Commons Sitting of 15 May 1806

MINUTES.
A message from the lords acquainted the house, that their lordships would proceed further with the trial of lord viscount Melville to-morrow, in Westminster Hall.— Mr. II.Thornton presented, pursuant to order of the house, an Account of all sums of money paid to the Sierra Leone company pursuant to grants of parliament; also an Account of the disbursement of said sums.—Mr. Williams presented the 13th report of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—The Irish Loan bill, and Irish Treasury Bills bill, were read a third time, and passed.—The Mutiny bill was read a third time and passed.— The speaker stated to the house, that he had received a letter from admiral Duckworth, dated the 1st of May, in answer to the vote of thanks of the house to himself, and the officers and seamen under his command. The letter was to the following purport: "Superb, off Cales, May 1. Sir; I have received yours of the 25th of March, conveying the highest honour that can be conferred on any officer in his majesty's service, the Thanks of the Imperial Parliament of his Country. However feebly I may be able to express the high sense

215
which I entertain of this high and distinguished honour, I certainly feel it deeply. The best return that I can make on this occasion for the proud distinction which the house of commons has conferred on me by its approbation of my conduct in the battle of the 6th of February off St. Domingo, is to request you to assure the house, that I shall shew my gratitude in the manner which will be most agreeable to them, and that is by using my best efforts in opposing the enemies of my king and country. They have done me a particular favour when they desire that I should communicate their thanks to the officers under my command, and no lesser favour when they desire that the captains of the several vessels should communicate to the seamen and marines the most honourable reward of their services, the thanks and approbation of the representatives of the nation. I beg leave to return my particular thanks to you for your congratulations, and the very handsome terms in which you have transmitted to me the approbation of the house. I have the honour to be, &c. &c. J. T. Duckworth."—The Secretary at War presented at the bar the Army Estimates for the current year. On his moving that the Estimates do lie on the table, the right hon. secretary acquainted the house that they contained the regular Estimates for the year, and added that it was desirable they should be taken into consideration on as early a day as possible. In order, however, to afford the gentlemen opposite an opportunity of considering the nature of these accounts, he should not propose an earlier day than Wednesday next. The usual course on such occasions was to suffer a week to elapse between the presenting and voting the estimates. That time would nearly intervene between this day and Wednesday, and he therefore trusted, that no objection would be made to voting the estimates on Wednesday, for which day he fixed his notice. The estimates were then ordered to lie on the table and the abstract of them, on the motion of general Tarleton, to be printed.

AFFAIRS OF INDIA.
Mr. Paullseeing a noble lord in his place (lord Morpeth), wished to know why the papers he had moved for respecting Bhurtpore, were so long delayed. He had first moved for. their production on the 11th of March, and finding the order of that day was not complied with, he moved, upon
216
the 13th of April, for a peremptory order. As the papers were by no means voluminous, and there had been such abundant time for their production, he should now make a further motion, unless he received a satisfactory reason for their delay.
Mr. Creeveysaid, that the board of controul had done all that was incumbent on them to do, when they served the India board with notice of the order that had been made by that house. He thought, however, that it must appear most unfair in that hon. gent. to charge the board of controul with wishing to keep back any information, when it was recollected, that they had not resisted one of the 98 motions for papers which the hon. gent. had made in the course of the last 4 months. He, however, in consequence of the conversation in that hope upon the subject, had sent to Mr. Ramsden, the secretary of the India board, to know the reason why those papers were not produced. He was informed by the answer, that there was at present a chasm in the consultations of Bengal, which probably the next ships would supply. Since that time, the hon. gent. had made 39 motions for papers, which went so far as to require a detailed account of the most minute expenses of the marquis Wellesley in his entertainments. At the same time, they were getting ready the papers relative to Surat, which were no less than 2000 close folio pages. While all these accounts were making out at the same time, it would not be wonderful if there should be some delay; this delay could not, however, be imputed, in any degree, to the board of controul, who were really willing to give him as many papers as he asked for. If these papers were not necessary, they had a mischievous effect, as they interfered with the making up of the official documents. There were two India budgets in arrear, and now in preparation, the papers connected with Which would afford a much better knowledge of the affairs of India,, than all the minute details moved for by the hon. gent.
