Commons Sitting of 8 May 1806

Minutes.
A message from the lords announced that they would proceed further on the trial of lord Melville to morrow.— The Secretary at War brought up a return of the number of recruits under the Additional Force act, from limited to unlimited service, from 1804 to 1806. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Huskisson, after a few introductory observations respecting the claims of Messrs Chalmers for compensation on account of the losses sustained upon certain cargoes of Swedish herrings imported by them, in the year 1801, said that the board of treasury had, in 1804, considered the subject very minutely; and although they admitted it certainly was a case of hardship, yet they were of opinion that it was not one of those which they were, in justice, bound to compensate. He concluded by moving, that there be laid before the house a copy of the minutes of the proceedings of the board of treasury on the 10th of August 1804, respecting the claims of Messrs Chalmers and Cowie. Ordered.

Irish Budget.
Mr. Alexanderbrought up the report of the committee of Ways and Means, upon the propositions moved yesterday by sir John Newport.—The resolution being read respecting the duty on Sugar,
Mr. Rosesaid, that the rt. hon. baronet had proposed a temporary duty in order to provide for the interest of a permanent loan, which was not only a novel, but, in his opinion, unwise mode of proceeding. But if he understood the meaning of the rt. hon. baronet correctly, he seemed to think that it was not necessary to raise any taxes for the payment of interest as long as there was any surplus revenue. The surplus revenue of Ireland, over and above the joint contribution, was only about 700,000l. applicable to the payment of the whole of her separate charge, and the rt. hon. baronet seemed to think that as long as any of this surplus remained, it was not necessary to impose any new tax. If the rt. hon. baronet did not

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mean that, upon what principle was it that he proposed a temporary duty to pay the interest of a permanent loan? This duty upon Sugar in Ireland was proposed in consequence of a similar duty being laid on in this country, but the duty in Great Britain would cease with the war, and then the duty in Ireland must cease also.The rt. hon. baronet was introducing an entirely new principle, and it was a subject that deserved consideration, because they were now coming rapidly to that period when the debts of the two countries would bear that proportion to each other that they must, according to the act of Union, be united. He by no means contended that the whole of the supplies for Ireland should be raised within the year, but certainly taxes should be imposed to pay the interest of the loan.
Sir J. Newportsaid, that he did last night, in the most distinct manner, protest against any such interpretation being put upon what he had said as that now attempted by the rt. hon. gent. He had never stated that he would not propose any taxes while there remained any surplus revenue; but that as there were measures in contemplation that, he hoped, would very materially improve the revenue, and as he had been but a very short time in office, and had not an opportunity of fully considering the state of the country, he wished to propose taxes that should press as lightly upon the people as possible. With respect to raising the supplies within the year, why did not the rt. hon. gent. opposite to him (Mr. Foster) do it when he was in office? That rt. hon. gent. had had ample opportunity of knowing the state of the country before he came into office, whereas it was impossible for him (sir J. Newport) to obtain the necessary information, not being able to visit the country during the short time he had been in office. It was admitted that this duty ought to be laid on in consequence of the duty imposed in this country, but it was said that it would not be productive; he certainly did look to it for produce; but gentlemen ought not to press that as an argument against him, when they admitted that he was bound to propose this duty, a similar one having been laid on in this country. He might, he was sure, if he had thought proper, have estimated the other taxes higher than he had done; but he wished to be within bounds, But, surely, it would not be contended that if all the taxes together produced the sum wanted, that each particular one must produce the sum at which it was estimated; and he had not the smallest doubt
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that the taxes he had proposed would produce more than the sum he had estimated them at. The taxes in Ireland were all annual, and if any of them were not productive, parliament of course had the power to repeal, alter, or amend them, or to substitute other taxes in their room. It had been said, that the price of Sugar never could reach the point where this duty would attach, but he had in his hand the price current of Sugar, and it would be seen that the average was above that at which the price would attach. He had heard nothing to induce him to alter his opinion respecting this duty, and he should most certainly adhere to it.
Mr. Fostersaid, he had been asked why he had not, when he was in office, attempted to raise as much of the supplies as possible within the year: the answer was, he had done it, he had proposed taxes to the amount of 1,450,000l. a year. He did not blame the Budget of the rt. hon. baronet, because he had not been long enough in office to obtain full knowledge of the state of Ireland; but there was one observation which he wished to make: the loan for Ireland, made this year in England, was two millions; the annual amount of the debt of Ireland, due in England, was two millions; so that the whole of the loan would remain here to pay the interest of the debt. No country could go on long at this rate; and the debt of Ireland, it would be found, unless proper measures were taken, must be ultimately consolidated with that of this country, as the debt of the former was increasing in a much greater proportion than that of the latter. The proportion ought to be as one to seven; whereas, by the two loans of this year, it was four and a half to eighteen. Such a circumstance required the attention of this country, which must ultimately feel the weight of those impolitic measures.
Sir J. Newportbegged leave to state a few facts in answer to what had fallen from the right hon. gent. respecting his having raised so much of the supplies within the year. In the last year the joint charge of the two countries was 42 millions, and in the present year it was 43 millions: last year, when the rt. hon. gent. was chancellor of the exchequer, there were four millions British borrowed; this year there were two millions British, and two millions Irish, borrowed. After this short statement, he would ask, whether he had not done as much towards raising the supplies within the year as the rt. hon. gent? But the rt hon. gent, had not stated that, when

