Commons Sitting of 4 March 1807

MUTINY BILL—ROMAN CATHOLICS.
Lord Howick, adverting to the notice which he had given for this day, relative to the introduction of additional clauses into the Mutiny bill, for allowing Roman Catholics to hold certain commissions in the army, and for granting soldiers of that persuasion the free exercise of their religion, informed the house that on more mature consideration of the subject it had been deemed more proper to bring in a separate bill for that purpose; which bill he proposed to move for leave to bring in tomorrow. At the same time he thought it right to state that it was intended to extend
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the same privilege to Roman Catholics in the Navy service. As to the Mutiny bill, there were many amendments to be moved in it, to which he did not understand there would be much objection; it was proposed therefore, that it should go through the committee pro formâd, for the purpose of having the additional clauses introduced into it, after which the bill would be recommitted on Monday next, and from the advanced period of the season, gentlemen would be aware of the necessity of passing the bill with all convenient dispatch.
Mr. Yorkewas glad that the noble lord had adopted the plan of bringing forward his regulations respecting the Roman Catholics as a separate measure.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—PRUSSIA.
The house went into a committee of supply, on the motion of lord Henry Petty. The king's message of Monday relative to Prussia having been read,
Lord Henry Pettystated, that it was unnecessary for him to recall to the recollection of the house the circumstances under which lord Hutchinson had left this country for the continent, and the state of the continent at that period. That noble lord had been dispatched, as well for the purpose of communicating such information as might be necessary to this country, as to afford such aid as could be conveniently granted to the king of Prussia in the unfortunate circumstances in which he was then placed. Shortly after his arrival at his destination, he had made an advance of 80,000 l. to that monarch, for a purpose the importance of which the house would, he had no doubt, readily admit, namely, the defence of the remaining fortresses. Strong representations had been made to him, that, without such an advance, it would not be possible to pay the army intended for the defence of those fortresses, some of which however, had since unfortunately been taken. He did not feel it necessary to say more than to move, that it be the opinion of the committee that a sum, not exceeding 80,000 l. be granted to his majesty, to make good a like sum advanced to the king of Prussia, in consequence of the urgency of the state of affairs on the continent.
Mr. Bankeswished to know when the noble lord intended that the report of the committee should be brought up, as he had some observations to make upon this subject.
Lord H. Pettyanswered, that it was his intention to have it reported to-morrow; but if it should be wished, he had no objec-

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tion to propose its being postponed till the day following. No reply being made, the resolution was agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to morrow.

COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS—BUDGET.
The house having resolved itself into a committee of Ways and Means,
Lord Henry Petty,pursuant to notice, rose to state the terms of the Loan, and to recapitulate the Supplies and Ways and Means of the year. As an opportunity had already been afforded him, from the nature of the Plan of Finance, which, on a former occasion, he had opened to the house, of adverting in a detailed view to the extent of the supplies and ways and means of the year, he did not feel it then necessary for him to go at large into the statements he had formerly submitted to the house. But, as the loan had since been negociated, and as the time that had elapsed, enabled him to make the several statements with more accuracy than in the first instance he might have done, he hoped for the indulgence of the committee, whilst he shortly recapitulated the several branches of the supply and ways and means of the year; after which he proposed to state the terms upon which the contract for the loan of the year had been concluded, and then to explain what part of the Ways and Means of the year would be permanent:

SUPPLY.

