Commons Sitting of 8 January 1807

MINUTES.
At four o'clock the Speaker counted the house, when above 100 members being present, the house proceeded to ballot for a committee to decide on the double return from Horsham. Forty members having been balloted, a minor committee was appointed, and retired into one of the committee chambers for the purpose of reducing the committee of forty to fifteen. Some time after, Mr.

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White from the committee made his appearance at the bar, and presented a list of the members selected, which was read by the Speaker, and which was as follows: viz. Sir F. Fletcher Vane, W. Jacob, esq. hon. W. Howard, A. Atherley, esq. A. Tower, esq. T. R. Beaumont, esq. earl Percy, J. H Tremayne, sir J. Lubbock, hon. A. Foley, lord Walpole, G. Jones, J. Barry, esq. J. Raine, esq. W. Dickenson, esq.: the two last names were appointed nominees.—The Exchequer Bills bill, and the Annual Indemnity bill, were read a second time.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the committee of supply on the Ordnance Estimate.—The first resolution being put,
Mr. Johnstoneobserved, that there were two charges which appeared to him to require some explanation. Among the stores sent to Ceylon, amounting to 59,400 l. he observed some gun-powder, estimated at 4,000 l. Now it seemed very improvident to send out so much powder from this country, when it might have been sent to Ceylon at a much cheaper rate from some of our Settlements in the East Indies. This was the first charge which struck him with surprise. The second was this; he observed that for worms, turn-screws, &c. the charge for the service of Ireland was about 7,000 l. while that for England was only 1,000 l. This required explanation.
Mr. Calcraftreplied to the first observation of the hon. gent. that all stores furnished for foreign service were done so under an order from the secretary of state's office; but that not having that order then about him, he was unable to produce it. As to the difference between the charge of worms and turn-screws, &c. for England and for Ireland, he rather supposed, that a part of the charge for the former country was included in the sums provided for in the other resolutions. But he would make enquiry into this subject, and would be happy to give the hon. gent. every information in his power.
Mr. Johnstonenot only thought, that sending powder from this island to Ceylon was an oversight, but that the whole sum voted for the Ordnance Service of Ceylon, was too large to pass without animadversion. With regard to the other sums, he supposed that they were not correctly particularized in the resolution; for it was impossible they could form a part of the sums provided for in the other resolutions, as
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those sums were for the defraying of the expences of former years unprovided for, and what he alluded to was the charge for the current year.
Mr. Calcraftrepeated, that he would make himself master of this subject, and endeavour to account to the hon. gent. for that which now appeared to him to be so extraordinary. The resolutions were then agreed to.

MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS.
Lord Castlereagh gave notice, that on Monday he would move for returns of the present effective state of our Military Establishment.—As the noble lord sat down, Mr. Secretary Windham entered the house, upon which he again rose, and observed, that had the right hon. secretary been in his place when he gave his notice, he would have put the question to him, which he would now. He wished to know whether it was in the contemplation of his majesty's ministers to carry into execution the Training Act passed in the last session, or to substitute some other means of military defence?
Mr. Secretary Windhamreplied, that he did not know that any other measure was in contemplation; that it was probable the operation of the Training act might be extended to Scotland; and that he had no doubt in that case the people of that country would cheerfully support their share of the burthen.
Lord Castlereaghfancied that he had not made himself perfectly understood by the right hon. gent. His question did not relate to the suspension, or to the execution of the Training act in Scotland. What he asked was, whether or not it was intended to carry it into execution in this country?
Mr. Windhamobserved, that it was at this moment in a course of execution in this country: to what extent, must be subject to the discretion of the executive government, who would, in this case, be guided by circumstances. As far as taking the names, and balloting from the lists, the measure would be put into complete activity.
Lord Castlereaghagain enquired, whether it was meant to carry the measure into execution in a military sense, or merely to confine it to the obtaining of names and a consequent ballot. Did his majesty's ministers intend that the Training should take place?
Mr. Windhamrepeated, that the extent

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of the operation of the act must be regulated by circumstances. That as it was not likely that any material circumstance would occur, it was assuredly the intention of government to carry the measure into as complete execution as it was ever proposed to do. At no time was it likely that it would extend to the whole of the kingdom.