Mr. Paullreplied, that he was entitled to these papers to enable him to substantiate against the marquis Wellesley, as important charges as ever were brought for ward in that house. He thought there was great delay in the production of all these papers.
Mr. Creeveydenied, that there was any delay that was not unavoidable.
Mr. Francisthought, that when a member moved for any papers, he was himself the best judge of their effect, and therefore was not obliged to take the advice of those who might be adverse to his views. He had seen a paper signed by twenty-three directors, who, amongst other things, complained that the marquis Wellesley did not register his papers regularly in the consultation. The chasm could however be no reason for not making a return. If no record could be found, the answer would be easier.
Sir Hugh Inglissaid, the principal reasons which occasioned the delay of those papers were, first, the voluminous nature of the papers which were ordered with respect to Surat; in the second place, there had no vessel left Bengal since the Medusa, which sailed in November. He had reason, however, to think that the first ship which arrived would supply the chasm that was complained of. He assured the hon. gent. that there was no wish to delay, and that the papers should be laid upon the table as soon as, in the circumstances of the case, they could be got ready.—Upon this explanation, and after a few words from Lord Morpeth, Mr. Paull consented to withdraw his motion. Mr. Paull then gave notice, that he should move, the next day, to rescind an order that had been made in the month of April, for the production of a protest of Mr. Bosanquet, relative to this transaction.

PROPERTY DUTY BILL.
The House resolved itself into a committee of the whole house upon the Property Duty Bill.
Mr. Alderman Prinsepexpressed his disapprobation of making the interest of Exchequer Bills the object of the direct operation of the tax, because these securities, being at present at a premium of only 2s. per cent. such a direct operation of the tax would have the effect of reducing then to a discount. Of exchequer bills in general, he should say, that though not an unusual nor an illegal mode of raising money, they were unconstitutional, and an impolitic anticipation of the resources o the country. He thought they amounted to a sacrifice of the commercial to the monied interest, and that a greater part of those now in the market, amounting to 27,000,000l. ought to be funded, in which case the monied interest would embark their capital in the funds, or employ it in aid u fair commercial speculations.
Mr. Francisdid not think that the direct operation of the tax would bring exchequer
218
bills to a discount, because they were payable at par at stated and no distant periods, might be paid into the exchequer for taxes, and were more handy and convenient for business than stock in the funds.
Mr. Vansittartdid not think that the mischief apprehended by the hon. alderman, would result from deducting the duty at the exchequer. The measure was to be prospective, so that it would not affect the present holders of securities of that description. As to the funding of exchequer bills, that would cause a loss to the public, as they could not at present be funded at a higher rate than 58l. per cent. in the three per cents.; and after the was, they perhaps might be funded at 70l. per cent. —After a few observations from Mr. Johnstone and lord H. Petty, the clause, on being amended by inserting the words "all securities chargeable with interest out of the public revenue," instead of "exchequer bills," was agreed to.
On the clause for levying the full amount of 10 per cent. on all income derived from funded and landed property, a long and interesting discussion took place.
Sir C. Pricewished to know, whether it was proposed to levy the tax on all income derived from the public funds, of whatever amount?
Mr. Vansittartreplied in the affirmative, and that he was not aware of any intention to make any alteration in that provision.
Mr. Garlandcontended, that this clause would produce much injustice and inequality. he put the case of a man having an income of 20 l. derived from land or the funds, and of another who made 70 l. a year by manual labour. The former would have to pay 20 S., while the latter paid nothing at all. He also thought, that the scale reached too low, and that 50l. a year should not pay any thing at all. He wished to know the reason why the tax was not increased in proportion to the increase of income, and why the man who had only 50l. a year, should pay as much in proportion as he that had 500l. One half of 50l. per annum would be necessary to purchase bread alone for a moderate family. He wished the banner exceptions to be Continued. The percentage on small incomes had been brought much lower than it had been by the late chancellor of the exchequer, while it remained the same on the larger incomes.