Navy, exclusive of 422,500 l. Sea Ordnance

16,997,837

Army, Great Britain £10,202,968 Ireland

3,445,130

Making together

13,648,098

Barracks, Great Britain £506,237 Ireland

469,450

Together

975,687

Commissary-General's Department

841,526

Making altogether for the different branches of the Army Expenditure

£.15,465,311

Extraordinaries, Great Britain

£.2,950,000

Ireland

600,000

Together

3,550,000

Excess of Extraordinaries this year

793,710

Making the Total Army Charge

19,809,021

Ordnance, including 422,500 l. for Sea Ordnance for Great Britain

3,264,469

Ireland

479,246

Making together

3,743,715

Miscellaneous Services for Great Britain

1,200,000

Ireland

660,000

Vote of Credit

3,000,000

The noble lord observed, that there was an excess in the extraordinaries, of 793,710 l. this year, which he had not been aware of
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when he had submitted his former statements to the house; but, in consequence of the deduction of the expenditure of the commissary-general's department from the extraordinaries, the sum voted this year was less than the sum voted last year, and he had the satisfaction to state that his former estimate would cover the future extraordinary expenditure. It was proposed to make good the advance that had been made to the king of Prussia, of a sum of 80,000 l. out of the vote of credit, and also to pay a subsidy of 230,000 l. to the king of Sweden, in pursuance of existing treaties. An advance was also to be made to the emperor of Russia, of 500,000 l. out of the vote of credit. These were all the subsidies that he was then aware of as necessary to be paid, and at all events he had no doubt that the vote of credit of 3,000,000 l. would be sufficient to cover what might accrue in the present year.

The apportionment of the Votes of Credit was, for Great Britain

2,800,000

For Ireland

200,000

Together

£.3,000,000

The whole of the joint charges as he had stated, would be

45,396,575

To which was to be added Interest of Exchequer Bills

1,200,000

Loyalty Loan to be paid off

350,000

Deficiency of Malt Tax, 1805

200,000

Which made the Total Charge

47,046,575

Deduct 2–17ths for Ireland

5,545,677

Remains to be defrayed by Great Britain

41,500,898

He had next to state the Ways and Means by which these supplies were to be covered;—

Land and Malt

£.2,750,000

Surplus of Consolidated Fund

3,500,000

War Taxes this year

19,800,000

Lottery

320,000

Vote of Credit

3,000,000

Loan

12,200,000

Surplus of Ways and Means, 1805

171,185

Making a Total of

£.41,671,185

Excess over Supples

170,286

He had stated the Loan as a part of the Ways and Means of the year, and he had next to inform the committee of the terms upon which that loan had been contracted for; a duty which he should perform with satisfaction, from the advantageous terms upon which it had been negociated. The terms of the loan were for every 100 l. subscribed,

