Commons Sitting of 21 May 1806

MINUTES
On the motion, or Mr. Graham, a new writ was ordered to be issued for a member for Westmoreland, in the room of sir M. Le Fleming, deceased.—The inspector-general of imports and exports, presented an account of sugars imported from the Virgin islands.—The Irish butter, and Irish Distillery bills, were read a 3d time and passed.—The Irish Revenue Collection bill, was read a 2d time, and ordered to be committed the next day.—Sir J. Newport moved the commitment of the Irish Customs bill, but post-
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poned it till the next day, at the request of Mr. Foster.—Mr. Matthews moved the 2d reading of the General Turnpike bill. Mr. Giles made a few observations on the mode of recovering the penalties. Mr. Matthews said, that persons were so harassed in sueing for the penalties in the courts above, that many of them were put to an expence of 4 times the penalty, without the cause even being brought to trial; by which means the farmer was terrified to compound with the informer. He therefore thought it preferable to submit the information to two magistrates, with power of appeal to the quarter sessions.—
The house divided; For the 2d reading 22; Against it 27; Majority against the bill 5.

POOR LAWS.
Mr. Whitbreadrose to give notice, that early in the next session of parliament, he should have the honour of proposing some regulations for the amelioration of the poor laws of this country. He hoped to be indulged in a few Words of explanation of his intentions, beyond what was usual upon giving notices in this way. The poor laws of this country, had grown into a system so complicated and embarrassing, and were become such a heavy and increasing expence upon the country, that some revision of them was absolutely necessary. He had had a plan of this nature in contemplation for some years past, which had occupied much of his attention, but he found it extremely difficult to reduce to a shape, in which to offer it for the consideration of parliament. One of two things seemed necessary in this case, either to simplify the present poor laws, by some short, clear, and comprehensive plan, or to suggest some new regulations for remedying their defects, and checking the abuses which continued to obtain under them as they now stood. To neither of these modes would he at this moment specifically pledge himself; but he should, however, early in the next session, propose to the house some plan upon the subject.
Mr. Rosesaid, that he too had had in contemplation, for a considerable time, a proposition of a similar nature, and that an intimation of his purpose had been given to the house above two years since, which, however, from a variety of other indispensable avocations and impediments, he had hitherto been prevented from urging before the house. He was extremely, glad of the intention, now avowed by the

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hon. member, and should be happy to render to that purpose every aid in his power. One part of the proposition, which he (Mr. Rose) had in view, was to provide employment for the poor, and thereby to render their own industry as effective as possible towards their maintenance.
Mr. Whitbreadanswered, that certainly a purpose so very important had not escaped his attention, but would form a leading feature of his plan.

BARRACK ABUSES.
Lord H. Pettyrose, and observed, that before he proceeded to the statement of the business, of which he had given notice, he trusted the house would indulge him with their attention for a few moments, while he said something respecting what had lately passed in the house concerning the barrack department. It would be in the recollection of the house that, when the hon, gent. behind him (Mr. Robson) brought forward some motions on that subject, one of them had been agreed to, while the previous question had been moved and carried with respect to the others. This, the house would recollect, had been done in the absence of all explanation, as to the object which the hon. gent. had in view, that was intelligible to him, or he believed, that could be intelligible to any person in the house. He had moved the previous question, with a view to induce the hon. gent. to come forward with the necessary information, and also with the intention, in case he should still refuse, to examine into the business himself, and find it out either with or without his assistance. He now flattered himself, that he had discovered the object of these motions. He found that they related to transactions, which took place in 1805, respecting the barns, hired as barracks, in the division of Sandown Bay, in the Isle of Wight, which were paid for at a very extravagant rate, when a building for barracks was offered at a much more reasonable expence. He would, therefore, under these circumstances, propose all the motions of the hon. gent., respecting which, the previous question had been before carried, and also add a new motion, which would relate to the barrack-master, who, it appeared, had hired these barns at an extravagant rent, and made an improper report, with regard to the building offered as a barrack. It was right that he should be called upon to explain his conduct, with respect to this
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transaction. He concluded, by moving for Copies of the letters from Mr. Day, of Brading, in the Isle of Wight, to the barrack-master of the Sandown Bay division, and to the secretary at war, respecting the building of a barrack at Brading, with the answers to them, if any; and a list of the barns, hired as barracks. In addition to these which had been previously called for, he moved for, a Copy of the report that had been made by major Davis, the barrack-master, relative to the proposals of Mr. Day, for building a barrack at Brading.
Mr. Robsonrose to second the motion, and at the same time to express some astonishment at the conduct of the noble lord throughout the whole of this business. Feeling it to be his privilege and right, as a member of parliament, to call for certain documents, respecting the extravagant expenditure of public money, he had given 4 days notice of his intention to move for those documents, that there might be no intention imputed to him of wishing to take the house by surprise. He accordingly made his motion, which he prefaced by such observations as he thought could leave no doubt upon the mind of any gent. who heard him, as to the object of his motion, and the intention with which he meant to follow it up. The noble lord thought proper to resist his motion, and to vote for the previous question; but now, when the extravagance of the barrack department, and the extraordinary opposition of the noble lord to his motion for papers to prove that extravagance, were in the mouth of every man who walked the public streets, the noble lord himself moved for a list of those very documents, which he verily believed was a copy of the identical motions which had been refused upon a former night. Really he thought it but reasonable to expect, that the noble lord's motion this day would have been accompanied by some apology for a conduct so unaccountable.
Lord Henry Pettyanswered, that for the house he should certainly offer no apology for refusing, on such grounds as it thought fit, to comply with the motion alluded to; and for himself he thought it sufficient to state, that he was not, on the former night, made acquainted with the hon. gent.'s object, so as to justify him in assenting to his motion. He now was acquainted with the purposes of his motion, and therefore moved to produce the papers in question.
Mr. Robsonrose to explain, but was proceeding to a length which occasioned a general cry of chair! chair! upon which, the speaker reminded the hon. member of the order of the house, and he sat down.—The motions were then agreed to.

WEST-INDIA ACCOUNTS BILL.
Lord Henry Pettypursuant to his notice given upon a former day, of a. motion for instituting a new commission of enquiry into the system of military expenditure in the West-India islands, rose now for the purpose of bringing it forward. He said, that although the immediate object of the motion he intended that night to propose, was the repeal of the act now in existence for instituting commissioners for enquiring into the system of military expenditure in the West-India islands, he hoped it would pot be thought obtrusive by the house, nor altogether irrelevant to the great topic of general enquiry into the expenditure of the state for some years past, that he should take that opportunity of stating the outlines of the measure now in the contemplation of his majesty's government to bring forward, for a purpose so important and desirable; and if, in so doing, he should find it necessary to trespass at some length upon the attention of the house, he should feel too high a respect for the justice and character of parliament, to suppose that any apology was necessary on his part for calling the attention of a British house of commons to one of its most sacred, important, and indispensable duties, namely, that of examining into the expenditure of the public money. In calling, then, the attention of the house to this subject, he should feel it necessary to advert to the modes by which the public accounts were heretofore examined and controlled. Previous to the establishment of the board of commissioners for this purpose, instituted under the auspices of a late right hon. gent. whom he had succeeded, the important office of examining and auditing the public accounts of the receipt and expenditure of the nation, was vested in two officers of the crown, and so continued down to the year 1785. But those officers, like many others, were charged with duties so far beyond the reach of their exertions, and vested with powers so inadequate, that although their services were not to be deemed as entirely useless, they were certainly very inefficient. The noble persons who had then, for some time, held those
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official situations (lord Bute and lord Sondes), although they remembered tolerably well that there were salaries to be received, yet, in process of time, forgot that there were also duties to be performed; and though they never omitted regularly to receive the salaries attached to their situations, their official lassitude sunk at least into a total neglect of those duties. The consequence was, that, the business being now much in arrear, the accounts, which accumulated during the progress of the American war, became so complicated, and expanded to such an extent, as to impress strongly upon the minds of the legislature and the public, the necessity of some more efficient plan of investigation. Foremost to participate in this feeling, the late right hon. gent., then at the head of the finances, formed the project of instituting commissioners to enquire into the public accounts, The defect which had so long prevailed on this point was too obvious to escape the observation of his luminous mind. He saw that the auditors, whose duty it was to examine, had no authority to demand the production of accounts in any department. The parties concerned came forward, or held back, entirely at their own option; and the fees of the officer were not in proportion to the vigilance he exerted in the investigation, but to the number of accounts he dispatched; consequently the officer who could most speedily get through the greatest number of accounts, had the greatest share of credit with the applicant, and of course the greatest share of emolument, as that, in a great measure, consisted of a poundage upon the amount of the bills. Every account that came to them was dispatched without any other examination than the total of the marginal figures. The right hon. gent. therefore, felt it indispensably necessary to rescue the accounts of the country from such a state of confusion, and the public expenditure from the endless liability to fraud and peculation, to which it was exposed; and he therefore brought in this bill to suppress the offices of joint auditors held by the two noble persons before alluded to, and to institute a new board of commissioners of accounts. But notwithstanding the Herculean labours encountered by the gentlemen who composed that board, and notwithstanding the immense mass of public accounts through which they waded, yet under the various vicissitudes in which the country