Lord H. Pettyinformed the hon. member, as he had uniformly stated before, that it was his intention in the formation

219
of the act, that a material distinction Should be made between those who were possession of any permanent property whether from land, the funds, or any other source, and those who had only a casual income derived from manual labour, or any other source which must necessarily vary, and which was not hardly worth two years' purchase. The reason was, that a mechanic, when he had raised 50, 60, or perhaps 70 l. a year by his industry, had exhausted all the sources or his subsistence, whilst those who were in possession of landed or funded property could by their industry, or perhaps by a reduction of their capital, be placed in circumstances which would admit of their paying the tax, with but very little comparative inconvenience. The hon. member had recommended to him to adopt a mode of raising the taxes of the rich, and exempting the poor. Of all the dangerous doctrines that could possibly be held out in a legislative assembly, there was not one that could possibly be more mischievous in its tendency, than that of equalizing all ranks of society by reducing the higher orders to a level with those of a different class, and depriving them of every comfort which they had a right to expect from their exalted situation.
Mr. Wilberforcewas afraid, that the severity of this clause would render the tax itself distasteful to the great body of the people. He considered it as something like a breach of the public faith, to place those in a worse situation who had incomes derived from funded property, than they were who derived their subsistence from labour. But according to this clause it would so happen, that the man who had 60 l. a year from funded property, would pay 6l. out of it, while another who had a salary to the same amount, paid only 10 s. But it was strange to observe, that when the income was 500 l. a year, for instance, then the sum contributed was exactly the same, whether derived from funded property or professional industry. On the whole, he wished the noble lord to re-consider the clause, and see whether something could not be devised less liable to the charge of inequality and injustice. He thought the present question of vast magnitude, and not to be decided in so thin a house. It was not too much then to ask a little time.
Sir Robert Buxtonrecommended the landed interest to the attention of the
220
committee, as gentlemen of landed property were, as the bill then stood, to be taxed in sonic cases 13, in others 17½ per cent. on their incomes.
Mr. Spencer Stanhopethought this tax;of 10 per cent. on all funded property, would fall peculiarly heavy on many of the lower classes of the people, but particularly servants, he would suppose a faithful servant had saved, after years of service, 100 l. and he places it in the funds. His master dies, or by any other casualty he became a servant out of place, and has an income of 3l. a year; whilst those in other different classes only pay for above 50 l. a year; there was great hardship and partiality in this. He asked if it was right to apply this new machinery to enable us to carry on the war? He thought not; and he was afraid it would raise a discontent in the country almost equal to disaffection. He questioned whether there were any two members in the house, not only in its then very thin state, but when it was quite full, except the noble lord and his right hon. neighbour (Mr. Vansittart) who understood the bill at all; for his part, he had paid to it all the attention in his power, and could not make it out.
Mr. Johnstonecoincided with the noble lord, with regard to the impolicy of increasing the scale of taxation in proportion to the increase of income. But he could not see any reason for taxing those who had funded property, so much more severely than annuitants.
Mr. Vansittartobserved, that the objections which had been urged by several hon. members, proceeded entirely from a misapprehension of the principle of the bill. They had all along argued as if it went to impose a tax on income, and not on property. The present tax bore a resemblance to the land-tax, which was paid in the same proportion by the man who had ten acres, as by him who had ten thousand. In the same manner, this tax was proposed to be laid on the property of the subject, and did not at all enquire into the amount of that property. The efficacy of the tax would depend on adhering to this principle; and as the income arising from an annuity or from labour was very different from that derived from real property, certain remissions of the tax were proposed to be granted in the former cases. The situation of the man who had an annuity, was very different from that of him who had an income arising from real property. The an-

221
nuity expired with the life of the annuitant, while the stockholder was always possessed of a real capital. The difference between the two was evidently immense, and the present tax constantly kept in view this essential distinction.