Three per Cent. Reduced

£.70

0

0

Three per Cent. Consols

70

0

0

Navy Five per Cents

10

12

0

Being at an Interest of

4

14

7

The committee would be sensible of the advantageous nature of this contract for

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the public, by calling to mind the terms upon which last year's loan had been negociated; terms that were then considered advantageous. The loan of last year had been negociated at an interest of 4l. 19 s. 7d. for every 100 l.; so that the public gained 5s. per cent. on the present loan.—Having stated the several items of Supply and Ways and Means, and explained to the house the terms of the loan, he should think he had fulfilled his duty if he had not thought it necessary to add another statement, to shew, that, notwithstanding the excess of the extraordinaries, the sum of 32 millions would be sufficient for the expenditure of the year, and for future expenditure, exclusive of subsidies and extraordinaries arising from the rise of the price of articles of stores, &c. He wished to put the committee in possession of the grounds upon which he supposed that the Ways and Means, offered by 32 millions, would be sufficient to cover the expenditure, with the exceptions he had stated. This he should shew, by deducting from the supplies all that was due on arrears, all that was due on subsidies, and the excess of extraordinaries, in which case there would remain, as he conceived, sufficient to provide for the same expenditure as in the present year; and also, by deducting all of the Ways and Means of the present year that was extraordinary, and not available for a future year. The noble lord then entered into a statement to shew, that by a deduction of the supplies that were extraordinary in the votes of the present year, such as the payment of the Loyalty Loan, the subsidies to the emperor of Russia, to the king of Sweden, and to the king of Prussia, the remainder of the sum voted on credit, and the excess of the extraordinaries of the present year, the supplies to be prospectively to be raised would be reduced from the supplies of the present year, viz. 41,600,898 l. to 38,100,130 l. He was not aware that it was necessary for him to say any thing further on the subject; and he should therefore move the first resolution.—On the question being put.
Mr. Rosewished to call the attention of the house to the statement of the noble lord. The noble lord had excluded from his consideration, in the first formation of his plan any estimate founded upon the subsidies that might be necessary, and yet scarcely a month had elapsed, when the noble lord came forward with a provision for subsidies to the amount of nearly one
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million. He asked, therefore, whether it was not a fallacy to leave out an item of expenditure, which followed so closely on the noble lord's first statement in arranging any financial plan for the future. He could not conceive how he could have overlooked the excess of the extraordinaries of the present year, as he admitted, at the time of bringing forward his first statement. It could not have been for want of having the accounts made up, for that was regularly done in the offices. He knew of no way in Which such an excess could arise, except from the arrival of bills from abroad, as all the bills that had already arrived must have been entered in the offices, at the time the noble lord brought forward his plan. Was the house to suppose, that in the space of six months an excess of nearly 800,000 l. had accrued in the extraordinary expenditure? He had always been of opinion, that the noble lord's supposition, that 32 millions would be sufficient prospectively for the country, was totally fallacious, and he had, therefore, recommended to the noble lord to assume a larger expenditure for the purpose of guarding against a failure in his statements.
Lord H. Pettyreplied by appealing to every gentleman who bad heard him, whether he had not distinctly excepted extraordinary expenditure by subsidies, and produced by a bill of stores and other articles, from his estimate of 32 millions? He wished again to set himself right with the right hon. gent. and the house on this point. The expenditure of the present year afforded the only comparatively certain data whereon to found any calculation of the prospective expenditure of the country. The expenditure in subsidies could not be anticipated, and therefore ought not to have been taken into any certain calculation.
Sir T. Turtonobserved, that the noble lord had kindled with the warmth of a generous mind at the charge of fallacy; but this was not meant in any individious sense. The event had proved, that from some cause or other the expenditure could not be confined to 32 millions. If the idea, therefore, had gone out among the public, that this criterion was correct, there was, no doubt, a fallacy with respect to the public. He asked, whether the 500,000 l. subsidy to Russia was in consequence of the treaty of 1805, or any new treaty ? [Mr. Vansittart intimated that it was in consequence of the old treaty.] Then he would

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wish to know whether the 80,000 l. to Prussia was the whole that was intended to be given, or whether it was the commencement of something further? If it was only a previous step to something further, he meant to propose a motion on that subject. He thought that subsidies to Prussia in the present state of that country would be wasting money. It would produce no good whatever: the fortresses, for the preservation of which this 80,000 l. had been given, had been captured, and there were little hopes that any assistance of this sort would be of service.
Mr. Vansittartreplied, that it was to wind up the account of former years. He entered into a short explanation of the subject before the committee; after which the resolutions were agreed to, and the house having been resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.