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had been since involved, such an arrear of unexamined expenditure had accumulated, as to render it absolutely necessary that some system of examination should be instituted, to draw the national accounts out of the contusion in which they now stood, and, if possible, to bring up the arrear which had been so long growing, and had at length arrived at a magnitude scarcely credible. Besides the five commissioners of accounts who were appointed under the bill to which he alluded, two other commissioners, totally distinct, were appointed to investigate the military accounts; but here again accumulation had so completely outstripped research and industry, that the principal share of the arrears had accrued under that head. For that system of controul over military expenditure, (and it was much to be lamented it had ever fallen into disuse,) this country was indebted to lord Godolphin. Of the system established by that wise minister, so highly important and useful to the country at that day, he should make no apology for reading a short outline. The commissioners then, or, as they were more properly called, the comptrollers of military expenditure, took cognizance of all monies issued from the treasury for military purposes, and also of the expenditure in every way. They were made parties to all contracts formed for military purposes, and they were bound to report to the treasury the state of the expenditure from time to time, all frauds which they should discover, and audit and countersign all military accounts, the same as all other comptrollers. When those offices were constituted, it was thought a hard measure to make the same men auditors of accounts, in cases of expenditure carried on under their own control and direction; nevertheless it was deemed an useful one, as it rendered the bond of responsibility still stronger. But, though it appeared, that, under the plan instituted by a late right hon. gent., an endeavour was made to establish a controul over the army expenditure, under the authority of persons appointed for that purpose, yet the effect of that authority had, in a great degree, ceased; the persons entrusted with the duty, very seldom reported the abuses which had accrued; and at length their authority fell so much into lassitude and negligence, that large issues of public money had been made for the service of the army, from time to which ought to have been submitted
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to them, according to the original rules of their institution, but of which they had no Cognizance whatever. He alluded to sums issued for hospital stores and field works, which always form a very extensive branch of the military disbursements, and for which, during six successive years in the late war, a sum of not less than 700,000 l. annually was paid to a Mr. Trotter; and such was the zeal and industry of that ingenious gentleman, and such the variety of avocations in which he was desirous of distinguishing himself for the service of the public, that he was, at one and the same time, the manufacturer of some of the articles of stores, the purveyor of other articles, the contractor for others, the comptroller of the expenditure, and filially the auditor of his own accounts; besides, generously feeling that after so much zeal and industry exerted for the accommodation of the country in his own person, he was entitled to some remuneration beyond the ordinary class of contractors, he charged 10 per cent. upon the whole expenditure, over and above all other profits upon the articles so furnished! Another head of account was that of Barracks, in itself an immense field of expenditure, and on which no less than nine millions had been expended in the course of the late war, no part of which bad been submitted to the cognizance of comptrollers; and though the military commissioners had it in charge to investigate this department, yet so embarrassed were they in their proceedings, by the complicated mass of other accounts through which they had to struggle, that no part of the proceedings of the barrack department had yet been looked into. It was found also, that by the principal persons in several departments, many large sums had been issued to clerks and inferior persons in office for Minor disbursements, of the expenditure of which no account had been passed for years, nor any regular communication made to the chief officer. Such a state of accumulation in the unchecked accounts called loudly for the immediate adoption of some remedy; and the more so, as already, at two different times, thirty-five assistant clerks had been added to the establishment of the commissioners of accounts, without attaining the end so much desired, and therefore partial remedies must now give place to a system more extensive and efficient. Not only in the expenditure at home and in Europe had these arrears accumulated, but in the West

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Indies also, where the abuses were so glaring, that in 1800 it was found necessary to send commissioners thither, for the purpose of investigation; but even then, nothing effectual had been done, though the most enormous abuses were found to have prevailed. Last year, an attempt was made to remedy the evil, by the appointment of new commissioners, by whom, though certainly much had been done, still not enough was done; for though much had escaped the enquiry of the old board, yet instead of fetching up the arrears, the new commissioners were plunged still deeper in accumulation, and most enormous sums remained still uninvestigated. What idea must the house feel of the state of accounts, under the head of pay to the army, when they should be informed, that the very last account of army pay, examined by the board of accounts, was for 1782, and that no account of that nature had been since audited: being a period of 24 years from the close of the American war. The navy accounts were also very greatly in arrear, and the store accounts lay over since the period just mentioned, without any examination; all the expences of the last war were in the same predicament. The account of the expeditions to the Helder and to Egypt, and all the charges connected with them, as well as all subsidiary accounts with continental powers, were totally untouched to this hour. One of the great objections made against the principals in the department of expenditure, was their employment of supernumerary accountants, whom they entrusted with large sums of money for disbursement, and the progress towards examining those subordinate accounts was so tedious, that many persons had not accounted for the sums they had received until ten years afterwards, while a very large portion of them were unexamined, even to the present hour; nor had the existing board of treasury been able, with all their endeavours for three months past, to obtain a return even of the heads of such accounts to be examined. There were, besides, accounts under the examination of the old commissioners, to the amount of 167 millions, not nearly gone through; and also a sum of 58 millions, of which the account had not yet been explained. Add to this a sum of 150 millions, under the head of army pay, still untouched, as well as 80 millions of navy expenditure, and there would appear an aggregate sum of no less
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than 455 millions sterling, still unaccounted for, within the last 20 years, a sum almost as great as the whole national debt. These considerations, important and impressive as they were, had already called for the most serious investigation of his majesty's present ministers, and irresistibly argued the pressing necessity of a full investigation. He felt it scarcely necessary to represent to the house that danger to the credit and stability of the public resources, which must arise from such a circumstance as an accumulation of the public accounts for twenty years, and those the most productive in finance, and the most profuse in expenditure, that had ever occurred in any similar period of our annals; which accounts remaining wholly uninvestigated, with the utter impossibility that must arise, from the deaths of so many individuals concerned in those expenditures, of detecting the numberless frauds, or recovering the innumerable debts that must be due to the government through defaults or peculations; a speedy and efficient enquiry became necessary, not only for the sake of the public, but for the sake of the honest class of accountants themselves, whose situation, from their being liable to suspicion with the defaulter and the peculator, must be peculiarly distressing. It was a fact too notorious, that this enormous accumulation of unaudited accounts had long served as a shroud and a veil, behind which the most flagitious malversations had been screened from detection and punishment, while it hung, like a gloomy cloud, over the heads of honest and conscientious men, who were rendered unable, in the lapse of half their lives, to obtain a settlement of their accounts, and a final exculpation of their conduct. Among the many instances of this lamentable deficiency, was the late lord Macartney, a man whose character, for honour and integrity, would ever stand justly. high in the annals of his country. While he was governor of Grenada, during the American war, a sum of 70,000 l. stood charged as an expenditure under his administration; and though he survived to a very advanced age, he was never able to have his accounts passed; a great number of persons, from similar causes, and impediments thereby created, in obtaining balances due to them, had been prevented from making good their titles to estates purchased for them, and were thereby subjected to the most ruinous and embarrassing losses. Having gone