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he came into office, there remained 800,000l. of the loan of the preceding year not drawn for, and that he had called for the power of raising 500,000l. by Treasury Bills; and the rt. hon. baronet said, that he hoped that he should not have occasion to issue bills to above half that amount. Besides, as he had stated last night, the Ways and Means which he had proposed exceeded the supply by 200,000l. With respect to the revenue produced by the taxes laid on by the rt. hon. gent., he wished to state a few facts: he would not, for the purpose of making a comparison, take a year that had been remarkably unproductive, but he would state the revenue of Ireland every year since the Union. In the year 1801, the revenue was 2,345,000l. in 1802, 3,254,000l in 1803, which was a remarkably unproductive year, and which the rt. hon. gent. had selected for the purpose of his comparison, it was only 2,741,000l. which was 500,000l. less than the preceding year; and in 1804, with all the rt. hon. gent's additional taxes, it was 3,220,0001.; and last year, 3,322,000l. The year 1802, was a year of peace and internal tranquillity in Ireland, and in that year the revenue was within 70,000l. as high as it was last year, after the rt. hon. gent. had imposed taxes to the amount of 1,200,000l. a year. Another reason which operated on his mind was, that he had seen the failure of the rt. hon. gent., who, in some instances, by very much increasing the tax, had actually diminished the revenue. This was the case with the duties upon Wine and Tobacco. Under all these circumstances, the house would, he was sure, consider him as justified for not having followed the advice of the rt. hon. gent. He was ready, however, to do the rt. hon. gent. justice; he certainly had projected regulations which would have very much improved the revenue; these regulations it was his intention to follow up, and he had no doubt that when the revenue of Ireland was collected in a fair and proper manner; when the collection was assimilated, as far as possible, to the collection of the revenue of this country, it would be found infinitely more productive. Until these exertions were made, he did not feel himself justified in calling for new taxes, when not above two-thirds of those now imposed were collected.
Mr. Corrysaid, he trusted the house would indulge him with a few observations upon what had fallen from the rt. hon. gent. opposite to him. The tendency of the observations of the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Foster)
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was to make the house believe that when be came into office he had found the revenue at 2,700,000l. and that he had added taxes to the amount of 1,200,000l. a year to it. It was true, that in 1803, the year before the rt. hon. gent. came into office, the revenue of Ireland was only 2,750,000l. but that was a year in which, from obvious causes, the revenue had failed very considerably. The year before that the revenue was three millions and a quarter, and within 70,000l. as much as it was last year, with all the rt.hon. gent's, new taxes. He trusted the house would forgive him for taking up their time, but the rt. hon. gent. was so much in the habit of making these statements, certainly not intentionally, that he felt himself called upon to state the real facts. With respect to the raising the supplies as far as possible within the year, it certainly was desirable if it could be done; but the rt. hon. gent. who had not done it himself, had no right to call upon the present chancellor of the exchequer to do it. When he (Mr. Corry) was chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland, he had prepared a very strong measure for raising a considerable part of the supply within the year, and, if he had remained in office, he should certainly have submitted it to parliament; and his opinion and his plan, upon that point, remained upon record in the office. With respect to this duty upon Sugar, he begged to make one observation, and it appeared to him to be of considerable importance. A rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) had stated, that the chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland was bound to lay on this duty, because it had been imposed in Great Britain. It was very true that when Ireland was admitted into a share of the colonial trade, she was bound, by what was called the Colony Compact, to lay on the some duties upon colonial articles as Great Britain; but he contended that the colony compact was merged in the union, and that Ireland now shared with Great Britain in the sovereignty of the West India Islands; and therefore the chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland had a right to use his own discretion upon the subject.
Mr. Roseadmitted that the colony compact was done away by the union, but the spirit of it still existed, for it could not be contended that Ireland should have a preference over Great Britain in her own colonies.
Lord De Bloquierecomplimented Mr. Foster for the exertions he had made when he was in office, and said he would have.

