Commons Sitting of 9 May 1806

MINUTES
A message from the lords announced their lordships intention of proceeding further with the trial of lord Melville at ten o'clock to-morrow in Westminster Hall.—Sir C. Price presented a petition from the army accoutrement makers of London, against the bill pending in parliament for the regulation of the sale of hides and skins.—Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the committee on the Tortola Free Port bill—The estimates presented yesterday by the Secretary at War having been ordered to be referred to the committee of Supply, the house resolved itself into the said committee, in which, on the motion of the secretary
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at War, the Army Estimates were voted for a month, from the 24th instant, in the same proportion as those for the last three months. The house having been resumed, the report was ordered to be received tomorrow.

REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.
Mr. Hobhousebrought up the Report of the committee on this bill; which being read.
Mr. Tyrwhit Jonessaid, that during the progress of this bill, he had not hitherto troubled the house with a single observation nor should he say more than a few words at present. He had voted against this bill on its first introduction, because he thought it was a bad measure; but bad as it was, he liked it better than the outline which was given of that now in contemplation; and he wished to give notice, that should the new bill be no better than what was to be expected from the opening, he should think it his duty to oppose it from day to day.
Mr. Ellisonobserved, that the fines which had been levied were the property of the public, and ought not to be returned. Besides, they would never return to the pockets of the individuals from whom they were taken.
Mr. Bankesthought the bill, with this clause attached to it, even more dangerous than he had formerly considered it. He hoped there would be no objection to print it. There Would he a difficulty in the repaying, of which the rt. hon. gent. did not seem to be aware.
Mr. Windhamdid not think there was any occasion to print it, as the house was perfectly in possession of the objectionable clause. However if it was thought a material object, he would not object.—The bill was then ordered to be printed as amended, and to be read a third time on Tuesday.

IRON DUTY BILL.
The order of the day having been read for the house to resolve itself into a committee on the Iron Duty bill, lord H Petty moved that the Speaker do now leave the chair.
Mr. Curwenrose with great reluctance to oppose this measure, but he trusted the house would do him the justice to believe, that no light grounds would induce him to throw any impediment in the way of government, at a moment like the present. Without entering into any details, he thought that the very first and most general view of the subject, ought to he sufficient to warrant him in calling on ministers to abandon this tax, and adopt some one less

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injurious to the interests of the Empire It had hitherto been our uniform policy, not to tax articles that were the staple commodities of the country, such as iron, coals or wood. Of all these staple commodities he considered iron to be the most important; any tax on that article would be injurious to the general interest, but the operation of the tax proposed by the noble lord peculiarly so. The noble lord proposed to lay an equal duty on iron of all qualities. Now, there was a variation of at least 50 per cent. in the value of different kinds of iron, how, therefore, could this proposition be reconciled with the principles of justice? The uses of iron were so multiplied, that it was probable they did not enter into the noble lord's contemplation. He would first consider iron of the lowest quality. In the article of iron railways from mines, the operation of the tax would increase the expence of such rail ways 700l. a mile, an expence which would almost amount to a prohibition of them. It had been found desirable to abolish wooden railways for the purpose of substituting iron ones, an object which this tax must in a great measure defeat. Yet it would even then be felt most severely in the construction of these wooden railways. The ramifications of injury that the tax would cause were innumerable. Was the noble lord aware how it would affect the coal trade? On a moderate celculation, it would raise the price of coals one shilling per ton. The quantity imported into London within the year exceeded a million of chaldrons. Thus from this small advance 50,000l. burden would arise. The utmost at which the friends of the tax computed its annual amount was 300,000l. The opponents of it thought not so much. The additional charge, therefore, merely on coals brought to London, came to a sixth of the whole produce of the tax! Another baneful effect of the tax would be, that by its operation on the machinery of our manufactories, horses would be substituted in many cases, and this at a time when we were paying millions annually to the continent fur foreign grain. Was the noble lord aware of the increase in the price of wood that this tax must necessarily occasion? At the present moment iron was applied to purposes for which large timber would then be used. Would it be wise to increase the demand for timber of this description at a period when it was already so alarmingly scarce? With regard to iron of the higher and finer kind; in many manufactures it had to pass through three or four different hands.