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through these statements, the noble lord next proceeded to submit the outline of his remedy for these glaring evils: In the first place, he said it was proposed to repeal both the acts under which the present commissioners of accounts were constituted, and to appoint, under another act, ten commissioners, for the purpose of auditing and controlling the army accounts; and the better to enable them to direct their investigations with effect, it was proposed to arm them with the authority, which the present commissioners had not, of compelling all persons, connected with the disbursements of public money, to furnish their accounts; these to be distinct from the West- India commissioners; and also of another distinct board of comptrollers of military expenditure, constituted upon a plan similar to that established under lord Godolphin, whose duty it would be to examine, in the first instance, all army estimates and accounts; to watch over the expenditure of military funds; to act as the confidential advisers of the board of treasury, in all applications of money for military purposes; to report such frauds as they should be able to discover; to have the power of calling before them all persons in any degree connected with the military expenditure, and of examining them upon oath. With respect to the ten commissioners of accounts, none of whom were to be members of parliament, it was proposed to separate them into three distinct boards, the one consisting of four members, and the other two, of three members each; those boards to have communication with each other, as they might find necessary for the general advantage of the examinations referred to them; but by no means to mix the objects respectively committed to them. The whole body of accounts in arrear were to be separated into three distinct periods. One of these boards to commence with the public accounts from, the first of December last, and to bring them up clear to the latest period. The next board to take up the investigation of the 167 millions now under enquiry; and the third, to take up the examination of all that body of other accounts that have never yet been called for. By this means, he trusted that the whole of that immense mass would be gone through with the utmost possible expedition, and the affairs of the country, in these respects, placed upon some regular and satisfactory footing. To the chief of each board, a re-
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sponsibility would be attached for the correctness of each account audited; for the want of which responsibility in the members of other boards, considerable disadvantages had arisen to the country. Distinctly from these, the accounts of general De Lancey would be brought up by two persons specially appointed for the purpose. In addition to this, he had to state, that the expence of these commissioners was not meant to be permanent, nor, in fact, to continue longer than the exigencies of the occasion required; and so soon as the dispatch of their respective tasks would admit, it was intended to reduce the number gradually to six, in which the members remaining of two boards would merge into the third, and aid them in expediting the completion of their enquiry. In case any member should die, government was not to have the privilege of a new appointment, without coming to parliament, and shewing that such appointment was necessary. Having now stated the measure which it Was the intention of his majesty's government to adopt, with regards to the general accounts of the country, the noble lord proceeded to make some observations upon the state of expenditure in the West Indies, the further investigation of which was the object of the motion of which he had given notice as for that day. In that quarter of the empire, notwithstanding all the exertions which had been made by the two successive boards of commissioners already appointed to examine and check the progress of profusion and fraud, still the system had continued to be carried on by the delinquents, under every species of crime that could be subservient to their purpose. Forgery, perjury, bribery, and every stratagem which fraud could devise, had been resorted to; and not content with false charges, false returns, and flagitious embezzlements, they had gone so far as to bribe the officers of his majesty's customs to sign false certificates, fraudulent invoices, and other such documents, in aid of their purposes; proofs of which had been detected, in one instance, to the amount of no less a sum than 80,000 l., and, in another, to the amount of 30,000 l. actually applied in bribery, to conceal frauds of an enormous extent. Recurring again to the subject of the home commissioners, he said, it was also intended to oblige them to report annually their progress; and to compel the auditors to pass every account referred to them within eighteen months;

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and, by every possible means, to render the audit of public accounts as prompt and efficient as possible. If the measure proposed should not be found amply sufficient for the purpose, then it would be felt the duty of his majesty's ministers to come to parliament year after year, for further aid and advice, until the end should be completely attained. The noble lord concluded, by moving for "leave to bring in a bill to provide for the more effectual examination of the expenditure of the public money in the West Indies, and for the better discovery of frauds and abuses therein."
Mr. Rosesaid, he did not mean to oppose the motion; but he thought it necessary to offer a few observations, in elucidation of some particular points. When the business of the public accounts was so much accumulated in the American war, as to throw the audit greatly into arrear, commissioners were appointed to examine, and report what measures should be taken to expedite the examination. That commission was entrusted to men of great abilities, who exerted themselves with becoming diligence; but it did not appear that any alteration in the mode of auditing the accounts was thought necessary, till the administration of his late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt), to whom the credit of that improvement was wholly due. As soon as the money was issued to the public accountants, it was from that time set down against them. There was, besides, a power to call for their accounts and vouchers, and to examine both with a strict attention. The fact was, the duty was suffered too much to devolve on the deputies; but that, too, was remedied by the bill of his right hon. friend. The comptrollers of the army accounts had been always in the habit of examining all the issues to the army; it was therefore fit and proper to make them parties to a final audit, with the objects of which they were, in many instances, so particularly conversant. It was not the noble lord who had first discovered, that the expenditure for hospital stores was not sufficiently attended to. He himself had mentioned it long since, and at the same time that there was an expence of 11 millions in the secretary at war's accounts unexamined and unenquired into. Thus, it was not Mr. Trotter alone that was in the situation of being his own comptroller, but the secretary at war. He was in the hearing of gentlemen, in whose presence he had mentioned this to his late right hon. friend;
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and traces of it would be found in the Pay-office. The noble lord had stated, that there were 500 or 600 millions of the public money not perfectly accounted for. He did not blame any Individual; but the fact was, that the delay of the examination of the regimental accounts by the secretary at war was the cause of half this arrear. With 40 clerks in this department of the War-office, he thought it strange, that these accounts were not made up. He would not say what these clerks were attending to, but he was sure they were not attending to that. The paymaster was placed in a most unpleasant situation by this deficiency, being called upon to issue money, when he was not sufficiently warranted, and whose loss and discredit might eventually fall on him. The other part of the expenditures, such as the navy, ordnance, and victualling departments, did not belong to the commissioners for auditing. Thus, then, the ostentatious statement of 500 or 600 millions in arrear, was reduced very considerably. The noble lord proposed three additional commissioners. He should be glad to appoint three and twenty, if that would expedite the audit. It had never been doubted, that the barrack accounts were subject to the audit. When general De Lancey had asked him whether they were, he answered positively, yes. Gen. De Lancey pleaded the king's warrant; he answered, that could not supersede an act of parliament. He had no objection to allow further powers to the auditors. If the auditors permitted their clerks to take fees, it was a great dereliction of duty. The commission of enquiry into abuses in the West Indies had been issued, because it was impossible these abuses could be investigated elsewhere. The commissioners had made their report, and it had been put into the hands of the then legal advisers of the crown. Every thing that could have been done was done. Whatever merit belonged to the newly-instituted measures, it belonged exclusively to his late right hon. friend. Till the accounts of the secretary at war were gone through, the pay-master could not possibly bring up his. One half of the arrear arose from the delay in the War-office. The auditors should have the same powers to call for and examine these accounts, that they had to call for and examine others. The responsibility of the secretary at war extended to all the money issued for the service of the army; and it was a most aw-