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done a great deal more if he had not been thwarted.
Mr. Fostersaid, he was happy to find that the rt. hon. baronet meant to adopt the regulations he had proposed;as he was sure they would prove beneficial.
Sir J. Newportprotested against the produce of the present year being taken as the criterion of what it would have been under the regulations of Mr. Foster, for though he meant to adopt the greatest part of them, he also intended to superadd many and important new ones.
Mr. Leereferred to some documents in his hand, which would, he said, shew, that there was a considerable defalcation last year in the produce both of the excise and customs, though the stamps produced more than they did before. He contended, therefore, that instead of an increase of 1,200,000l. which Mr Foster took to himself the merit of having made in the revenue, compared with some former years, it would not exceed 500,000l.
Mr. Fostersaid, there prevailed in Ireland a strong disposition to resist the collection of the revenue; he wished for the concurrence of all the gentlemen best acquainted with the subject, in devising measures proper to induce the people to submit to the necessary means of rendering them productive.
Mr. Alexandersaid, that the chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland had very great difficulties to contend against, and he thought the two rt. hon. gentlemen who lately held that office (Mr. Corry and Mr. Foster) entitled to great credit for their exertions: the former, he knew, had prepared a very strong and extensive plan for increasing the revenue of Ireland. The hon. member concluded with paying several compliments to the rt. hon. baronet who at present filled. the office of chancellor of the exchequer of Ireland.— The resolution was then agreed to. The resolutions respecting the Distilleries being read,
Mr. Fostersaid, he did not mean to oppose this resolution, but he merely meant to state his reason for continuing the bounty upon the 500 gallon stills; it was because he conceived that there was a kind of compact upon the subject between the government and the distiller.
Sir J. Newportsaid, that when 200 gallon stills were allowed to be worked by law, it was right to give a bounty upon 500 gallon stills, to encourage the use of large ones; but when 200 gallon stills were prohibited, and that 500 gallon stills were the smallest
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that could be legally used, he did not think they ought to have a bounty.—The resolutions were then agreed to, and bills ordered to be brought in upon them.