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In each of these stages an augmentation of price would take place. But this was a part of the subject winch he would leave to those who were more conversant with it than himself. He would confine himself to the notice of those large works, many of which, if this bill were to pass, would be compelled to be closed. There was at that moment a canal constructing, the trough of which was forming of iron. Was it possible that this could be carried on under the oppressive effect that the tax must produce? Amidst all the increases that had taken place on the various articles of British traffic and manufacture, no increase had been made on the price of iron. This was attributable to the skill and activity of our manufacturers; but if this bill passed, the greater part of them would be ruined, and the business being then monopolized by a few, the most injurious consequences must ensue. He was justified in asserting, that only men of very extraordinary capital, and who had the power of enlarging that capital at pleasure, could then commence iron works; for, supposing the distance from a work to the mine to be but 30 miles, an increase of capital to the amount of 21,000l. would then become necessary merely for the additional expence of the iron railway. He had last session opposed the tax on agricultural horses, as directly affecting the interests of the husbandman; but when he compared that tax with the one in contemplation, he could not but prefer the direct tax to one which would operate more heavily, though in a circuitous manner. It was supposed, that the proposed measure would be equivalent to a duty of 12s. on each husbandry horse; and when the quantity of iron used about a farm was considered, this was, perhaps, not an exaggerated supposition. He would take it, however, at 5s. a horse. The number of husbandry horses in use was a million, and thus would the farming interest incur a burden at least, and on the most moderate calculation, of 250,000l. There were 200,000 pleasure horses, the additional expence on each .of which would be 10s. making 100,000l. which added to the other rendered the burden thrown on the article of horses only, by the operation of this tax, equal to the gross sum which the noble lord had estimated that it would produce! This appeared to him to be a conclusive argument on the subject. It would be criminal in the house to impose a burden so heavy, and from which such little benefit to the country could be derived. He knew with what re

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luctance some minds acknowledged their error, but he trusted that the minds of the noble lord, and of the rt. hon. gent. near him, were too great to persist in a measure, the tendency of which was so highly injurious.
Mr. Stuart Wortleywished to call the attention of the house to the tax, as it affected the manufactures, the agriculture of the country, and the comforts of the poor. He contended, that it would raise the price of many of those manufactures, in which iron was principally employed, 12½ per cent. and in some cases much higher This was a most serious consideration to the country, when the manufactures of Flanders, of Prussia, and of Stiria, were able to come in competition with us in the foreign markets, and even to undersell us in the coarser articles. It was proposed, however, to give a certain drawback on articles exported; but he thought that nothing short of a drawback equal to the increased price which they, would bear in this country, would be sufficient, and this would greatly diminish the produce of the tax. The seats of the great manufacture of Iron ware, With one of which he was particularly, connected, had been seriously affected by the wars on the continent, and this tax would have on them the most injurious effects. Its influence on agriculture would also be pernicious. It would tend to give the grazing farmer, who made less use of horses and implements of iron manufacture, great advantages over the arable and thus would throw an undue proportion of the country into pasture. It would press heavily also on the poor; iron was a necessary part of most of the tools which they employed, and thus the very implements which they used might be placed almost beyond their reach. The great and comprehensive mind of the right hon. gent., who preceded the noble lord in his situation, had perceived the injury which such a tax was calculated to produce, and had relinquished his intention of imposing it. He trusted that his example would be followed in the present instance. He concluded with opposing the Speaker's leaving the chair, and declaring, that he would take the sense of the house on the question.
Mr. Mordauntsaid, that however sorry he might be to oppose measures of finance at this arduous period, he could not but object to a measure, the effect of which must inevitably be to throw a gloom on the spirit of our manufactures, to cut up those very resources to which the country would have to look for its protection and defence, and to drive from bread very numerous classes of
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our industrious poor. It would have the most injurious effects on a very large proportion of the inhabitants of Birmingham which he had the honour to represent. Birmingham had been formerly called the toyshop of Europe; but since the convulsions that had taken place on the continent, the demand for those articles of curious and elegant manufacture had entirely ceased; and goldsmiths and. silversmiths were now converted into blacksmiths. Even in their articles, Germany and America had now began to enter into competition with us. The manufacturers of these countries had received every encouragement, from their different governments, and surely our own manufacturers were equally entitled to the fostering care of our own legislature. The difficulties attending the proper allowance of drawbacks he considered as very great. The orders for the foreign market were all made up in large casks; and as it would be necessary to submit them to time inspection of the exciseman, he considered that the whole would be vexatious in the extreme. He was particularly anxious that the rising manufacture of unwrought iron should remain untouched. It would prove a source of incalculable riches to the country; but should it be strangled in its infancy by the hands of the exciseman, the country would have reason to curse the hour when such a tax had been imposed. It was by our trade and manufactures, that we were enabled to hold such a distinguished rank among the nations of the world; and while these were not discouraged by our own government, we had no reason to fear that the efforts of Buonapart? would ever be able to drive them from the markets of Europe. They would continue to find their way into every part of the habitable globe. He therefore hoped that the noble lord would relinquish a tax that would prove so injurious; and he could assure him, that high as his character stood, it would stand still higher in time public estimation, should he candidly listen to those strong representations that had been made, and retract a measure so impolitic and obnoxious.