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ful responsibility in the present State of the accounts.
Lord H. Petty,in explanation, said, that he had stated it as one of the objects of the alteration, to compel the public accountants to bring in their accounts to be audited. It was not from the three new Commissioners, or even from twenty-three, that he Would expect much benefit, if there Were not an alteration of the principle and of the system.
Mr. Foxin answer to some allusion made by a right hon. gentleman, to his having supported the original auditors, lord Bute and lord Sondes, said, that he considered it not very fair to quote against any member of the house the speeches which newspapers might have put into his mouth about twenty years ago.
Mr. Yorkesaid, that he conceived the cause of the delay in examining the public accounts was, that the concerns of the country had grown too great for those arrangements which might have done twenty years ago. About 20 years ago, as he was informed, ten or twelve clerks were all that were kept in the War-office; whereas, at present, there were filly or sixty, and that number was found unequal to the business. Regimental accounts were things which required very minute and accurate examination; and there were now near 10,000 regimental accounts which were either totally unexamined, or examined in a very cursory manner. He did not, however, think that any blame was imputable to any body. if he were disposed to criticise the speech of the noble lord, he Would say, that it appeared rather to have been made with a view ad captandum vulgus. it appeared like catching at popularity, by suggesting blame when none was imputabla.
Mr. Secretary Windhamstated the manner in which accounts Were examined in the War-office, and in which Mr. Trotter's accounts had been examined. At the War-office, they only compared the account sent in with the vouchers, and only saw that the order was issued, and the articles furnished. This mode of examining accounts was very far short of what was now proposed by the noble lord.
Mr. Bathurstthought he Should be wanting in the duty he owed to those who had been employed in the War-office, when he was at the head of that department, if he were to hear it said, unanswered, that there were 30 or 40 clerks at the War-office,
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whose duty it was to examine those accounts, but how they employed themselves the right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) could not tell. He had witnessed the great zeal and activity of the persons employed in the War-office, and was convinced, that if the arrear increased, it was merely because it was impossible for them to get through all the business that came before them.
Mr. Rosein explanation, said, that he did not mean to say, generally, that the persons in the War-office neglected their duty; but only that this part of their duty, the examining of accounts, had not been performed.
Mr. W. Dundasvindicated the conduct of the persons employed in the War-office, who, as he conceived, strained every nerve in the execution of their duty; but the great increase of business was such, that the existing establishments were not equal to it.
The Secretary at Warconfirmed this statement, and said, that the difference between the business 20 years ago, when he had held the same situation, bore no more proportion to the business now, than that of the most inferior tradesman to the first-rate merchant.
Lord Castlereaghthought that the remarks of his right hon. friend (Mr. Rose) had been taken up in a manner which they did not warrant. What his right hon. friend complained of was, that the business had been arrested in the offices to which he had referred, which complaint had not been controverted; and therefore he thought the suggestion of his right hon. friend should be attended to.
Lord H. Pettyobserved, that the suggestion of the right hon. gentleman had been anticipated by the plan which he had just proposed.
Mr. Rosesaid, that Would not answer his purpose; what he wished Was to establish a complete audit.
Mr. Robsonrose to express his most hearty and sincere thanks to the noble lord, for having explained so ably the atrocious corruption which had been carried on for the last twenty years, in the expenditure of the public money. He hoped and trusted the noble lord would appoint a fourth commission, to enquire into and return the names of those members of the different administrations which had, for the last 20 years, suffered such monstrous abuses and corruption to exist. He hoped, however, that since the noble lord had taken it up,

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he would endeavour to prevent the like from happening again. There must be great blame somewhere, and he hoped the chancellor of the exchequer would take care to trace it to those who had incurred that blame.—The question was then put, and leave was given to bring in the bill.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The house resolved itself into a committee of supply, to which were referred the papers presented on the 15th by the secretary at war.
The Secretary at Warthen rose to move his resolutions grounded on those estimates. The right hon. gent., in many parts of his speech, spoke in so low a tone, that it was impossible to hear him distinctly. The estimates of the present year differed, he said, but little in their amount from those of the preceding year. He could not withhold his tribute of praise from the illustrious Commander in Chief, under whose auspices the army had been raised to its present excellent state; and which it was the object of his majesty's government to preserve, and, if possible, to augment. In preparing the estimates for the present year, they had turned their attention to what all men, conversant in military affairs, knew to be one of the great leading principles of economy, and that was to make the disproportion between the real effective army, and the number voted, as small as possible. If it did not appear in the present estimates that there was a considerable diminution of expence, it was because many augmentations had taken place in the course of the last year, particularly in the cavalry, the ordnance, and the waggon-train, a considerable diminution in the expence of which was now proposed. In the cavalry, the regiments were to be reduced from 1000 to 800. The foot-guards were to be reduced from 140 men a company to 130, and the waggon-train was to undergo a diminution of 1728 men. The difference which this would make in the estimates of the present year Would be as follows: saving, by reductions in cavalry, 255,000 l.; ditto, foot-guards, 18,000 l.; ditto, waggon-train, 90,000 l.; total saving by reductions, 363,000 l. In the whole of the estimate (including the volunteers), there would be a diminution of 934,192 l.; from which, the diminution With respect to the expence of volunteers was subtracted, which amounted to 472,000 l., there would remain 462,192 l. as the total diminution of expences, in consequence of the reductions to be made.
General Tarletonrequested the right hon. gent. to state the items which made up this total sum. He could understand how the 363,000 l. might be saved by the reductions in the cavalry, the foot-guards, and the waggon-train; but he could not see what was to swell this sum to 934,192 l.
The Secretary at Warcontinued, and said that he hoped, in the course of his statement, to satisfy the hon. general. He should first proceed to state the total amount of our effective force at home and abroad, including the troops serving in India; and the second battalions. He should take their number at the following periods: 1st of January 1806, 240,953; 1st of May 1806, 250,994; making an increase of 10,041 men. It appeared, therefore, that while our army was increased by above 10,000 men, the expence of it would be diminished by near half a million. His majesty's government might therefore take credit for having provided an army on much cheaper terms than their predecessors. After the head of guards and garrisons, the next head which presented itself was, that of the regiments serving in India; but, as the East-India company paid the whole expence, he should not state them in the estimates. Next came the recruiting establishment, for the regiments which came under the same observations. The next head was, the recruiting staff contingencies for the supply of the army. This had been estimated last year at 50,000 l. recruiting establishment, 50,000 l.. contingencies, and 25,000 l. for the recruiting establishment in Ireland. The same sum would be Sufficient for the present year, although a somewhat greater proportion should be allowed for the recruiting establishment in Ireland. In the next head the hon. general (Tarleton) would find some of those reductions which he had been looking for, and that was in the general staff of the army. The estimated reduction was 54,553 l., but the real reduction would be considerably more, and would, as he supposed, amount to 90,000 l. This difference would proceed in a great measure from the discontinuance of the Brigadier-Generals to inspect the volunteer corps, who were in future to be inspected by more subordinate officers. There would be also a reduction in the expence of the militia, on account of the number who entered from the militia into the regular army. The next estimate he had to state, With great pleasure, was respecting the volunteers