IRISH MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES—ROMAN CATHOLIC COLLEGE.
Mr. Hobhousebrought up the report of the committee of supply. The resolutions (grants for the service of Ireland) were read and agreed to, until the resolution for granting the sum of 13,000 l. for defraying the charge of the Roman catholic seminary at Maynooth, in Ireland; on which a discussion arose.
Mr. Percevalrose to oppose the said grant. Since he had last stated his opinion to the house on that subject, he had taken no slight means of acquiring information, and the result of his enquiry went more stedfastly to fix the motives of his opposition. It was not the amount of the sum, increased as it was in the present instance, that solely excited his bostility; it was in the growing nature of the demand, that he saw the strongest ground of alarm. As the Irish parliament had thought such a measure of policy advisable, he was still willing to retain the principle of meeting that determination; indeed, the united legislature were bound by the principles of good faith to continue the grant. But there was a wide difference between the allowance of a grant, averaged annually at 8000 l., and the concurrence in demands, which were progressively increasing, and has, in the present estimate, actually amounted to 13,000 l. There was, in his mind, another very strong ground of objection to the enlargement of this catholic seminary, that it operated to the prejudice of the University of Dublin. The house, by adverting to the Journals of the Irish house of commons, would find, that it was a growing practice with the Roman Catholic
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gentry in Ireland, to send their sons to that university, previous to the foundation of the Maynooth seminary. On a former occasion, when these estimates were submitted to a committee of the house, he had argued on the great and numerous benefits which would arise from the joint education of both Roman Catholics and Protestants, in the same university. It was affirmed by the right hon. baronet opposite, (sir J. Newport,) that, from the shortness of the period since the relaxation of the penal statute, which precluded the education of a catholic in the university of Dublin, it could not be expected that a great number of catholic students should have embraced that opportunity. But the actual number, whether great or small, could not affect the question; if the opportunity was taken advantage of by any catholics, however few, it went to prove, that in their minds there existed no prejudice against a participation with their protestant countrymen in the same collegiate education. The Journals of the Irish house of commons gave important information upon that point. In perusing them he had found, that at the period when the measure of founding the Maynooth seminary was submitted to the Irish parliament, the Catholics themselves presented a petition against the inexpediency of excluding the Protestants from the option of being educated there. The prayer of that petition was grounded on the great national benefits a communion of opinion and mutual good-will were so likely to produce. They certainly felt, what every true friend to England and Ireland must feel, that friendship and conciliation would follow, from the professors of the two religions being associated in their education; and it was with no light source of regret that the circumstances of the case made it necessary to declare, that the opportunity of effecting such beneficial consequences was suffered to escape. Had the public money been at that time expended in enlarging the university of Dublin, instead of adopting the policy of a separate institution, a great object would have been obtained, the benefits arising from which, would be found every day to increase. Indeed it was not saying too much, to assume, that the interests of the Protestant university appeared sacrificed to the advancement of the Catholic seminary. Within a few years, the professors of the latter institution were doubled; that is, from 9 professors originally, there were now 18: and for this in-

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crease there was no distinct notice ever given to the house. With respect to the other, or contiguous seminary for the education of laymen, there was something in the formation of it very inconsistent; inasmuch as the private subscriptions on which the parliamentary grant for the education of Catholic clergy was founded, were altogether applied to its support; and thus that annual grant, which was intended only as an aid, had now become the primary and only fund for defraying the expences attending the education of the priesthood. In the University of Dublin, provision was only made for 100 persons, including fellows, senior and junior scholars, and sizers; whilst the public were called on to defray the expences of 200 Roman Catholic professors and students in the seminary at Maynooth. The question then was, to what description of persons was this preference given? To a class of subjects, who, in their religious tenets, withhold from their lawful sovereign the admission of his supremacy. But, it had been contended, that it was wise to prevent the Catholic priesthood from being exposed to the mischiefs of a foreign education. It was to him rather extraordinary to lay so much stress upon the place of education, when the true and strong principle of danger and hostility, existed in the principles of that religion, in which, whether at home or abroad, they were uniformly educated. He wished to have an enquiry instituted into the nature of their bye-laws altogether; there seemed to him a great mystery about this institution. There was nothing like a visitorial inspection, no enquiry as to the mode of doctrine and discipline instilled and exercised on a number of youth, educated, if not in aversion, at least in hostility to the principles of the Protestant establishment. He felt it his duty to impress on the house, that, during the first years of this Catholic institution, the various grants given by parliament were founded on petitions. In the present case, he could not say whether a petition was ever presented; but of this he was aware, that no committee was ever appointed to enquire into the nature and extent of those plans, upon which this application was grounded. It was by accident that he had taken notice of this grant on a former occasion; the danger of admitting the growing principle, and of this house giving encouragement to such permanent expences and increasing demands, had made a considerable im-
1082
pression upon his mind; an impression which should induce him to move, "That the sum of 8,000 l. be substituted for the sum of 13,000 l. at present inserted in the resolution of the committee."
Sir John Newport.—Mr. SpeakerI feel myself able to convince the house, and I hope the hon. and learned gent. on the points of difference between us, by adverting to the acts of the Irish parliament which particularly referred to the catholic seminary at Maynooth. If, indeed, the learned gent. had adverted to them, his surprise that the demand for that institution had increased from the average grant of 8,000 l. would have been considerably lessened; for he would have found, that the sums voted by the Irish parliament, varied almost every year from 8 to 9 and 10,000 l. In fact, it would have been found, that, though the sum of 8,000 l. was the averaged annual grant, yet the Irish parliament expressly recognized the principle of varying the amount of the grant, according to times and circumstances. With respect to the objection of the hon. and learned gent. that the existence, much more the enlargement of the Maynooth seminary, was prejudicial to the interests of the university of Dublin; this is an objection, which I by no means admit; but before I enter on an investigation of that objection, I beg leave to appeal to that liberal and manly spirit, which marked the conduct of the Catholics, when, in the petition alluded to by the hon. and learned gent., they strongly deprecated the intention of excluding their Protestant countrymen from the right of being educated at the college of Maynooth. But what was the true state of the question, and how did the facts fully exemplify that it operated in no such way? that the increase of Catholics at the university of Dublin had been progressive, and at this moment there was double the number than at any former period. But it was not in the university of Dublin that the number of catholic students had increased; many of the higher orders of that body are to be found at the universities in England—at Edinburgh and Glasgow. But the hon. and learned gent. has said, it would have been a wiser policy to have enlarged the university of Dublin, and directed the public money expended on the Maynooth seminary, to meet the provision for the education of catholics there. Enlarge that University, I answer, as you please; and you advance not one step to the object of your wishes. And

