Commons Sitting of 14 July 1807

MINUTES.
On the motion of lord Barnard, a new writ was ordered for the election of a member for the borough of Bandon, in the room of lord Boyle, now earl of Shannon. Also for the election of a member for the borough of Tralee, in the room of sir A. Wellesley, who had made his election for the borough of Newtown, for which also he had been returned.—Mr. Long moved for leave to bring in a bill to enable the trustees of the British Museum to sell, exchange, or otherwise dispose of, such parts of their collection as were not adapted to the purposes of that institution, and to lay out the produce in the purchase of other articles better adapted to their purposes. The articles which it was proposed to dispose of, were anatomical preparations, and other things of that nature. The disposal of these articles, and the purchases to be made with the produce, were to be under the controul of a committee of seven, at the head of which were the lord chancellor, the speaker of the house of commons, and the archbishop of Canterbury. The establishment was now placed on such a footing, that it was calculated in every respect to answer the purposes intended by parliament. Leave was given to bring in the bill.—On the motion of Mr. Foster, the house went into a committee, to consider of the compensation to be made for the fees of offices abolished in the department of the customs in Ireland. Mr. Foster stated, that the commission of enquiry into the fees of offices in Ireland had particularly recommended the extension of the retrenchment and regulation of the customs fees adopted in this country to Ireland. It became necessary, in consequence of the adoption of that measure, to make compensation to the officers whose fees were suppressed. The amount of the compensation to be paid was about 100,000 l. He proposed to raise this sum by a tax of 6 per cent. on imports and exports, with the exception of imports and exports between Great Britain and Ireland. The merchants would find this tax less burthensome than the fees. The produce would be about 90,000 l. If this sum fell short a little, the certainty and regularity of the payment would compensate the officers for the trifling reduction. He moved accordingly, that such a compensation be granted. After a short conversation between sir J. Newport, who
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thought that the compensation ought to be provided for by some more equal charge, than one that fell wholly upon foreign imports and exports, the fees being equally paid upon imports and exports between Ireland and Britain, and Mr. Foster who answered the hon. baronet's objections, the motion was agreed to.

ARMY CLOTHING AND AGENCY.
Mr. Cochrane Johnstonewith a view to shew the practicability of very considerable savings in the Army Clothing and Agency departments, rose to move for a number of papers which he had yesterday given notice of his intention to call for, and to the production of which he did not understand there was any objection. The present mode of clothing the army, by converting the colonels of regiments into a species of wholesale tailors, was particularly reprehensible. In the agency department also, much unnecessary expence was incurred. On the whole, he was convinced a saving of no less than 2 per cent. might be made on the 2,000,000 l. now annually expended on the army. The hon. gent. concluded with moving, "That there be laid before the house, 1. An account of all sums of money issued to the army agents from the 25th of Dec. 1805, to the 24th of Dec. 1806; specifying the names of those agents, the number of regiments of the line, militia, and fencibles, for which they are employed; and the amount of the securities given by them for the faithful discharge of the trust reposed in them: 2. An account of all sums of money issued to each and to every of the army agents, by way of compensation for his trouble in the affairs of the different regiments of which he has the management, and for any other public expences, from the 25th of Dec. 1805, to the 24th of Dec. 1806; specifying the several heads of service for which the compensation is granted: 3. An account of all sums of money advanced monthly to the army agents for subsistence, &c. for what period these payments are made in advance, and the names of the agents: 4. An account of the expence for agency attending the 26 articles of the abstract of the army estimates for this year, presented to this house on the 14th of January, the names of the agents entitled to receive the same, and the amount paid to each agent: 5. A statement of the mode of issuing the funds applicable to the Volunteer service through the office of the agent-general, with an account of the expence of that establishment from the 1st of