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He hoped this statement would do away the unfounded alarm which had prevailed very generally about the supposed intention of government towards the volunteers. It would shew that as ample a provision was made for keeping up that body as was consistent with the rules of economy. The chief difference was with respect to the volunteer officers. It was intended that for the future they should not in any case have the command of field officers of the line. When he recollected how zealously and meritoriously those gentlemen had come forward in the defence of the country, he could hardly believe there was a single volunteer officer who would be dissatisfied at not being allowed the command over officers who had been regularly bred. The estimates for the volunteers were as follow: for the last year, 1,600,000 l.; for the present, 1,028,000 l.; total of saving, 572,000 l. This sum included 132,000 l. for clothing, which would fall in after the present year. The right hon. secretary then read the different items which formed the total sum at which he reckoned the saving in the expences for volunteers: among the principal items was 298,000 l. to be saved by discontinuing the permanent duty; 50,000 l.; by discontinuing the ten days' exercise when permanent duty was not required; and for discontinuing the matching guinea, 198,000 l. He also stated other reductions that would take place from reducing the pay of the drill serjeants from 1s. 6d. a day to 2s. 6d. per week; as also in the expence of the field-officers. After a few general observations, he moved his first resolution, which was, "That 121,529 men should be voted for the regular army of the united kingdom, from the 25th of June till the 24th of December, both inclusive."
General Tarletoncommented upon several parts of the statement of the right. hon. secretary. It was intended, it seemed, very much to reduce the cavalry. This measure he highly disapproved of. The late government had added two troops to each regiment of cavalry, and in so doing he thought they had acted most wisely. British cavalry enjoyed a high and deserved reputation. They would be found most useful either in defence of our own country in case of invasion, or in any foreign expedition that might be determined upon; and he therefore characterised their reduction as a very extraordinary proceeding. The mode by which the right hon. secre-
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tary had calculated the expence of the army, if the late ministers had continued, was unfair. With regard to the diminution of the waggon-train, the propriety of this was, under any circumstances, questionable; and, until the establishment of some large central depôt, he thought such a diminution highly inexpedient. Above four months had elapsed since the 21st of January, when the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Windham) had come down to the house, and declared, that such was the dangerous situation of the country, that four days ought not to be allowed to pass without the interposition of some effective measure, tending to increase our military strength, and to put our regular army on a better footing. What had the present ministers done after this declaration? They had lived like drones, on the collected stores of their predecessors. To the able arrangements of the late administration, the country owed every advantage that it had derived since the present administration came into power. To that administration was to be attributed the glorious victory at St. Domingo. To that administration was to be attributed the capture of the Cape of Good Hope. And here he would observe, that notwithstanding the brave and successful exertions of the officers who commanded in that expedition, notwithstanding they had effected a landing in the face of a superior force, and had beaten that force, yet the thanks of the house had not been voted to them, simply, he was convinced, because the plan on which they had acted originated with the late administration. The present Board of Admiralty had not chosen to reward sir Home Popham for his services on that occasion, because that gallant officer was not a favourite with certain persons out of the house. To the measures adopted by the late administration, was likewise to be attributed the recent capture of the Marengo and the Belle Poule. In fact, although he trusted that the country would yet derive some advantage from the exertions of his majesty's present government, still nothing was more certain than that hitherto nothing had resulted from them. He had been accused of entertaining unreasonable expectations. Those expectations were grounded on the speeches of the right hon. secretary for the war department, when he was on the opposition side of the house;—speeches which naturally induced the country to look for a new military era, as soon

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as that right hon. gent. came into power, to expect from him another harvest of Cadmus. Four months however had elapsed since that event, and nothing had been done. It was above two mouths since the right hon. gent. made his long military speech in the house; what had ensued? Let any one candidly examine the conduct of the present ministry in military affairs, and he would find no great cause of satisfaction or confidence. In the first place, on the motion of a noble lord, a very unconstitutional grant of 18 millions and a half had been voted for, the army in that house, before the distinct appropriation which was intended to be made of that sum, had been explained. Then the army estimates were brought forward for two months, and then they were brought forward for another month. The mutiny bill too was first passed for two months, and again passed for one month. All these acts were no very striking indications of the talents and foresight of his majesty's present ministers. All that the right hon. gent. had done was to destroy the Additional Force act, and by so doing he had "thrown away a pearl richer than all his tribe." He would not touch at present upon the gigantic subject of the regular army; but would merely make a few observations on the volunteer system, The right hon. secretary at war had complained, that great misrepresentation had taken place of what his right hon. friend, the secretary for the war department, had said of his intentions with regard to the volunteers. He did not know where this misrepresentation originated. The gentlemen who reported the proceedings of the house for the newspapers, were generally better inclined to a new administration than to a new opposition, and were much more likely to give the speech of the right hon. secretary with correctness, than the speeches of the gentlemen who sat on the same bench with himself; and he believed that the sentiments and observations of the right hon. gent. had been very fairly stated to the public. He could not but notice that a considerable change had taken place in the tone of that right hon. gent. since he had attended the great civic feast at Guildhall, when the toast of "The volunteers of England" was given, proving the truth of the old saying, "In vino veritas." From that moment, the tone of the right hon. gent. had been much lowered on this subject. The effect had subsequently been increased by certain popular resolutions; and if, after all this, his former spirit should
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revive, a message might perhaps occasion, his dismission from his majesty's service. The hon. general commented with great severity on the speech which the right hon. gent. had made in support of the bill for the repeal of the Additional Force act. That speech contained infinite wit, humour, and vivacity, and from any indifferent member would have been very proper, and very entertaining; but, coming on such an important subject from the secretary of state for the war department, he could not but consider the levity with which it abounded, as in the highest degree indecorous. With regard to the proposed abolition of the general inspecting officers, for the purpose of substituting the lords tenants of counties, he considered such a change as very injudicious; and on this subject he was sure that he might safely appeal to the opinion of all who had any connection with volunteer corps. Emulation was excited in the present mode, which would, by the proposed plan, become diminished, if not extinct. Nor was he a greater friend to the proposed abandonment of permanent duty. As an officer, he declared that he thought permanent duty most essential to the volunteer system. In the district he commanded; volunteers were put on permanent duty. under proper inspection, for 15 days; and so great was the influence of example, that although they appeared somewhat awkward when they first entered the field, before the time was expired they were fitted for military duty. What were the returns on the table? 200,000 volunteers were reported as fit for duty in England only ; of which,. 100,000 were represented as in a, sufficient state of discipline to act with troops of the line. After all the lavish promises, nothing had been performed; the right hon. gent. must leave his airy schemes and metaphysical eccentricity, for wise projects, and sound sense, or the country would be left defenceless.
Mr. Whitbreadobserved, that the hon. general had talked of every thing but the army estimates. He had even introduced naval subjects, and had gone out of his way to cast a particular blame on his noble friend at the head of the admiralty, and a general blame on the whole of his majesty's ministers, whom he had chosen to term drones. He would ask whether the noble lord (H. Petty), from whom the house had just heard such a display of talents, had shewn himself a drone? Was his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Fox) a drone? Was

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the right hon. secretary of state for the war department a drone, because, duly considering the magnitude and importance of the subject, he had not proceeded so rapidly with his military plans as the impatience of the hon. general prompted him to expect? Adverting to the hon. general's supposition, that his right hon. friend's tone with regard to the volunteers had been considerably lowered, since his visit to the city; he declared, that he should think him very unworthy the situation which he held in his majesty's councils, if he allowed a toast given by a worthy alderman to bias his determination on the great military system which he had in contemplation. But did he so? was his tone altered? On the contrary, all the statements made tonight by the right hon. secretary at war, of the cessation of the June allowances, of the reduction of the expences of drill serjeants, and of the abolition of permanent duty, were so many strong proofs that the tone of his right hon. friend remained unchanged. With regard to the observations made by the hon. general on this last proposition, namely, the abolition of permanent duty, great as was his faith in the military skill of that hon. general, he could easily suppose, that his right hon. friend had consulted officers who were as competent to decide on questions of this nature. The fact was, that several volunteer corps which had never been on permanent duty, had been returned by the inspecting field officers as fit to act with the line, which evinced that permanent duty was not indispensable to the attainment of discipline. The hon. general had misunderstood one part of the right hon. secretary's statement. He had not said, that lords lieutenants were to be substituted for the present inspecting field officers of volunteers; but he had expressly said, that three major-generals were to be appointed to that service; and thus a great part of the useless machinery attached to the inspection of the volunteers, would be got rid of. He repeated his former sentiments on the rank of volunteer officers, and declared, that in his opinion, no rational man who now commanded a volunteer corps, but must be rejoiced at being relieved from the responsibility which his having a command over regular officers above the rank of captain, had hitherto imposed on him.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he did not intend to enter generally into any discussion on the military policy of the country: he rose
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principally to propose a few questions deserving some reply, at a time when the country was in so peculiar a situation, with the eyes of all Europe directed to it, after the extravagant pretentions of his majesty's ministers, on the scheme of military improvement. He perfectly agreed with his hon. friend, that the house was at present placed in a very peculiar situation, as well in its own view as in that of the country and of Europe, after all that had already taken place. When his majesty's present ministers had come into office, it was the general impression in the country that some fundamental change would be immediately made in the military system of the country, and he left the house to judge how far such a fundamental change was consistent with the efficient state of the army, as represented in the statements of the secretary at war. So full, however, had the house and the country been of the expectation that some such fundamental change was to be brought forward, that he and his friends had suggested, with a view to afford the right hon. gent. an opportunity of maturing the measure, the expediency of passing a mutiny bill for two months. The suggestion had been acted upon, and he begged the house now to recollect in what a situation it was placed. These were the fourth military estimates which had been voted this year, and in order to give effect to these estimates, a fourth mutiny bill was to be passed. He asked whether any government had ever exhibited such extraordinary an extraordinary instance of inefficiency? One might have expected that these fourth estimates should contain some new matter, some indication of the measures which the right hon. gent. meant to produce. Yet, stange as it was and must appear to every gentleman in the house, the estimates now proposed to be voted, differed in nothing from those that had been voted in March, except in the amount of saving from the reduction of the cavalry. He agreed with his hon. friend (general Tarleton), that it was desirable to keep the cavalry on a respectable footing; but, from the difficulty that had been felt in maintaining that body on the full establishment, he asserted that it was the intention of the late government to reduce them, according to the plan now proposed, to 800 rank and file each regiment. After all the parade, or rather farce of such frequent delays in the production of the promised measures, the present proceeding would have the effect of