Mr. H. Lascellessaid, be hoped the noble lord would proceed with caution in this business He was afraid the operation of this tax would be attended with very serious and mischievous consequences to this country. He had seen statements, which said that foreign markets were. selling the same articles at lower rates than our own, such, particularly, as the grosser iron wares that were made in Sheffield. If this was the

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case already, a tax upon the raw material here would raise the price of the several articles of manufacture so much, that the German markets would he able to undersell us. He wished some other mode might be resorted to, of raising money, rather than this, as the sum received would by no means counterbalance the inconveniencies that would arise from it, and the risk we were likely to run of the loss of our manufactures, from the extravagance of the price that must necessarily be laid on them, if this tax were to pass.
Mr. Wilberforceexpressed his entire concurrence with what had fallen from his hon. colleague, and complimented the hon. member who preceded him (Mr. Mordaunt), on account of the elegant and impressive manner in which he had delivered his sentiments on the subject. He acknowledged, that the situation of the minister of finance had of late, every year, grown more and more difficult; since almost every object of taxation had already been resorted to. It had therefore become difficult to select a tax that was not liable to some objections; but on a fair estimate of all the arguments presented to his-mind, and perhaps also from certain prejudices which he might entertain, the present tax appeared peculiarly objectionable. It had been well observed, that the possession of iron was one of the great grounds of distinction between civilized and barbarous society; and in the same proportion that this country had improved in manufactures and civilization, the manufacture of iron had been extended and improved, and found its way, by numerous meandering streams, into every department of civil life. The number of those employed in producing the raw material, and of those who afterwards wrought it up into every article of utility or elegance, was very great; these were mostly men of athletic make, and great bodily vigour, which was a consideration of no small consequence, in viewing the general utility of a manufacture, since it had been too justly said that too many of our manufactures tended to deteriorate the physical constitution, and produce a feeble and degenerate race of men, without spirit or ability to defend their rights. In this view alone he thought the manufacture of iron in all its branches highly deserving of encouragement, and deprecated any obstruction being given to its progress. He computed the number of those engaged in the various branches of the manufacture at between 4 and 500,000; and when it was considered how much every one of them contributed to the revenues of the state, by
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the produce of his industry, it became a matter of serious consideration, whether the sum proposed to be raised by this tax would not be more than countervailed by those defalcations in other parts of the public revenue, which would arise from the discouragement given to the iron manufacture by the present tax. This tax had been proposed to the house ten years ago, and had then, upon full consideration, been withdrawn. It was then proposed to lay on a duty of only 20s per ton; but the late chancellor of the exchequer saw reasons at that time to decline the prosecution of the measure; and he must now repeat what he had said before in that house (see vol. 6. p. 1002), that it was one of the characteristics of that great man, candidly to give up any measure, which on investigation he found inexpedient, without dreading the charge of inconsistency or indecision. The manufacture of iron had this peculiar recommendation belonging to it, that it had arisen and flourished most in those parts of the country, which nature seemed to have damned to perpetual sterility. He had never felt a more sensible pleasure in his life, than when, after the lapse of a few years, he had returned to a spot once rugged and barren, but then covered by the fruits of human industry, and gladdened by the face of man, in consequence of the introduction of this manufacture. It was a received principle of taxation, that no duty should press upon any article in its rude and early state, since it caused an uniform rise of price on every article into which it was afterwards wrought up. In this instance, he calculated, that though the sum that would enter the treasury could not be more than 200,000l. yet a tax of nearly a million would be raised from the community at large. This he considered as a prodigal waste of those resources which ought to he husbanded for future demands, and which he was sure the public spirit of the country would cheerfully contribute, whenever they Were called for by the necessity of the times. It was a sound principle of taxation, that every tax should be as little vexatious as possible in its collection, for the tax on the feelings of the subject might be more galling than that on his pocket. The application of the excise to any branch of commercial enterprize was to be regretted: but, in this instance, it Would prove more than usually vexatious, from the number of those engaged in the manufacture, from the multifarious variety of the articles, but, above all, from the artisans being hitherto completely unaccustomed to the operation of excise laws.—

