souls were in great hazard if they did not embrace the light when it was offered them, and abjure the errors in which they were brought up.'
Mr. Elliotread from the Roman Catholic prayer-book, which was published by the sanction of the four Catholic archbishops of Ireland, and which was put into the hands of all the Catholic children of that country, doctrines totally different from those which had been imputed to them in this 'Protestant Catechism.' The precepts in the Catholic prayer-book were allegiance to the king, and respect to existing governments. In that part of it which related to love and charity to our neighbours, the question is put to the Catholic child, 'Who is your neighbour?' the answer is, 'mankind of every persuasion, and we are bound to love those who differ from us in opinion, and even those who injure us.'
Sir J. Newportthought that it was no sort of excuse for such doctrines being taught in our charter-schools, which were national institutions, under the controul of government, and paid by the public, to say that at some obscure Catholic school doctrines as mischievous were taught. He thought his hon. friend had done very right in bringing the business forward in this manner, as it was often by the animadversions of the public that the grossest abuses were corrected. It was not above 14 years ago when no children could be educated at those Protestant charier schools but the children of popish parents, and it was very lately a custom to send the children from the South of Ireland to the North, and change their names for the purpose of cutting off all intercourse with their parents or relations. Those abuses had been hitherto principally corrected by becoming subjects of general conversation and censure.
Colonel Barrysupposed it possible that this 'Protestant Catechism' might have been composed before the Catholics formally and solemnly disavowed the sentiments imputed to them.
Mr. Fitzgerald(knight of Kerry) said, that Mr. Parnell had been absolutely obliged to bring the matter before the house, as he had been defied to produce such a Catechism at the time he alluded to it. The Catechism had now been produced, and it was a composition only fit for a Portuguese Jesuit, in the 16th century. If Ignatius Loyola had now been alive, and
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was chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland, he must have been quite ashamed to defend a Catechism like this. Its object was evidently to institute a hatred for every person of a different religious creed; and when we were asked to pay 20,000 l. per annum for those schools, it was time to require that the Catechism should be laid aside.
Mr. Parnellsaid, that he had not intended to find fault with any thing else in these institutions, and having mentioned this matter publickly, he should not refuse to vote the sum named in the resolution.—The Resolution was then agreed to.

PETITIONS AGAINST THE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhaving moved the order of the day for the house going into a committee on the Petitions against the Orders in Council, and the house having gone into a committee, several witnesses were called in to answer the evidence in support of these petitions.—The house resumed, and the chairman obtained leave to sit again on Tuesday se'nnight, with an understanding that the evidence in support of the Orders was then closed, and that the witnesses which had been named on a former day by Mr. Tierney should then attend.