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the reason is obvious, because persons who are to be instructed in the doctrine and discipline of the Romish faith, persons whose intention is to instruct their flocks in certain articles of faith, and in the observance of certain religious ceremonies, will never be induced or forced to embrace a system of education foreign from those intentions, and which, though not hostile, are very different from the opinions of those whom you would select as their preceptors. Was the house to adopt such a line of policy, there would, under the present circumstances of the world, remain to the Catholic but one alternative, namely, no education, no religious observance. They are, at present, deprived, in a great degree, of foreign education; the monasteries and institutions, which were formerly noted for those pursuits, have been entirely overturned. To Flanders, Spain, and Italy, it is impossible for the Irish catholic to repair for education; and will not the house take advantage of such circumstances, and duly appreciate the great national benefits vhich must arise from granting to them a domestic education? To restrict them to the University of Dublin, is, in other words, to compel them to a state of ignorance. The thing would be an utter impossibility; it is indeed extravagant to expect catholic acquiescence in a scheme directly in defiance to the religion they profess; nor would the professors of Trinity college do their duty, unless they performed that part, which the Catholic could not conscientiously approve. The hon. and learned gent. has asserted, that the accounts, attaching to this branch of the miscellaneous expenditure, have not been vouched. Had he thought proper to have extended his enquiries, he would have found, that the commissioners of the imprest accounts had as regularly certified this branch of services as any other. The two seminaries have been said to be in a state of rivalry and hostility. If such rivalry and hostility exist, I am sure they exist not with the Catholics. We have also been assured, that there is no visitorial power, although it is distinctly specified by the statute, that the lord chancellor and the judges of the country shall be visitors of the morals and conduct of the scholars, as connected with civil policy; wisely and prudently abstaining from any interference either in their religious doctrine, or discipline. if this measure had not been over and over discussed by the parliament of Ireland, if its eligibility had
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not been generally admitted, if the diminution of catholic incumbents was not by deaths and other causes ye y considerable, then there might be some strong reasons for not voting this branch of expenditure without mature enquiry. But I am sure it is in the recollection of the house, that when I proposed the miscellaneous services of this year, I did most particularly advert to the increase of the Maynooth grant; and I was induced make the observation, anticipating as I did, an opposition, either to the principle or amount of the grant, from a certain quarter in this house. I did think there were certain persons disposed to quarrel with that measure. But why quarrel with me, and not quarrel with my predecessor in office? The objection, in consequence of its not being referred to a committee, as a money grant, was formerly as valid as it can be now. I have introduced nothing new, but have undeviatingly adhered to the plan, which was previously chalked out. But I cannot conclude, without impressing on the house the small provision which is claimed for the education of the priesthood of at least three millions of people. Every principle of humanity and sound policy seems to me to call on this house for its acquiescence.
Mr. Bankesobjected to the additional grant now moved for, because its object was to double the number of the students for catholic priesthood in Ireland, and would consequently make the sum of 5,000 l. annual. He did not mean to say that the catholic priesthood should be neglected; on the contrary, he thought that it should be supplied, but this should be done in a different manner from that now proposed. He was certain that the object could be accomplished by means of private contributions. The house was aware that several institutions were supported in this way, and he could not discover why a catholic seminary might not be adequately supported in like manner. The state had not been formerly made a party to such an institution; he did not see, therefore, why it should be incumbered at present. On the whole, he apprehended that this measure would have the effect of making popery rival the protestant establishment in Ireland.
Mr. Grattanthought that in a question of this kind, that involved the education of a great portion of the population of the empire, any sect of Christians should be tolerated, as any one sect of religion was better than no religion at all. He was as-