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June 1803, to the 1st of Jan. 1805; specifying the different heads under which the same has been issued: 6. Statement of the sums expended in Great Britain for the Volunteer service between the 1st day of June 1803, and the 1st day of Jan. 1805; specifying particularly how much has been applied to the following heads, viz. attendance at drill, inspection, permanent duty, also of drill serjeants, adjutants, serjeantsmajor, inspecting field-officers, brigadier-generals, majors of brigade, aides-de-camp, &c. and clothing: 7. An account of all sums of money to which the regiments of the line are entitled for clothing, from the 25th of Dec. 1804, to the 24th of Dec. 1805; specifying the number of regiments: 8. A return of the number of effective non-commissioned officers and privates, on the strength of the regiments of the line from the 25th of Dec. 1804, to the 24th of Dec. 1805: 9. A return of the number of effective officers of each rank on the strength of the regiments of the line, from the 25th of Dec. 1804, to the 24th of Dec. 1805."
The Secretary at Warhad no objection to the production of the papers, farther than that the subjects they alluded to were now under the consideration of the commissioners of military enquiry, who would shortly report upon it. The subjects were certainly most important, and the attention of the war-office and of his majesty's government were particularly directed to them, with a view to make every practicable saving for the public. Under the circumstances of the commission of military enquiry having directed its investigation to the matter, and of its being necessary to go to a considerable expence for clerks to make out the accounts, he put it to the hon. gent. whether it would be desirable to press the motion.
Mr. Rosewas confident that by adopting the plan of clothing now in use with respect to the invalids, a saving of from 100,000 l. to 160,000 l. would be practicable on the sum now expended on the clothing of the army, which was from 800,000 l. to 1,000,000 l. A plan, suggested by the paymaster-general, was under the consideration of his majesty's government, with the approbation of his royal highness the commander-in-chief, for taking the clothing out of the hands of the colonels, allowing them a liberal compensation for the advantages they now derived from it. This arrangement would be more satisfactory to the colonels,
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at the same time that it would be highly beneficial to the public. With respect to the Agency department, that too had been under consideration: but it was to be feared, that no considerable saving could be made in it, by establishing a general agency office, at least none sufficient to compensate the great convenience that was felt from having agents chosen by the colonels themselves. He submitted to the hon. gent. the propriety of waiting for the report of the commissioners of military enquiry. If that report should not go as far as the hon. gent. wished, he might move any further step he may think proper.
Mr. Windhamthought it best to leave these matters to the commissioners of military enquiry in the first instance. Both subjects, the clothing and the agency, had engaged much of the consideration of the late government, with a view to the practicability of some savings upon them. His inclination was very much in favour of the plan mentioned by the right hon. gent. opposite, and that not so much with a view to economy, though that important object also would be promoted, as in order to take the colonels of regiments out of the incongruous situation in which they were placed while suffered to act as clothiers to their respective corps. With respect to agency, that matter had been under consideration so long since, as when he had been in the war office, and the result of the deliberation was, that no saving could be made by the adoption of a general plan, sufficient to compensate the loss of the convenience now afforded by the nomination of his own agent by every commander of a regiment.
Mr. Cochrane Johnstonesaw the strongest reason for the production of the papers in the avowal of so many official persons, that the subject to which he called the attention of the house, admitted, at least, in a considerable degree, of reform; and that such reform, though many years in contemplation, was still not carried into effect. Probably, if he should omit to bring the matter before the house now, it would remain still to be said, after the lapse of some more years, that the reform was under consideration.——After some further observations from the secretary at war, who said the saving even on the clothing, would not be so considerable as some expected; Mr. Windham who said, it was not so much to saving he looked, as to correcting the incongruity of making the colonels clothiers; and Mr. Huskisson, who said that only a small proportion of the

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20,000,000 l. expended on the army, went through the hands of the agents, the whole sum that could with possibility be retrenched in this department, being at the utn.ost 67,000 l.; the papers were ordered.