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shewing to Europe, that there existed an extreme jealousy between the parliament and the government, when such short mutiny bills were passed. The present measure was not calculated to give the parliament or the country any idea of what the principles or prominent features of the proposed measures were. And here he begged to ask the secretary at war for information respecting the subject of the volunteers, with regard to whom, considerable apprehensions had been excited by the speech of the right hon. gent., and notwithstanding the efforts, that had since been made to explain away the impression produced on the public by that speech, the statements made that night were not calculated to remove them: but on this subject he should take another opportunity of speaking more at large, and in consenting to vote the estimates in this instance, he begged not to vote them otherwise than as matter of account, and not to preclude himself from reverting to the subject on a future occasion. The economy under the head of volunteer expenditure he considered as a contemptible consideration. The object of the right hon. gent. seemed to be to breaks down that respectable body, and to get rid of them as an effective part of the military defence of the country. When the right hon. gent., in the present instance, affirmed that they had no designs upon the volunteer system, but rather wished to support it, they were only defending themselves against the indignant feelings of the public. But, as the right hon. gent. had intimated to the house, on the day when the noble lord near him (lord Howick) had brought forward his propositions for an increase of pay to the navy, from the admiral down to the seaman, his intention to advise his majesty to recommend a similar augmentation of pay to the army, some estimate of the amount of such augmentation ought to have been submitted to the house, and, if any substantive object, beyond the unnecessary parade of such an intimation was intended, the noble lord would have to provide for it by a supplemental budget. If this were to have been matter of separate consideration, the estimates now proposed might as well have been submitted to a final decision in March last. The expence of the projected training, which he looked upon as the most burthensome part of the plan, ought to have been included in the estimates. Was the house ever to be informed of the mode of proceeding of the right
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hon. gent.? On the first day of the session, at a critical period, the consideration of an important question could not be deferred beyond the day fixed; and yet four months had now elapsed since the gentlemen had come into office, and the only thing they had done, the only symptom of life that had appeared during their ministerial existence, was to bring forward the repeal of the Additional Force acts, by a bill, containing the detestable clause relative to the re-payment of the penalties. The Irish chancellor of the exchequer, had also brought in a bill for allowing the Irish militia to volunteer their services to this country; and as that was a measure which he had himself supported, the hon, baronet had his thanks for it; though from every thing the right hon. gent. had said on the subject formerly, it did not appear to have met his approbation. If government could make up their minds on the subject, and he thought they were at present trembling between the difficulties of the country and the projects into which they had rashly precipitated themselves, he implored ministers, and particularly the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), to inform the house what proceedings he meant to adopt, and not to bring forward their measures one after another, whereby the attention of the house might be exhausted. He asked of his majesty's ministers also to state, when they meant to bring their measures forward, and to allow sufficient time between their introduction and their final decision. He wished them to give the house time to consider a subject, which had taken them two months to make up their minds upon, after the disgrace and ignominy of coming so often with estimates to parliament. He did not think it fair for ministers to take credit for economy at the expence of the late government. The reduction in the cavalry they would have carried into effect, but the reduction of the waggon train he disclaimed. The statements were founded on a false principle of economy. He called on the right hon. gent. to state in what parliamentary shape he meant to bring forward his plan for limited service, which was to alter the whole system of the army, whether in a separate act, or in the mutiny bill; and if in the latter shape, he trusted he would bring it forward in a manly manner in the face of the bill, and not attempt to introduce it sculking into the bill at a late stage of its progress. He could not see what ministers

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had done since they had been in office, except explain away the impressions produced by the speech of the right hon. gent.
Mr. Secretary Windhamsaid, the noble lord had railed in a very good style; his terms were strong, and well selected for his purpose. Had there been as much sound argument as there was coarse abuse, it would have been one of the most powerful harangues that ever was delivered in parliament. At the same time he could not help saying, that the points in his speech, to which it was necessary to make:any reply, were but few in number, and required but little exertion of mind to answer. It was curious to notice the manner in which the noble lord, and the hon. general beside him, happened to support each other in opposition. The noble lord concurred with the hon. general, in condemning what he called a false economy with respect to the arrangement of the cavalry; and yet he claimed credit for the contemplation of a similar arrangement on the part of the late ministry. Now it was impossible that the noble lord's argument upon this subject should cut both ways; the door must be either shut or open. As to the noble lord's allusion to the sentiments uttered by him (Mr. W.) on a former day respecting the volunteers, he had only to state, that the sentiments ascribed to him by the noble lord and others were materially different from those which he had really expressed. Any opinion the house had heard from him on the occasion referred to, still remained completely unchanged, and the misrepresentations of his opinions which had gone abroad should not disturb him, They must pass away with the common calumnies of the day. If asked what he meant to do with the volunteers, he would answer—to leave them precisely where they were, with some exceptions which could not be injurious to their efficiency, them character, or their feelings, while they must tend to the public benefit. The volunteers were not to be deprived of their adjutants, their serjeant-majors, or their drill-serjeants, who were material to their discipline. If it were proposed to impose any burthen, or offer any offence to the volunteers, then the clamour raised upon the subject might be excuseable. Instead however, of calling upon them to be more frequent in their attendance on parade, or perform an increased duty, it was proposed to remit their attendance, and call upon them to do duty much less frequent y than
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heretofore. How then could the clamour against the proposed arrangements be at all justified? With regard to the noble lord's,assertion, that the whole of the plan he had the honour of submitting to the house should be taken into consideration altogether; he protested against the justice of that assertion. For, although he had thought proper to open the plan altogether, it did not follow that the several parts of that plan might not be separately considered. In deed, it was in fact right and necessary that these parts should be carried into execution seriatim. To the question put, by. the noble lord, as to the course of proceeding meant to be followed upon the measures under consideration, he was ready to answer, that the point of enlisting for a limited term would be first submitted to the house. Of this project, one part of it was intended to be introduced in the shape of a clause in the mutiny bill, and the other would be proposed in a separate act relative to the arrangements for Chelsea Hospital. In the first part it would be obvious to the house, that the purpose was to leave as much as possible to the direction of future governments, in order that they might be at liberty to form any new engagements with the soldiery which might be deemed advisable. But the latter part respecting Chelsea, it was proposed to make a permanent regulation. The other part of his project, relative to the training of the people for the militia (with respect to which he only meant to prolong the suspension of ballot already existing) and the volunteers, would naturally follow the consideration of the project he referred to. It was his intention to bring forward the first and most material part of the system he had described before the holidays, in order that there should be a full opportunity of examining it during the recess, and at an early day after he would propose to bring forward the discussion.
Mr. Percevalcontended, that he had not misrepresented the right hon. gent., whose subsequent explanations had, however, materially softened the sentiments he had originally expressed. He insisted that the right hon. gent. had declared himself an enemy to the ballot, insomuch that when he found himself under the necessity of resorting to it, to enforce his training system, to avoid the odious word, he had preferred to use the word "lot," leaving out the syllable "bal." When it was recollected that the right hon. gent. had com-