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tonished to hear from an hon. gent. over the way, that if the Roman Catholics of Ireland were to be educated in the principles of their faith, it was little matter whether they received that education in Ireland or in France. He was surprized to hear this, because it went to say that it was immaterial whether three millions of the king's own subjects were educated at the expence and under the protection of his majesty's government, or whether they should be pensioners on the bounty of the emperor of France. From the jealousy hitherto entertained of the growth of Catholicism, that jealousy was founded not upon the mere doctrine; not against it as a religion; but against its foreign views, its foreign connections, its foreign relations. But here the objection was changed; no danger was apprehended from those foreign relations; the Roman Catholic might go abroad; but if kept at home, if educated in the bosom of his country, then he would be dangerous. Was this the doctrine? If it was, let it only be repeated in order to be refuted. And if it was not; if foreign connections were dangerous, why promote those views and strengthen those connections, by exiling the Roman Catholic for the purpose of educating him? As to economy, 43,000 l. had been just voted to the Protestant charter-schools; 21,000 l. voted to the Foundling Hospital; that is, with a ready hand, 21,000 l. had been given to the crimes of the depraved, and it was to be disputed whether 13,000 l. was to be given to enlighten and to instruct three millions of a bold and hardy peasantry. Why so much freely to the Protestant, and, why dispute the little to the Catholic? Did not this do that which was complained of? Did it not encourage the rivalry so much apprehended, by setting up one religion against another; and was it justice so to do? He had heard it apprehended that the institution might tend to encourage the Roman Catholic professors in that seminary, in the latent dissemination of disloyalty: was it remembered that that seminary was subject to the controul of visitors, the chancellor and the judges of the land, and under their controul nothing in that way could be apprehended? He wished gentlemen to look more largely at the institution; it originated in wisdom, and would be productive of good.
Lord Mahon.—Mr. Speaker;I can by no means coincide with the opinion and conclusions of the hon. and learned gent.
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opposite with respect to this measure of support to the Catholic priesthood. In my mind, it should be considered on the more enlarged principles of national policy, as one of those great and desirable means of connecting that religion, and the views of its professors with the interest of the state. The influence of the Catholic priests in that country, is well known to be extensive; unfortunately, the events of the rebellion have too strongly exemplified this; and, under such a conviction, I ask, is it not an inestimable benefit to have the care of their education committed to the government? I do contend, sir, that such a measure is more than a necessary one; it is a great act of national policy, and even were it not a legacy bequeathed by the Irish parliament, I, for one, should give my vote, even at this time, for a similar establishment.
Mr. Wilberforcefelt unaffected pain in offering his sentiments upon this subject. He wished, however, to be candidly understood. He was not, he confessed, one of those men who entertained those large and liberal views on religious subjects, insisted upon with so much energy by the right hon. gent. on the other side (Mr. Grattan); he was not so much like a certain ruler, of whom it had upon a late occasion been so happily said, that he was an honorary member of all religions. He could not help saying, that he thought the institution in question would tend to discourage the growth of protestantism in Ireland. He must add, however, that he thought the policy of this country's conduct towards that part of the empire had been a most illiberal and ill-judged one. This dangerous system of intolerance and persecution had been too long preserved, and could not be too speedily abated. At the same time, if protentantism was to be encouraged in Ireland, certainly the Maynooth seminary did not contribute to that most desirable effect. As a sincere friend to the Protestant religion, he was unwilling to extend an establishment which would prevent the propagation of that religion. He allowed it was not only criminal but cruel in the highest degree to oppress or restrain the Catholic religion; but it was no oppression not to favour it to the detriment of the Protestant establishment.
Lord Howickagreed in the principle of his hon. friend, that it was not only criminal but cruel to persecute any religious sect, but it was something very like