Sir W. Gearythought the bill bore too hard on the lower classes of the people. It was said, that every man was, by the bill, taxed according to his means. This was not, however, the case; every man, it was true, having more than 50 l. a year, was liable to be taxed ; but a man who possessed 50 l. a year with a certain number of children, could not be said to have the same means to pay the tax as the man who had the same property, and no children. He thought, therefore, there ought to be exemptions in that respect, as in the original act.
Mr. Babingtonwas of opinion, that enforcing the tax would, on many occasions, produce very great hardship; and thought, from his own experience, that it could not fail to prove a most disagreeable task to the commissioners employed under it. He, therefore, wished to remind the noble lord, that taxes very often took their complexion, in the public opinion, from the occurrence of cases of particular hardship ; and thought that sonic modifications would render it more palateable, and equally productive.
Mr. Foxwished to state in a few words his ideas respecting the principle of the tax. The general principle of it seemed to be, that all persons having property, of whatever kind, were bound to contribute. The exception from this principle was, that those were to be exempted from its operation, who could not contribute to the tax without depriving themselves of the necessaries of life, and thus becoming the proper objects of charity. In many cases, it would be impossible to take any thing from the produce of labour, since it might be barely sufficient to procure subsistence. Hence the propriety of those exemptions that were proposed in certain cases. Annuitants also below a certain sum were to be exempted, because they could not be said to be possessed of real property. But this would not apply to income derived from monies in the funds, or from landed property. Suppose a man to be possessed of 6 or 700 l., from which he derived an income of 30 pounds a year, by subjecting him to the present tax, you could not be said to deprive him of the necessaries
222
of life, or make him an object of charily; for what title could such a man set up to your charitable assistance, who was possessed of a capital of 6 or 700 l? He therefore was not entitled to be exempted from the general principle; and this would apply equally to the possession of landed and of funded property. According to the extent of a man's income in many different situations, he might have it in his power to make such alteration in his expenditure as that the tax would not entirely crush him: he might be able in some measure to relieve himself: if he lived on the first floor, for instance, he might remove to the second, and so lessen his expences; if he was on the second already, he might mount to the attic story; but, where a man was already found to be in the cellar, where could he be sent to, what resource could he have? With regard to the embarrassments of the commissioners, in carrying the act into execution, they would not take place, at least, in the case of the funded property.
Mr. Spencer Stanhopeobserved, that it was very common for people in the lower ranks of life to settle on their widows the interest of the small sums they had been able to accumulate, and the tax, operating on such an income, might reduce those who received it to the sitnation of paupers.
Mr. Foxreplied, that people of that description evidently belonged to the class of annuitants.
Mr. Spencer Stanhopesaid, the tax would operate with a severity amounting to cruelty, in those cases, where small farmers left 100 l. to their widows for their lives, with remainder to their children ; it would also fall extremely hard: upon those labouring persons, who had, whilst young, provided for old age, by saving a little property, which they vested in government security. In this case it would prove a tax upon the old and infirm, whilst the young and vigorous were exempted.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, he did not see why the difficulty should be greater now, than under lord Sidmouth's administration, to allow, in certain cases, funded property, under 50l. a year exemption. Artificers and artisans, he thought, were much better able to hear the tax, than many widows and persons in a state of decrepitude and decay, who had seen better days, and who, by the diminution of their little means, would be particularly appressed.
Mr. Francisremarked, that the noble lord, who brought forward the tax, seemed to he so inveterately addicted to his principle of arithmetical proportion, that he seemed disposed to sacrifice every consideration of benevolence to the plan of squaring the tax, in all cases, to the sum of income, without at all adverting to the infinitely various cases of hardship and difficulty to which poor persons, with small incomes and large families, were exposed. But he would find, upon experience, this rule of proportion would prove a rule of false position. With men whose incomes were far above want, for instance, two or three thousand a year, little or no inconvenience would be felt ; but where the means of a family's existence came to be abridged, the hardship would press intolerably.