Army Estimates.
The Secretary at Warbrought up an account of the estimates for the service of the army, and for the expenses of guards and garrisons. These he stated to be merely of a formal nature, and similar to those which had been last presented to the house. They were estimates formed for the period of a month only; and the reason why he proposed them for so short a time was, that the present Mutiny Bill would expire on the 24th inst. It therefore became necessary, in order to give the house an opportunity of fully discussing the military plans that had been brought forward, to introduce a Mutiny bill founded on similar estimates to the preceding, to continue in force for another month. Should the new military measures proposed to the house be adopted, proper estimates, founded on these measures, would of course be presented at the close of that period. He now wished that these estimates should merely be laid on the table; and to-morrow he would move for voting them in a committee of supply.
Mr. Yorkesaid, that he could have no objection to give ministers full time for maturing their military plans. At the same time he must say, that this was the only instance, within his recollection, of such short estimates being from time to time presented, during the continuance of war. At the conclusion of a war, before the peace establishment was fully settled, such a practice had been not unusual, but it was certainly extraordinary while the country was engaged in war. The rt. hon. secretary had often charged the administration with which he was connected, with culpable delay in bringing forward their military plans, but it now appeared that, after so long a period had expired, his own measures were not even now in any state of forwardness. The house and the country would compare the conduct of the two administrations, and would decide to which of them the charge of dilatoriness was most applicable. With regard to the distinguishing part of the rt. hon. secretary's plan, the limitation of the soldier's service, he would call upon him to consider, whether this might not be better done by the king's prerogative, than by parliament; and thus an experiment be made, which the legislature might either sanction or reject. He merely, however, threw out this hint for the consideration of the rt. hon. gent.
Mr. Secretary Windhamacknowledged that it was perfectly fair for the rt. hon. gent. to call upon the house to draw such a comparison; but it would also be proper for them to compare what the delay in the one case had produced, with what it had produced in the other. The reason why estimates for so short a period were presented, was merely for the purpose of giving the house an opportunity of fully discussing the plans that had been submitted to them. With regard to the suggestion of the rt. hon. gent. it could not be said to bear much relation to the present question; and it might be sufficient to observe, that whatever might be enacted on the subject of limited service, the legislature would every year have the power of making whatever alterations might appear proper. There would always be sufficient opportunities for discussing the subject, and the discussions might be founded on the basis of experiment.
Mr. Percevalsuspected, that the farther extension of the present army estimates for a month would be found insufficient. It was now a full month since the rt. hon. secretary laid open his plan to the house, while it did not appear that any difference of Opinion existed among ministers on the subject; at least the rt. hon. secretary for the foreign department had declared his full concurrence with the plan of his colleague. It was not, therefore, unreasonable to suppose that, if ministers had required a month to digest a plan, about which they were agreed, that house, where it would meet with so many opponents, would require a still longer period for its discussion.
The Secretary at Warapprehended, that a month would be fully sufficient to enable the house to come to a determination on the new military plans. Besides, when a new Mutiny bill was introduced at the close of that period, there would be full opportunity to discuss the new clauses, founded on the alterations that might be introduced into the military system.
Mr. Yorkeasked, whether it was intended to introduce the three bills for which leave had been given, with the bill for the repeal of the Additional Force act, and which had not since been heard of; the bill for suspending the militia ballot, the bill for Training en masse, and the bill for extending the allowance of Chelsea Hospital.
Mr. Windhamsaid these bills were in preparation; but he could not mention any particular day for the introduction of them.

Arrears of the Public Accounts.
—Lord Henry Pettyrose to give a general notice on a very important subject. Gentlemen must be aware that there had been for some days on the table a most important report of the commissioners of military inquiry. (See appendix, vol. vi. p. cliii.) The facts contained in that report made it necessary that measures should be taken, without one day's delay, to apply a remedy to the abuses which they proved. But as they were under the consideration of his majesty's government, and so far advanced as to render it likely that it would be produced before the close of the present session, one general measure for bringing up the arrears of the public accountants, it was conceived that the subject the report on the table applied to, would be most properly included in that general measure. The suggestions contained in that report would be fully attended to in framing the general measure under consideration. He assured the house, in the mean time, that this delay of the legislative provision, would not prevent the adoption of immediate steps to obtain the repayment of the large balance that appeared to be due to the public from a person who had lately held an office of high public trust (General De Lancey), late barrack master general.

Affairs of India.
Mr. Paullrose to move for the production of several papers, in further support of his charges against the marquis Wellesley. They consisted of an account of the new taxes levied, and the old imposts revived, under the government and during the administration of the marquis, in India, with a long series of others, respecting the revenues, police, and municipal arrangements of the country. On the question being put upon the first,
Mr. Bankesobserved, that the house having now proceeded so far in this business as to have allowed a charge to be laid upon their table, for the crimination of the noble marquis; and to grant to the hon. gent. who brought it forward, a vast mass of papers to support those charges, the business now began to assume a serious turn; and it therefore became necessary for the house to consider what steps were most fit to be farther pursued. The first thing to be considered was, whether the charges sustained upon such documents as were now before the house, were such as ought to be entertained? and if they were, then the next thing to be considered was, in what manner the house should proceed, as best calculated to attain