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Within the short space of nine years, the manufacture of iron had been more than doubled. The annual produce had then been 100,000 tons, but it had now risen to 250,000. It was therefore our duty to foster its progress, and not to check it. This tax would give foreign countries an advantage over us, and prevent us from increasing its exportation. The tax would cause an increase of price to the amount of 10, 15, and even 20 per cent. He objected to the proposed drawback, as greatly too small. Government had estimated that this would amount to 150,000l. but the manufacturers calculated that 266,000l. would be requisite. On the whole, he must say, that the county which he had the honour to represent looked forward with alarm to the decision of that house. Facts had come to his knowledge within a few days which proved, that, even at present, some of the German manufacturers were able to furnish their articles cheaper than they could be produced in this country, and the tax would tend still more rapidly to drive us from the foreign market. The hon. member then took a view of the quantity of iron used in canals, bridges, ship-building, and agriculture, in all which the tax would severely operate. If the requisite sum could be raised in another way, why impose it on a manufacture of universal application? The hon. gent. then concluded a very able speech, by declaring that he should think himself bound to oppose the tax in every stage.
Sir R. Buxtonexpressed his surprise that the landed interest should so readily have consented to the tax on husbandry horses that had been rejected last year, which would certainly bear exclusively on a particular class of society. He was aware of the pressure of the tax then under consideration upon agriculture, but when he considered the circumstances of the country, such a tax extending to the whole of the country ought to be preferred.
Mr. Wilberforcein explanation observed, that he did not think the farmers would gain any thing by the present tax, in preference to the other, except the satisfaction of thinking that others were subject to it as well as themselves. He suggested that a tax on footmen might perhaps be productive, and as little injurious to the country as any other.
Sir W Youngcontended that it was a principle of taxation to lay the tax on articles that were most diffusive, and consequently would be most productive. He did
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not think a tax upon servants as suggested by the hon. member, would be either eligible or productive. It seemed to be argued, that because the persons employed in the iron trade contributed to the encrease of other subjects of taxation that, therefore, their individual trade should be exempted. If so, servants had an equal right of exemption, as had every person in the community. It was thought that necessaries ought not to be taxed, and that every thing should fall on luxuries. He remembered to have heard it remarked, that where there were ten sons, the best way of providing for the nine was to allow the estate to remain with the eldest, and the youngest brothers to depend on him. In the same way did he regard the idea of taxing luxuries. All the papers before the house showed that the opposition to the bill came from the manufacturers, not the consumers. As to foreign consumption, it consisted with his own knowledge that the tax could have little effect it was not the quantity, but the quality of our manufactures which was looked to. If we talked of exempting necessaries from taxation, we must give up every resource and tax nothing. The use of iron for the purpose of agriculture had been mentioned as an objection to the tax; but the consumption of that article, in this respect, was trifling, when compared with its consumption in our West India plantations, where it was used instead of copper for boilers and other culinary purposes. He contended that the present tax would not affect our articles of hardware in the foreign market, as the demand for those articles did not depend on their price, but arose from their superior quality. In this respect no foreign manufacture was likely soon to rival us.
Lord A. Hamiltonsaid, after the objections to the bill had been so ably stated by the hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Wilberforce), it was not necessary for him to say much. He objected to the bill not as injurious for the present moment merely, but as it went to affect the future revenues of the country. There was hardly a single article either of manufacture or agriculture which would not be affected by it. It was said to be an argument in favour of the bill, that it would operate generally. He agreed that it would operate as a general burden, but he denied that it would be generally productive. His, lordship denied that the manufacture was ripe for taxation. If in so objectionable a measure any thing could be more objectionable than another, it was the subject of

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drawbacks. If the bill should, unfortunately, find its way into a committee, he should then state his ideas on this point. If his noble friend persisted in it, though he should be sorry to oppose a tax proposed by one in whom he had so great a confidence, yet he must, in the present instance, oppose it in every stage.