Mr. Hudlestonrecommended that the bill should be rendered more palateable, in order that, it might succeed. His first impression, when it was introduced, and the impression which he was convinced remained upon the public mind, was that no income of any description whatever under 50 l. a year was to be subject to its operation. He earnestly recommended that the present clause should be abandoned, as likely to produce great distress, and considerable discontent, more especially when compared with the measure of a similar description which proceeded from a late right hon. gent., who had cautiously avoided pressing upon those classes of society which would be peculiarly affected by the present bill as it now stood.
Mr. W. Smithexpressed his concern to hear his right hon. friend (Mr. Fox) say, that the operation of the tax was only to be arrested when it would occasion a want of the necessaries of life. He felt more for those who, with the most scanty means, were obliged to do what was called "keeping up appearances in life." He alluded to that decent and respectable order of persons, numerous every where throughout this metropolis and the kingdom at large, who had seen better days, and been early used to the comforts of life, but who, with small incomes, were condemned, under the vicissitudes of the times, to struggle with difficulties, in endeavouring to preserve appearances and maintain their claims to decent respect. That order of persons would be more hurt by the necessity of applying for parochial relief, or charitable aid, than those of a lower
224
sphere, by, if possible, more severe necessities ; and when their dependence rested solely upon a little funded property, those sufferings were likely to be extensively felt. Manufacturers and traders could increase their profits to answer any additional outgoing; but persons of limited incomes had no means of retrieving, the deficit that would be occasioned by the tax.
Mr. Secretary Foxbegged leave to recall the attention of the committee to the line of distraction he had before drawn, and to repeat that it was by no means the wish of those who brought forward this tax, that it should so far trespass upon the necessaries of life, as to oblige any of the parties from whom it should be exacted to apply for parochial, or even for private relief; and therefore upon this principle, as in the cases of income from labour, the mere annuitant for life in any income from the funds under 50 l. was exempted by the bill. But any person who was the fee-simple proprietor of 5 or 600 l. in the stocks, which might entitle the holder to an income of 20 or 30 l. a year, he could not consider in the light of an object, likely to want the necessaries of life, or to be driven to seek for charitable relief, and therefore an annuity so circumstanced came fairly under the operation of a property tax, like freehold property in land. For the class of persons to whom his hon. friend alluded, and who were struggling with narrow circumstances to preserve appearances, and maintain the respect to which their characters in life justly entitled them, he felt as sincerely as any man; and not merely for those with incomes of 100 l. or 200 l., but even in many cases with 500 l. a year. No loan was more sincerely disposed than he was to afford them alleviation. He begged his hon. friend to be assured, that he was not himself a friend to the tax or any of its principles or operation; that he was sensible the objections to it were just and innumerable; but his majesty's present ministers were reluctantly forced to adopt it, under the pressure of existing circumstances, which they had the consolation to reflect they had no share in producing. But when the alarming pressure of those exigencies were felt on all sides; when their ears were daily and hourly saluted with admonitions of "take care of the dangerous situation of the country, you must have powerful fleets and formidable armies,

225
and you must spare no expence in arming for your defence at all points;" and yet when ministers came to propose the means of raising funds for such preparations, it was not very pleasant to their feelings, when they heard nothing but objections and embarrassments.—The house then divided upon the question, that the clause should stand as it did. Ayes, 58. Noes, 18. Majority 40. —A subsequent discussion took place upon an amendment proposed by Mr. Wilberforce, for exempting from the tax on professional incomes, so much of their amount as shall be paid in life assurances for the provision of wives or children after the death of the party. It was supported by Mr. Babington and Mr. W. Smith, but opposed by Mr. Vansittart, and negatived without a division. Several additional clauses were proposed by Mr. Vansittart, and particularly a clause for subjecting to the tax all exchequer bills, and other unfunded stock, the interest of which is paid out of the revenue, to commence from the 10th of Oct., which, after a suggestion from Alderman Curtis, that the tax should commence on the 5th of July, was settled as for the former day. —The bill being gone through, Was ordered to be reported the next day, but the clauses were reserved for further consideration on Monday.