SINKING FUND.
Lord H. Pettymoved the order of the day for going into a committee on the bill for the appropriation of the Sinking Fund. He would reserve his observations till he should have heard the sentiments of the right hon. gent. opposite.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercontended, that it was improper and unnecessary to adopt this measure, or to come to any resolution upon it in the present session. He allowed that great benefit had been derived from the pause in taxation introduced with this measure; but, in considering the further adoption of that repose in any future session, it would be proper to consider how far it was checked by being burthened with an increased Sinking Fund of five per cent. The measure had been already adopted so far as was requisite for the ways and means of this year. What it would be fit to do at a future period, would be best determined by future circumstances. This measure proposed to compel the public creditor to receive an advanced sinking fund on a small part of the debt now, as a consideration for being deprived of the growing accumulation of the whole sinking fund at a future period. By the act of 1792, it was provided, that unless parliament should establish other funds to pay the public debt, at farthest in 45 years, one per cent. should be set aside for that purpose at the Exchequer, so that it must be paid, at all events, in 45 years. The present measure, therefore, in making an arrangement to pay off the debt in 45 years. gave the public creditor the very worst repayment that by law he was entitled to. The precedent of lord Sidmouth's interference with the Sinking Fund, by no means went to bear out this measure. When lord Sidmouth, in funding 97,000,000 l. at the close of the last war, made a new arrangement of the Sinking Fund, taking advantage of its produce for that time for the immediate exigency, the public creditor was compensated by giving up the surplus over 4,000,000 l. a year, which would become applicable to the current service in 1808. Here there was no compensation whatsoever. He entered into a variety of statements to prove, that, by the plan of the noble lord, the most distinct disadvantage would accrue to the public, if they could allow themselves to be deluded by it. He
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deeply regretted that the expectation had been raised in the country, that during the period of war no greater annual loan would be required than 11 millions, an expectation which there was not the slightest possibility of being realized. He concluded by hoping that the house would not come to any decision on the subject, but leave it in an unprejudged state for the consideration of another session.
Lord Henry Pettyreplied to the chancellor of the exchequer, and asked, how he could call upon the house to defer its opinion on a measure which was contingent on another which had been passed by the legislature, and received the pointed approbation of the king? All that was implied in the resolutions which he intended to propose was, that the house should express its determination that, if the boon should continue for the time proposed, then a benefit would be expected in return. He was not prepared to say that it would be of very material import if these resolutions should be postponed until next sessions; but then the same arguments that were now urged, might be advanced in favour of longer delay, and so on, until the house and the country felt the inconvenience of no legislative regulation having been agreed to sooner. The act of 1802 had been spoken of, but he would ask, did not the legislature then act for the advantage of the public creditor, without ridiculously waiting until the individuals that composed that body should petition the house to interfere in their behalf? The principle upon which the sinking fund was raised, was, it was true, then broken in upon; but it was for the advantage of the public. An advantage to a greater extent would be reaped from the present system; it was by a regard to the security of the public creditor, and a seasonable attention to his interest; it was by public security, and the facility of disposing of property in our funds that an immense capital was drawn into the service of the public. It was said, that the proposer of these resolutions only accelerated the disorder in order that he might apply the remedy; but it was not right that regulations should be adopted for general supply, so as to prevent any sudden emergency hereafter. Would any man wish to get rid of a plan for the better supplying of this metropolis with provisions, merely because we did not want provisions at present? He did not say that exactly the same individuals would hold the

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stock at each time; but still a certain general good would be effected. It was certain that a proportion of stock, amounting to the value specified, would be paid off in a given period. It was said, however, that contingencies were not provided for, as it was seen that there was a vote of credit for 3 millions last year. The different items, however, of which that sum was composed, were expressly stated, and the house was then satisfied with the statement. In fact, it never was asserted that the system which was now to be proposed, would cover every extraordinary contingency, such as subsidies, arrears of subsidy, &c. But by the plan, as has been already stated, a certain sum will assuredly be paid off in a given time: and if ever there was a time when economy was to be looked to particularly, it was the present, (not economy as to abuses, for in that they were all agreed,) but economy as to the general management of the affairs of the public, and a serious consideration as to whatever would most tend to maintain the public credit. The country would, if these resolutions were adopted, be relieved from considerably increasing burthens for the present, and look forward with certain hope as to the future.
Mr. Huskissoncontended that the taking from the Sinking Fund, even at the end of ten years, would be diminishing the security which the public creditor now held; and he considered that it would be in the highest degree absurd to declare now, that in ten years we would take from the Sinking Fund, when it was absolutely impossible to foresee the state of the country in ten years, whether it would be at peace or at war, or whether it might not be necessary then to add to the Sinking Fund, instead of taking any thing away from it.
Mr. Dentexpressed his opinion, that so long as we were able to raise taxes sufficient to pay the interest of our loans, there was no necessity for the plan of the noble lord.
Mr. H. Addingtondefended the conduct of his noble relation (lord Sidmouth). There were some gentlemen who, if they disapproved of his conduct at the time that was alluded to, disapproved of it sub silentio. He thought it really somewhat extraordinary that some gentlemen should approve of what was said to give a breathing time to taxation, and yet not approve of the resolutions that were to be moved in support of that system.
Mr. Longdeclared, that he had entertainer strong objections to the measure of the no-
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ble lord in 1802, though he had deferred to the opinion of his late right hon. friend. He saw no reason for pressing the proposition of the noble lord opposite, this session.
Mr. Davies Giddywas so convinced of the radical truth of the noble lord's original propositions, that if he now pressed his motion, he should support it. At the same time, he saw not the utility of proposing the motion, when it was not likely to be acted upon.
Mr. Vansittartdefended the plan of his noble friend, and thought that the time for requiring of the public creditors any sacrifice was, when they had an advantage from the augmentation that had been made this year to the sinking fund.
Mr. Rosethough he had entertained considerable doubts as to the measure adopted in 1802, had yet got rid of those doubts in consequence of the circumstances under which it had been brought forward. The plan of the noble lord was founded upon an accumulating debt, and a decreasing Sinking Fund, but the original plan of his late right hon. friend was founded upon an increasing Sinking Fund, and a decreasing Debt.—The question was then put for going into the committee, and negatived without a division.