Mr. Calcraftcould not agree with his noble friend, that the iron trade was not yet ripe enough to produce a revenue. He thought if the iron trade had doubled, as it was admitted had been the case within the last ten years, it was impossible to deny that it was a fit object of taxation. Considering the state of the country, and the necessity there was for making every article contribute to the present exigencies; considering that every necessary of life was taxed; considering the high duty on malt, and even on salt; and considering the great and extraordinary length to which the income tax had been carried this year, it was rather matter of surprise that the present tax had not sooner been thought of. If it could be made out that, by proper drawbacks being allowed, no loss would arise to our foreign market, and, at the same time, that a great increase would thereby arise to the revenue, of probably 3 or 400,000l. it would require some reasoning stronger than he had yet heard to prove that the tax ought not to be adopted. The hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Wilberforce) had, as he always did, made a very eloquent speech, but all he had said would have been perfectly applicable to the first introduction of the excise laws into this country. The gentlemen now sought to be put under the regulations of excise would not have the same necessity for frequent visits from the officers as others had. To shew that the obsertation of the hon. bart. (sir W. Young), that the excellence of the manufacture was what recommended it to foreign markets, he instanced the great fluctuation which had taken place in the prices, being to the extent of upwards of 20 per cent. which nevertheless had had no effect on the amount of the exports; and, by taking a comparative view of the drawback, acknowledged by the dealers themselves to be sufficient, and those proposed to be granted by the present bill, shewed that the drawbacks which it was in the contemplation of the framers of the bill to allow, were full sufficient.
Mr. Francisfelt much reluctance to object to any measure originating with gentlemen, to whom partiality and habit attached him.
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He rose merely to ask a question, the answer to which would remove the difficulty he felt on the present subject. He wished to be informed, to what extent the tax would operate on consumption of iron in the public service? He thought that great part of the tax must revert on government, which was itself so great a consumer of the article in question, loaded as it necessarily must be with the additional expense of collection.
Mr. Vansittartobserved, minutely, on all the arguments which had been made use of in the course of the debate. It had been stated, he said, that the house had always abstained from imposing taxes on the raw material, and particularly iron. It was but lately that iron came to be manufactured to any great extent in this country, but the taxes on foreign iron were multiplied session after session; and, in fact, there were many other taxes which acted as a direct tax on iron, and which never were opposed; he meant the taxes on wood and coals. He could not allow that it would destroy the great iron works, the roads and bridges; the same argument would apply to that, which applied to the foreign trade, namely, that the fluctuation in the price never put a stop to these great works; though it diflered so much as to be in the year 1799, 16l. a ton; in 1803, 19l.; and immediately after that to fall to 14l.; and yet this fluctuation had no effect on the trade. The statements that had been referred to, were much exaggerated, and the drawbacks in the bill were sufficient to cover the trade from the effect of the tax. In some instances the drawback proposed to be allowed exceeded that demanded by the manufacturers; in others they were less; but every liberality would be extended to the wishes of gentlemen on the subject, and the drawbacks might be modified or extended so as to be satisfactory to those concerned. As to the excise, he appealed to his hon. and learned friend, (Mr. Perceval), whether any harsh provisions on that head existed in the bill. Indeed, such provisions were unnecessary, because a bar of pig iron was an article that could not easily be smuggled. The tax would bear so small a proportion to the immense capital employed in such concerns, that they could not he materially affected thereby. He could see nothing in the state of the countries on the continent, to give rise to the apprehensions entertained with respect to the foreign trade. As to America, it was a country in the infancy of

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its population, and no wise government would encourage in such a country the employment of its subjects in manufactures to any extent, that would enable them to rival this country. The population of that country would be wisely directed to the more productive employment of cultivating their country. With respect to the question put by an hon. gent. (Mr. Francis), he had only to say, that the quantity of iron stated to be consumed by government was considerably over-rated; 90,000 tons in the course of the year, had been mentioned; but on reference to the papers on the table, it would be found that the average was not more than from 15 to 20,000. His hon. friend (Mr. Wilberforce) had stated, that a tax on servant would be more adviseable; but he was convinced, that if attempted, it would be the cause of the greatest complaints throughout the country. For these reasons, he hoped the hon. gent. would withdraw their opposition, and suffer the bill to go into a committee.