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pared the volunteers to painted cherries Which none but simple birds would take for real fruit, and that he had compared those who had encouraged the volunteers to children planting sticks and then supposing they had planted trees, it would not be deemed uncharitable in them to conclude that he was not friendly to the volunteers. The right hon. gent. had said he had used the Word "relax" for "remit," with respect to the discipline of the volunteers, but it mattered hot which he used, as either would be ruinous to the system. It would be an injury to the right hon. gent to suppose that he had been misrepresented with respect to the volunteers; because, if his object were to destroy their institution, his measures were rational; whereas, if he Was inclined to encourage and support them, his measures were irrational, they being calculated to produce their destruction.
Mr. Secretary Foxrose just to say a few words on what had fallen from the learned gent. who had just sat down. It was not necessary to review what had taken place in a former debate respecting the misrepresentations of the sentiments of his right hon. friend. There was no great grammatical difference, he admitted, between "relax" and "remit," but they might be used so as to have a far different import. It was rather extraordinary that the use of the word "relax" by his right hon. friend, should still be adverted to, especially as on the very day when he had so expressed himself, he had explained what he had intended to say. It reminded him of an old saying, "that there was sometimes no better way of uttering a falsehood than in the words of truth." In the long parliamentary experience he had had, he had never known any speech so misrepresented, and so industriously circulated, as that of his right hon. friend. The misrepresentation had been circulated over the whole country. He had had correspondence on the subject from various quarters. Amongst others be had a letter from a respectable gentleman, which would throw some light on the question. The letter adverted to Mr. secretary Windham's plan, and a supposed prevalent opinion that the volunteers were of no use whatever; which the writer denied, asserting, that only three things were wanting to make them a valuable, serviceable, and efficient force,—to take away permanent duty, the June allowances, and the inspecting field-officers.
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Do all this, it was added, and you will improve the volunteers. Now, it happened that these were precisely the measures proposed by his right hon. friend, who had been represented as decidedly hostile to the volunteer system. The grand object of his right hon. friend had been to establish a regular military force, equal to the demands of the country; and if the volunteers could ever become such a force, then all the military bills which the house had, from time to time, passed, were in themselves unnecessary, and fraught with tyranny and oppression. But, in his opinion, a regular army, equal to the demands of the country, in the present situation of Europe, could never be formed without such means. The volunteers could only be considered as a subsidiary force; and it was certainly his wish that they should remain embodied, to assist in the protection of the country, notwithstanding the alterations that were proposed to be made in their system. No man had a higher respect for the volunteers than he had; and he should be extremely sorry were the proposed measures to have the effect of depriving the country of their services in that capacity; though he must continue to think that the proposed savings in that part of our military system were of great importance, and at the same time not calculated to do it any injury. With regard to his right hon. friend, he must say that, in his opinion, he was the best qualified for the office which he now held, of any man in the country; and he had no doubt, that not many years would elapse before the country in general entertained the same opinion. With respect to the levy-en-masse, it had been said that some estimate of the probable expence attending it should have been laid before the house. But calculations could not be accurately made respecting a measure which was perfectly new, and which it was also uncertain whether parliament would adopt. With regard to the time when the discussion of the plans of his right hon. friend should come on, he suggested that the report of the committee might be received the next day, and the mutiny bill might then be brought up and read a first time, and a second time on Friday next. On the first day after the recess, the bill might be discussed in a committee of the whole house, and particularly that clause of it which respected the limitation of service. Or, if this should be thought too early a day, he

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trusted that Friday se'nnight would not be objected to. On the whole, he considered the new system proposed, as not so much productive of immediate advantage, as calculated to promote the future good of the army, and to place it on a better footing; and he trusted that the present administration would, at no distant period, be acknowledged to have performed a great service to the country, if they should be so fortunate as to carry it into execution.
Mr. Canningentered at some length into a defence of what had fallen from his hon. and learned friend, and contended that he was not chargeable with those misrepresentations ascribed to him. With regard to the panegyric which the right hon. secretary had pronounced on his friend, it was rather curious to remark, that after he had delivered a similar encomium on an hon. gent. (Mr. Francis) intimately versant in the affairs of India, that hon. gent. had left the treasury bench, and seated himself on the opposite side of the house. He thought that the military plans were introduced too tardily, and now proposed to be discussed with too much precipitation. After the long delay which had taken place since their first proposal, people were now asking whether they would take place at all or not; and to fix on Wednesday next as the day for their discussion, would be taking the house by surprise, since many members would not have returned after the holidays, on that day. He wished also that it should be understood, when the discussion took place, that the whole system proposed should be brought under review. He suggested that the first Monday after the recess was the very earliest day on which the discussion could with any propriety come on. He entertained doubts whether a call of the house might not be expedient, preparatory to a decision on one of the most important measures that ever came before parliament, and in that case it could not come on in less than a fortnight, The protraction of the discussion which had already taken place, should not now be remedied by precipitation. He thought it would also have been but fair, that some estimate should have been laid before the Louse by the right hon. secretary, of the expence likely to be incurred by the additional pay to the army, and by the levy-en-masse. Were a statement of this expence to be laid before the house, he believed that those savings, for Which ministers took so much credit to
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themselves, would be nearly done away. It would appear that what was retained by the one hand was given away by the other. He ridiculed the idea of substituting three itinerant major-generals for inspecting the volunteers, in the room of those inspectors at present employed; and concluded with observing, that whenever the discussion on the clause in the mutiny bill should come on, he would take that opportunity of delivering his sentiments on the whole combined system.
Mr. Secretary Foxin explanation, said, that he would certainly take the sense of the house, whether the Mutiny bill should proceed to a committee on Friday se'nnight, if any opposition was made to that proposal. It was perfectly in the right hon. gentleman's option to debate the clause in what manner he pleased; but he must not be angry if he and his hon. friends should decline replying to any speech which he might deliver, that appeared to involve topics extraneous to that immediately before the house. Since the union with Ireland, no call of the house had taken place; and he could not see that it was called for by the present measure, in preference to others of equal importance that had been discussed in the house during the last session.
Mr. Yorkewas anxious that more time should be granted: for he was not aware of what clauses might be proposed in the Mutiny bill; or what was the ultimate decision of the right hon. gent. respecting the leading features of his plan. What was the term and limit of service that was to be proposed to men when enlisting? Were they to have the powers of claiming their discharge in time of war? Was it equally to affect the cavalry and artillery with the rest of the army? Was it to extend to the army now existing? Surely these were important and complicated questions, to the discussion of which gentlemen could not be expected to come prepared so soon as Friday se'nnight.
Mr. Secretary Windhamfully admitted the right of the right hon. gent. to put such questions, and replied, that the limitation of service was meant to apply to the corps of artillery, and the cavalry, as well as the infantry of the regular army. With regard to the period of war, and when on foreign service, he had proposed that an addition of six months to the stipulated term should take place; and it might, perhaps, be proper to give a still farther ex-