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persecution to refuse the means of education to the ministers of the catholic religion. He was sure that his hon. friend would be the last man in the world to recommend the adoption of intolerance, yet, when he proposed to withdraw the protection of the state from the catholic priesthood, he recommended something like persecution. He was, from principle and conviction, a member of the established religion, because he thought it the best and the purest on the face of the earth. He should not, however, think himself a friend to the protestant establishment by recommending any measure which could excite the envy or the hatred of the Catholics. He deprecated any attempt which might appear like an inducement to abandon the persuasion in which they had been educated. It would be foolish to endeavour to force the Catholics into the Protestant church; but if this were impracticable, what could be done, but to assist in making them Christians? Not only the policy, but the necessity of such a measure, had been recommended by the duke of Portland to the lord lieutenant of Ireland in 1795, when his grace was secretary for foreign affairs. His lordship then referred to the letter, and proceeded to observe, that as the principle of the institution had been acquiesced in ever since 1795, it was very strange that the present grant should be resisted; for, as gentlemen had acknowledged the principle, it followed that they could not refuse such additional grants as times and circumstances might render necessary, as the operation of that very principle to which they had given their assent. This was the argument arising from their own concession; but in support of the argument he could instance a fact, which must, he was confident, establish the necessity for encouraging home education for the catholic priests of Ireland. He was sorry he had not the document about him then, but the fact was, that Dr. Walsh, a priest of talents, who was appointed head of the college established in Paris for the education of catholic priests, had used every influence, and all means in his power, to induce such of the Irish catholic youth as were in Lisbon for the purpose of their education, to go to his college. He had offered them not only education, but had opened to their view every temptation which he thought most likely to withdraw them from their king and country. On a representation of the matter to the catholic bishops
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in Ireland, they treated, it as it deserved, and denounced exclusion from the faith against any who might be weak enough to fall into the snare laid for their allegiance. This threat had the desired effect. But surely we should not leave his majesty's subjects of any description exposed to the temptations of the enemy; and what could more effectually give us security in the present instance than the establishment of a college for the education of the catholic youth for priesthood? It had been properly stated by his right hon. friend (Mr. Grattan), that the sums granted for Protestant establishments were very considerable; they were so; but what would naturally be the feelings of the Catholics if parliament refused this trifling addition? They were men capable of being roused by neglect or insult as well as others. They should not therefore be refused the protection of the state, and the participation of the advantages of religious education. Did they not contribute by their industry and property to the taxes of the state? Did they contribute nothing to the church establishment? Did they not pay tithes to the Protestant clergy? Did they not, as well as any other description of subjects, contribute to the wealth and security of the empire? This could not be denied. Why then should they be excluded by the house of commons from religious education, or, in other words, from Christianity itself? He really thought the arguments advanced by the right hon. and learned gent. (Mr. Perceval) on this subject, were the most futile he had ever heard from him. He fully agreed with his hon. friend (Mr. Wilberforce), that we had too long neglected to take the situation of Ireland seriously into consideration. He confessed that we were deeply criminal for the part we had acted; but he also hoped that we should begin to discharge the long arrear against us. For his own part, he candidly owned, that he should feel that the proudest and happiest day of his existence when he might be able to set about the work of making up for the time which had been mispent with respect to Ireland. On the whole, if circumstances made it necessary to have the grant larger, he should most cordially support it; of course, he gave his full assent to the resolution now proposed.—After a few words from Mr. May in favour of the grant, the original resolution was then put and carried. The other resolutions were also severally put and carried.