Sir Ralph Milbankeprofessed that it was with reluctance he opposed any measure of his majesty's present ministers, as he felt the greatest confidence in their integrity and talents. He was averse, however, to this bill in the first instance, though he would not oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair, as such modifications might be adopted in the committe as would render the measure less objectionable. The county he represented, though iron was no part of its manufacture, yet consumed a great deal of that article. The county he represented, though it did not manufacture any iron, yet consumed great deal, and would be materially affected by the tax.
Sir J. Wrottesleywent over the whole of the arguments which had been used in the course evening. He was glad the debate had been postponed so long, as his hon. friends had by that means an opportunity of making up their minds, and offering such arguments as could not fail to convince the house. The fluctuation in the price of iron, he acknowledged was great, but that could not have had any effect at the foreign market, as when Iron was dear we exported very little, on account of our hostility with the Northern Powers. At this time the demand was so great at home, that, to use a tradesman's expression, the pigs were not allowed to be cold before they were taken away. This demand of course raised the price of the commodity; but, some time after, it lowered considerably, on the suggestion of
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the manufacturers, who declared, that they would be unable to proceed with their business, unless they had the raw material considerably cheaper. Much of the flourishing state in which that trade now was, should be attributed to the ingenuity of the persons concerned in it, and nothing could so effectually put a stop to the exertion of this ingenuity, as putting the manufacture under the excise. Formerly, and till within the Last 5 or 6 years, wood or charcoal was the only material by which it was supposed that iron could be made; but the ingenuity of the manufacturers led them to find a substitute in coak. Under the gloomy influence of the excise there was every reason to believe that this useful discovery would never have been made. The moment the legislature put on the excise, they imposed a specific mode of working, from which no appeal could be made, and which must at once put a stop to ingenuity. Insuperable difficulties presented themselves to the execution of the plan laid down. The manufacturers were called on to give notice to the excise officer of the time at which they were to proceed to work. This was impossible. With all heir practice and skill in their business they could not judge within four hours of the time it might be in their power to open the furnace, and proceed to cast, and the Excise Officer must be always on the spot, or the manufacturer must be under innumerable penalties. The door would also be opened to great frauds. This the persons who had applied to him on the subject were particularly anxious to guard against. Nothing could be so unjust to the fair manufacturer as to confer on the fraudulent means of evading the duty, and of underselling the fair dealer. As to the rate of drawbacks, he contended that those specified by gentlemen on the other side, as being assented to by the manufacturers of Sheffield and Birmingham were the best qualified to judge on this subject; and they said, that nothing was more difficult than to fix the drawback, or rather that no drawback could indemnify them. In such articles as knives, spades, &c. where part was iron and part wood, or other material, it was hardly possible by an ict of parliament to fix the drawback which ought to be allowed. Taking a view of the different quantities consumed in home and foreign consumption, by Government, &c. the hon. gent. contended that, of the whole gross amount of 610,000l. which it was agreed, the quantity of Pig Iron manufactured would, at the rate of 40s, per ton, pro

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duce in one year, 112,000l. would be for Government, and 208,000l. would be entitled to Drawbacks. Supposing that there were 200 furnaces, and that only one officer were to be required for each, this would produce an expence in collection at least to the amount of 20,000l. so that of the whole sum of 610,000l. only 270,000l. would remain in aid of the national revenue; and would the noble lord, for such a sum, crush an important manufacture? The hon. bart. thought it would be preferable at once to abandon the tax, and propose a substitute, as there would, at all events, be a deficiency to provide for by same new measure, the noble lord having taken credit for 500,000l. as the produce of the tax.
Mr. Alderman Prinsepdid not conceive the proposed tax on the raw material as at all likely to have the effect which some gentlemen apprehended upon the higher wrought articles. The fact was, that upon the rate of, such articles the original tax would scarcely have any effect. This tax, he remarked, was opposed altogether by the representations of interested persons, and therefore not entitled to the attention which many gentlemen seemed disposed to attach to them.— He remembered that when the tax upon silk was raised at the rate of from 5s. to 13s. a great outcry was raised among the manufacturers, yet the fact was, that notwithstanding this increase, the silk manufactory had considerably advanced. He was not at all surprised, however, that the Iron merchants wished to shift the burden from their own shoulders to somebody else. This was no more than what was natural.