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the ends of public justice, with all convenient dispatch: for he trusted, that the hon. gent. who had brought this charge forward, was not to be indulged in moving for papers ad infinitum, but would be obliged to come to issue upon the points of accusation as speedily as possible. Any person who had looked into the papers upon the table must have observed, that great part of the charges bore upon the political conduct of marquis Wellesley; that they accused him of various illegal and corrupt abuses of his authority; of extorting money from several of the native princes of the country under his government, which he employed in expensive and ruinous wars, contrary to his duty, and to the interests of the company who employed him; and with profusely squandering or corruptly appropriating to his own use several enormous sums of money: charges, undoubtedly, of a very flagitious nature, and which the house, in the ordinary confidence it was bound to give to one of its own members, could not refuse to entertain. without some very solid and substantial reasons — The country, however, had, within the last 20 years, experience enough to shew, how injudicious it was to meddle with impeachments. Besides, by what kind of tribunal was the party accused to be tried? Before one, certainly, where the guilty man might escape through delay, or the most innocent man be ruined through expense; and, therefore, if there were any other legal or competent jurisdiction, before which this cause could be tried, the house ought not, for the sake of speedy and substantial justice, to proceed by the ordinary mode of impeachment. He was happy to know that such a tribunal did exist, for under two clauses of two acts of parliament, namely, of the 24th of the king, cap. 25, and the 26th of the king, cap. 57, for further regulation of the first, provision was made peculiarly for the case of trying charges of delinquency in India, and a discretion was vested in the court of King's Bench, to originate criminal proceedings against such delinquents, if it should appear just so to do: in consequence the house was empowered to nominate a certain number of its members, who, with a certain number of the lords, and three of the judges (one of whom should constantly preside) would form a court for the trial of all such accusations. Conceiving, then, that the charges now laid on the table against the noble marquis were precisely of the description which came legally within the proper cognizance andjurisdiction of such a court, he strongly recom-
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mended it to the house, and to the hon. gent to proceed in the:manner he suggested, and make his application to the court of King's Bench. He expressed high respect and friendship for the noble marquis, who had his best wishes; and he earnestly hoped, that the charges would ultimately prove unfounded: but the cause of public justice was a motive superior to all private considerations.
Mr. Secretary Foxsaid, that he recollected the clauses to which the hon. gent. alluded, and disapproved of them at the time they were under discussion. He agreed with the sentiment of the hon. gent. that the house ought not to assume judicial function is where it could be avoided; because the judicial functions of that house was a powerful weapon, which ought not to be used every day, and upon every slight subject. But the judicial functions of the house was a privilege of too much value and importance to be abandoned or surrendered upon any occasion without due consideration and great caution; for convinced he was that by the exercise of its functions the house of commons had done more towards placing this country upon the high constitutional ground it now stood than any other part of its deliberative proceedings. He therefore wished that it never should be supposed for a single moment, that the house had abandoned or surrendered that privilege to a minor court, upon which so much of the safety of the country might hereafter depend.
The Marquis of Douglas,instead of considering the subject unfit to be brought before that house, thought it their duty not to recede a single step in the proceeding which had been commenced. He was far from thinking that this was a case which ought to be abandoned to the inferior courts. But in consequence of what had fallen from the rt. hon. sec. of state, in the true spirit of those principles which he had always professed, he should deem it unnecessary to trespass on the time of the house in endeavouring to shew that parliamentary impeachment was the only fit mode of proceeding in accusations of high crimes and misdemeanors.
Sir Arthur Wellesleydeclared, that the more speedily the subject of the charges against his noble relation could be put at issue, and the more expeditious the mode by which the matter could be brought to its final decision, the more satisfactory would it be to that noble lord, and to all his friends; but at the same time, he thought it highly necessary that all the papers moved for by the hon. gent. should be laid ons the table,