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tension of perhaps two or three years to this period in time of war. But he wished to have it always distinctly understood, that there was a period beyond which, even in war, the service of the soldier should not be extended. With regard to the inspection of the volunteers, he had at first stated, that they should be under the superintendance of the county-lieutenants, but he had not meant to exclude the inspection of military officers. Respecting additional pay to officers of the army, he thought it would be most proper to state his idea on that subject on a future occasion. It was one in which the house must be guided, not merely by its liberality, but also with a view to the great numbers, and the consequent great increase of expence; and, therefore, it would not be right to encourage too sanguine hopes.
Mr. Yorkewished for a clearer understanding of the right hon. secretary's views. At present he understood him that his plan of limited service extended to the cavalry and artillery, and was for seven years.
Mr. Windhamobserved, that the term of seven years did not apply to those branches.
Mr. Yorkeobserved, that he understood the extension in time of war was to take place for two or three years.
Mr. Windhamsaw no reason to think the original time stated by him would be altered, but that an extension in the power of the crown, in time of war, might be made without prejudice to the general effects of the measure. The time he had stated for the artillery was twelve years.
Sir James Pulteneywas of opinion that the volunteers would lose more by the decay of their discipline, than the country could gain by any savings proposed. He conceived that permanent duty was highly necessary to the improvemet of their discipline, and that some kind, of military inspection was also indispensible. As to the ballot, he was glad to find that it was not to be absolutely abolished, but he feared that even its temporary suspension would render it more difficult to resort to it again. As to the allowance for clothing to the volunteers, 30 s. was too little, and 20 s. wholly inadequate.
Mr. Hiley Addingtonobserved, that the allowance was only 20 s. from government, and that government could not have committed itself on that subject, though three years afterwards, if the situation of the country remained the same, the same allowance might be requisite. He could not
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understand how gentlemen could talk of the house being taken by surprise upon a ten days' notice, particularly when he recollected the same gentlemen proceeding last year on a twenty-four hours' notice, to the rescinding of the resolutions of the house.
General Tarletonwished to know what was intended respecting. the West-India regiments?
Mr. Rosestated that allowances much larger than 20 s. had been made to volunteers.
Mr. H. Addingtonsaid, that 20 s. was the whole of the August allowance.
Mr. Windhamsaid that 30s. was the allowance in June, and 20 s. in August; there was therefore no reduction.
Mr. Matthewssaid, that unless the allowances to the volunteers were kept up, nay increased, it was impossible the establishment could be kept up. At first, subscriptions were liberal, and the general zeal came in aid of the funds necessary for the support of the corps; but it could not be expected that the subscriptions would continue, or that gentlemen would again be at the very great expence they had incurred for the volunteers with which they were connected. How then was the difference to be made good, and how could the establishment last without provision for its maintenance?
Mr. Spencer Stanhopeconfirmed the observations of the hon. member, and said, that unless something was done to defray the expence, the volunteers must disband of themselves, though nothing else were done.
Mr. Rosesaid, it was impossible that corps should be supported in the manner they first were raised, and provided with funds. Twenty shillings in no case could clothe a man. He knew so by having tried in the cheapest manner; and coat, waistcoat, and breeches, independent of other. articles, cost 24 s. It was strange, therefore, to hear of confining the allowances, when the corps must be obliged to be disbanded for want of funds. And to this was added the discouragement held out by the plan proposed. Their feelings and their circumstances must operate to the overthrow of the system; and if the volunteers had not complained, it was because their officers had used their utmost efforts to induce them to wait, in the hope that some alterations would take place in the plan that had been opened to the house.
Mr. Windhamsaid, every body knew how the volunteers were raised and supported; but was it proposed that government should make up all the expence which would be required in consequence of the failure of other funds? Clear it was, from what had been said, that if the volunteers disbanded, it was by the force of circumstances, and not from any thing government had proposed.
Mr. Spencer Stanhopehad not meant to contend, that government should maintain the whole volunteers when their subscriptions failed; but it would be dangerous to let the whole disband themselves; and therefore an additional allowance, at least to some of them, was necessary. At the breaking out of any new war, our reliance must be on the volunteers, and therefore the spirit should be cherished and the system maintained.
Dr. Laurencesaid, it now clearly appeared, that those who had been so long extolling the volunteers, and charging others with undervaluing them, now admitted that the system would be at an end of itself, without large public aid: so it was not what government did, or proposed, that caused the volunteers to disband. It was expressly stated that they must disband, if they did not obtain support from the public purse.
Mr. Foxcould not but observe, that this was giving a new and important turn to the debate. It was no longer the plan and speech of his right hon. friend that had discouraged and disgusted the volunteers; but it would now appear, that if they are to receive only the same allowance that was granted them by the former administration, they must go right about and disband themselves. Was it then the plan of the right hon. gent. now no more, to have increased that allowance, and that under a conviction, that without such an increase the volunteers would not continue their services. Indeed, the former administration felt this difficulty; and Mr. Pitt, like every man of sense, must have foreseen what it would ultimately come to; but did the late administration come forward and propose such increase? He might therefore congratulate himself, and his right hon. friend, that, after all the hue and cry that had so industriously been raised against his measures, as tending to discourage and disband the volunteers, it now was confessed by those who reprobated them as so destructive of the volun-
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teer system, that this system was likely to dissolve, not because any such measures had been proposed by his right hon. friend, but because an increase of allowance was not to be made them; which increase had never been proposed or held out to them at any former period.
Lord De Blaquiereobserved, that though the want of means might tend to reduce the volunteer establishment, he did not think it could he denied, that certain of the regulations of the new plan (some of which he approved) would operate as discouragements to the volunteers, and to the subscriptions too, which otherwise might have come to their aid.
Mr. Spencer Stanhoperestated his former argument, that farther allowances must be made to the volunteer corps, if the system was to be kept up. And what was to be allowed, should be so apportioned as to keep, at least, part of the volunteers together. He gave an instance of the alacrity of his own corps in the West Riding of York, which, on a false alarm, mustered, and partly marched. 15 miles within, fifteen hours, and out of 600 men only 9 were absent. He said, that permanent duty was more agreeable to the volunteers than duty at home.
Mr. Matthewsrepeated, that it was necessary something should be done for the support of the volunteer corps, if they were to be kept up. He complained of a certain report from an inspecting officer, respecting the corps which he commanded, and which was printed and on the table. He said that it had been altered, and things put in, which were not in the original he had seen.
General Tarletonstated, that it was an error that had crept in, and he had taken care to have it corrected and announced in the district.
The Secretary at Warremarked, that the report alluded to had been printed from the originals sent to the adjutant-general's office, and if there was an error, it must be an error of the press.
Mr. Shaw Lefevresaid a few words about the reports of inspecting officers, some of which were offensive to the feelings of the volunteer corps.
Mr. Ryderknew the question of farther issue for clothing the volunteers had been under the consideration of the late government; but nothing was decided. It could not be doubted, however, that Mr. Pitt, who was so convinced of the utility of the

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volunteer establishment, would have taken measures to support it, if he had seen them necessary. At any rate, he would have done nothing to discourage them, or to injure their discipline, which the measure proposed unquestionably did. As to the expence, it would be found that the proposed train-bands would cost more than all the saving on the volunteers, without being so efficient.
Mr. Foxreplied, that he knew not what Mr. Pitt would have done; but he complained of the disingenuous mode of debating the business that was practised by gentlemen on the opposite side. If the plan proposed tended to destroy the volunteers, it was but fair to state that as an objection; but it was unfair to object to that as a fault of ministers which they had nothing as yet to do with, and was part of Mr. Pitt's system.
Mr. W. Smithsaid, in the place where he lived, it had long since been notorious, that if the volunteers did not get assistance, they must disband for want of funds.
Mr. Ellisondeclared, that the plans of the right hon. gentleman had caused the utmost disgust throughout the country and among the volunteers.
Mr. Windhamreplied, that if that effect had been produced, it must have been by misrepresentation.
Mr. Ellisonasserted, it was from what he had heard in the house, and what was circulated in the newspapers, and not by any misrepresentations.—The resolutions were then read and agreed to; and the house being resumed, the other orders of the day were disposed of.