Mr. W Smithcould not admit, that the Excise would be so dangerous as some gentlemen supposed. It had been found the simplest and the cheapest way of collecting a tax. On the other hand, he could not admit, that, because the tax upon wood did not prevent us from building ships, it would therefore be safe to lay a tax on iron also. The fact was, that the Americans, notwithstanding the high price of labour, built ships cheaper than us. Although he disapproved of the tax, he wished the bill to go into a committee, in order to see whether it could be so modified as to be accomodated to the feelings of the manufacturers. If this modification were found practical, he would be ready to grant it that support which he would be happy on all occasions to afford to his right hon. friends on the treasury bench.
Lord HenryPetty said, he had forborne to state his sentiments, until he heard the
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opinions of the several gentlemen who seemed inclined to speak. It was not from pertinacity in his own opinion, that he still supported the tax, but it was from a perseverance, amidst a choice of evils, in preferring the evil of this tax to that of any other which could be supposed to be equally productive. To the proposition for substituting a tax on horses employed in agriculture he thought it unnecessary to make any other reply than that which had been already heard in the course of the debate. A tax upon the landed interest beyond their fair proportion would not, he was sure, be listened to by the house, particularly because that part of the community never manifested any disinclination to bear an equal burthen with others. To assert that the tax before the house, pressed oppressively upon this class, he thought a position that could not for a moment he sustained. For he had the satisfaction of stating, that, independently of the other circumstances already mentioned, the farmers had, in the value of old iron, a deduction of little less than half the original price. But to judge of the fallaciousness of the statements circulated upon this subject, it was only necessary to mention, according to one which had no doubt been put into the hands of most members of the house, it was seriously asserted, that the proposed tax, which was only 40s. per ton, would, as to horses employed in agriculture, produce an increase of 9l. 6s. 8d. per ton. The noble lord Went on to shew, that when taxes became necessary, the attention of ministers was naturally directed to those persons who were able to bear them. Finding, then, the iron manufactory to be a flourishing trade, they very naturally thought proper to select it. That this trade was, many years since, in the year 1797, pointed out to his predecessor in office as a fit subject of taxation, must be known to the gentlemen on the other side; and, although the proposition was not then acted upon, he understood that it was not by any means given up, but intended to be brought forward again by the right hon. gent. alluded to. In order to shew the flourishing state of the iron manufacture, the noble lord stated that the quantity of that article manufactured in 1797, was but 130,000 tons, and that the quantitity in the last year, amounted to 250,000. From this improvement he inferred the superior capacity of the manufactures at present to pay the duty Which his predecessor declined to pass in 1797. As to the operation of this tax upon

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the machinery employed in different manufactories, it did not appear to him that any objection ought to be made on that ground, when it was considered, that from the proceedings of a certain committee (the Woollen Manufacture), it was in contemplation to release this machinery from many embarrassments to which it had been heretofore liable. It was not too much, therefore, on the part of the state, to seek some return from the proprietors of such machinery. The objections urged to the proposed interference of excise officers in certain manufactories, might, if of any weight, be obviated in the committee, and therefore they could form no ground for resisting the motion before the house. With respect to the export trade of wrought iron or hardware, the noble lord begged the house to bear in mind, that the drawback proposed to be granted was more than was required by a committee of the iron manufacturers themselves, who had applied to the treasury upon the subject. The noble lord shewed the increase of the export trade of iron from 1799 to the last year, and the comparative rise in the price of the article, to shew the capacity of the article to sustain an increased duty; and he maintained that from the nature of the drawback no diminution of the export could be apprehended from this duty. After several other observations, including particularly an answer to those who seemed to insinuate that this was the first tax upon a raw material in this country, he concluded by referring them to the taxes Upon cotton foreign wool, and malt, the noble lord pressed upon the consideration of the house, that the question now was as to a choice of evils, that money must be procured for the exigencies of the state, and that the mode now proposed was much less objectionable than any other that had been suggested. It had been recommended to him to propose other taxes. A right hon. gent. had pushed the adoption of a tax upon coals in the pit, in lieu of that before the house. But, he preferred the latter, and to those who seemed so anxious to present him with a substitute, he would say; "Timeo Danaos et "dona ferentes." The noble lord disclaimed any,intention of persisting in this tax from a pertinacious adherence to his own opinion, but from a firm conviction, after the most attentive consideration of all that he had heard upon the subject, that it was the most fit and equitable tax that had been devised; and that it was to be imposed upon those who
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were well able, and, he had no doubt, willing to pay it.