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and considered by the house, before they came to any decision whatever as to the mode of further proceeding. He admitted that the charge against his noble relative might originally have proceeded before the court of King's Bench, but having come before the house, he submitted that it must be got quit of by a specific vote, establishing either his guilt or innocence. He therefore thought there could be no objection to the papers being produced.
Mr. Francisdenied the doctrine laid down by Mr. Fox, that the house of commons was a court of justice, or acted in a judicial capacity; to call it so was a misnomer: it was properly the grand inquest, whose province was to inquire respecting the validity of great criminal charges, and then to proceed as the accuser or prosecutor before a high court of justice. But he was of opinion, that such were the charges which the house had now entertained against the noble marquis, and so enormous was their nature, that, if true, they sunk the imputed criminality of another noble lord, now on his trial, comparatively, almost to nothing. If lord Melville's case was one which required impeachment, marquis Wellesley's was one which required it much more strongly, Where one was accused of taking thousands, the other was accused of wasting millions. The house was bound to go into an inquiry, and come to some decision upon the business, instead of abandoning it to the jurisdiction of another tribunal. He did not, for his own part, presume to anticipate any guilt on the part of the noble marquis. He wished to have him heard at the bar, in answer to these charges, as had been the case with sir Elijah Impey and Mr. Hastings; and if he could make a satisfactory defence for his own vindication, he should have his vote to quash all further proceedings.
Mr. Foxsaid, he only meant that the particular charge of extortion might be a fit subject for the jurisdiction of the court appointed by the 24th of his majesty, without reference to the other charges.
Mr. H. Addingtonstated, that the difference between this case and that of another lord alluded to, consisted in this: the case alluded to proceeded on a resolution of this house, finding that the noble lord in question had violated an act of parliament, and that he had applied the public money to his own advantage. Here no peculation was even alleged, nor was any evidence given of the supposed breach of the law.
Dr. Laurencethought it was in the power
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of any individual in the house to propose whatever course he pleased. He could see no object in the observations of the rt. hon. gent. who had just spoken, than to lower the tone of the house. The charges against the marquis Wellesley were of an infinitely stronger nature, than those against the noble lord who was then on his trial. He was in favour of proceeding by impeachment; but as that was not now the question, he would vote for the production of the papers.— The motion was then put and agreed to.
Mr. Paullthen moved for a variety of other papers, for the purpose of shewing the interest paid on the loans by the Marquis Wellesley, the amounts of salaries, house-rents, &c. payable to persons holding offices under him, &c.; which, after some additional remarks from Mr. Bankes, in which he expressed his determination, on a future occasion, to call the attention of the house to the state in which the matter then stood, were agreed to.—On the motion of the Marquis of Douglas, in addition to a former order, there was ordered to be laid before the house an account of all gratuities, pensions, or presents, paid or payable in India to servants of the East India company down to the latest period.

REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL
The house resolved itself into a committee on this bill. As the chairman was reading the proposed alteration in the clause respecting the penalties now levied,
Mr. Yorkewished the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) would state, generally, what was the nature of the alterations he intended to propose in that respect?
Mr. Windhamsaid, it was his intention to propose, that those penalties which were due under the act should not be enforced, and that those which had been paid should be refunded.
Mr. Yorkewished also to know, why the Army of Reserve act had been mentioned in the clause?
Mr. Windhamreplied, that it was because the Additional Force act repealed the Army of Reserve act, and it might, therefore, be doubted whether the repeal of that act would not be a revival of the Army of Reserve.
Mr. Bankessaid, that although he was friendly to the principle of the bill, he would rather abandon it altogether than agree to such a clause. As to the bill itself, he wished it to be repealed, because he was sure it had completely failed; and although a sufficient time had been allowed for it to produce