Mr. Rose knewhis late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt) having once abandoned the idea of the tax upon iron, had never changed his opinion on the subject. It appeared to him in many ways injurious to our manufactures. He remembered once, that a tax upon inland navigation was proposed, but given up as injurious to our manufactures. He considered that this would affect the iron railways in a similar manner. When the noble lord talked of the small expense of iron in his arable farm in Scotland, he supposed the horses on that farm went, as the men sometimes did in his country, without shoes. He could not believe that our prospect was such as had been stated, of increasing our exports to North America. That country was now in a high state of population, equal, as he understood, to England in that respect, and yet, notwithstanding this great population, the demand for our hardware from that quarter was not increasing. Of all manufactures this appeared to be the one which they would take up first. The Germans at present nearly equalled us, even in the finest hardware. If then the price of our goods Were still further increased by a duty, we should soon see our exports diminish considerably. Upon the whole, he earnestly recommended the noble lord to abandon this tax, and suggested to his consideration, as substitutes, taxes upon horses kept for pleasure, upon those employed in agriculture, upon male servants, and upon gentlemen's carriages: these were sources from which, he thought, the noble lord might draw a more productive revenue than the tax before the house could promise, and at the same time avoid any kind of oppression or injury to commerce.
Mr. Secretary Foxobserved, that having had the satisfaction to hear the opinions of different gentlemen, their arguments had certainly great weight upon his mind, but there was not a single argument which had been advanced in the course of that night's debate which did not equally apply to almost every other tax that could possibly be brought forward. There was hardly one of the taxes that had been laid on for these twelve years past which he could say he thoroughly approved of. They were all laid on articles which most writers agreed in saying that they were not fit objects of taxation. But the fact was, that we were now placed in such circumstances that we were driven to

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adopt modes of taxation which must, in some degree, affect the prosperity of one branch of our trade or commerce or another. With respect to the draw-back, which, it was said, could not be properly appreciated and apportioned in the manufacture, which contained other materials than iron, he did not see why a drawback ad valorem was not as practicable as a duty ad valorem, which had been long enforced. He was not partial to the excise laws himself, but they were exercised to the advantages of the revenue, and our necessities were now urgent. As to the substitutes that had been proposed for this tax, he had no idea that farmers and others would swallow the bait held out to them by the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Rose), and gorge a tax directly levelled at them, instead of one which would reach them circuitously, and affect them slightly. As to the foreign trade being affected by the tax, that was not likely, as already a larger drawback was allowed to the exporter, than those who had petitioned on the subject asked for. As nothing preferable was proposed, he thought it right to try how the tax could be made less objectionable to a committee.
Mr. Canningthought it material to contradict what had been advanced by the rt. hon. secretary, on the subject of the drawback to be allowed, and read a paper from the committee of iron-masters in town, which stated, that they had represented the necessity of 8s. per ton being allowed, but that only 6's. was granted by the bill. He deprecated the principle of the bill; he could not conceive the object of it, unless it was to involve the iron manufactory in the distress that others had experienced, and to exemplify a late. quotation of a rt. hon. secretary (Mr. Windham),
"Solamen miseris socios habuisse doloris."
But he could no longer wonder at the patience of the house, after they had, on a former occasion, not only with temper, but without laughing, heard the assertion of the rt. hon. secretary, that it was more agreeable to the public to have a burthensome tax doubled at once, than to have it increased by moderate degrees. The rt. hon. gent. insisted that when a man had sunk a great capital in a business; when he had established population in a place that was a wilderness before; when he had settled a colony of dependents under him, the introduction of an exciseman to be, in a manner, the master of his establishment, would degrade and lessen the patriarchal aut0hority which he was entitled to have over a family,
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as it might be which otherwise had none but him to look up to for support or countenance.—After a few words from Mr, Vansittart and Mr. Smith, the house divided. For the commitment, 119. Against it, 109. Majority 10. The house then resolved itself into a committee pro forma. After which the house resumed, the chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Monday.