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its effect, it was found not to be the permanent and perennial source for recruiting our armies that it was expected to be; but as to the clause, he thought nothing could be more unjust than to place upon an equality those who had diligently and successfully exerted themselves to carry the law into execution, and those who from supineness and negligence made no such exertions. As to the repaying the penalties, it was a principle he never before heard of. He well remembered the Shop Tax, which was highly condemned by the rt hon. gent (Mr. Fox), as oppressive and unjust; but it never had entered into the head of that rt. hon. gent. or of the numerous petitioners for the repeal of the tax, that whatever had been raised under it, ought to have been restored. They were contented then with the repeal of the act of which they complained. There were only two petitions on the table of the house, for the repeal of act: the one was from Berkshire, and the other from the parish of Mery-la-bonne, but the petitioners had never thought of asking for repayment of the sums they had paid under this act. If this were done, it would appear that they were foolish people who complied with the act, and the wise people were those who paid no attention to it; for those parishes who raised men had deprived themselves of so much of their population and their wealth to no purpose. It would be an exceedingly bad precedent to make the breach of a law more profitable than the observance of it. In some cases, indeed, he knew it was impossible to comply with this law, for the apportionments were so strange, that some parishes had only three-fourths of a man to find, and he knew two parishes that had but one man to find between them, and the apportionment was, that one was rated at nine twenty-fourths of this man, and the other at fifteen twenty-fourths. In such cases the parishes had no option but to find the money.
Mr. Secretary Windhamadmitted that the clause was certainly not without some inconvenience, but the question was now only, whether any less inconvenient mode could be pointed out. There were three ways in which the house might proceed; either to retain the penalties paid and remit the remainder, or to suffer the bill to continue, or to remit the penalties due, and to refund those paid. The first was liable to weighty objections, though he did not think as highly so as others. As to the feeling that those parishes might entertain, who had raised men, he could not entirely enter into the
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feelings of those who required that, to console them for their sufferings, others should suffer too.
"Solamen miseris socios habuisse doloris."
If the question were about stopping an infectious disorder, a yellow fever, or a plague, and it should be said, that, as one half of the people had already died of it, it was but fair and just to let the other halt die too, he could by no means admit the force of that argument. There was no reason to suppose, that it was from any reluctance, or ill will, that the parishes did not find their quota, and if it was only because it was impossible to get the men, it would be unfair that they should be fined on account of this impossibility. If those parishes, who raised some men, did it by a breach of the law, there was no reason that they should be rewarded for that breach of the law, and if the others did not raise them because they would not break the law, it would be hard that they should be punished for not breaking the law. Dr. Moore had told a story of a review at Berlin, where a soldier, whose hat was blown off, was severely Punished, and although it was an unavoidable accident, yet it was observed that such accidents occurred seldomer after that time. It was perhaps in the same kind of way that some gentlemen supposed that whatever might be the cause of the parishes not producing the men, it would be the best way to punish them. The parishes however had shewn the greatest readiness to do all that was in their power to do, which was the paying the money As to the men, it had generally been found impossible to procure them according to the act; and the counties of Denbigh, Anglesea, and other places which had furnished their quota, had only been enabled to do so by sending to Manchester and other manufacturing towns to get the men in the usual way. It was certainly odd, that the hon. gentlemen, who had so often said that they wanted men, and not money, .now thought it right to inflict so excessive a burthen upon the parishes, as the fines amounted to. But, having once got the cash, 'non datur redditus;' the money was like the mouse, in a trap, and was never to be relinquished. There were not, it was true, many petitions against the Additional Force bill; but if a general understanding had not prevailed that it would be repealed, the table would have been loaded with them. It had been universally felt, that the bill must be repealed; and his Majesty's ministers, convinced of the impossibility of its being complied with, never could have pur-

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sued so unworthy a purpose as that of making people pay fines, amounting to near a million sterling, for not doing those things which they were utterly unable to do.
Sir E. Hartoppsaid he thought it would be an injustice to his constituents, who had raised their full quota of men under the act, if they were to have no indemnification for their trouble, expence, and exertions, whilst other counties that had failed of carrying the act into execution, should be released from all penalties. The parishes that did exert themselves, and procured the men for the defence of the country, ought to be paid for their trouble, as an encouragement to zeal and loyalty for the future.
Sir W. Milnerobserved, that some reflections had been attempted to be cast upon the parish of Mary-la-bonne, for not haying raised any men under the additional force act. The fact was, they were not able to raise a single Man by the provisions of the bill: they would not have recourse to the illegal means of crimping, though others had done so; and even though the same person (one of those called crimps) that had been employed by others, offered his services to them, they still adhered to what was lawful and honourable.
Mr. G. VansittartSupported the clause. He thought that those counties that had exerted themselves to get the men in the.manner pointed out by thelaw, but had failed, were more meritorious than those that had procured them contrary to law.
Mr. Shaw Lefevrerecommended that a clause should be inserted, in the bill, ordering the amount of the fines remitted or refunded to.parishes, to be put to the fund for the relief of the poor in each Parish or district. He denied that there was any unwillingness on the part of the people in any place that he had any knowledge of, to exert themselves in support of the provisions of the bill. The fact was, so many different militia were brought forward in quick succession after each other, that it was totally impossible to procure the men.
Mr. Windhamobserved, that there was a clause in the bill, directing the application of the money to those purposes.
General Tarletonobserved, that several members had stigmatised the men raised by the Parish bill. For his own part he could assert that he had inspected the rolls, and saw several of the men, and he never saw finer men in his life. The inspecting officer would not have passed them if they were defective. He would also say that if the
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fines were not remitted, the country would in two months have 5000 men. The remitting of the fines would now encourage people to break acts of parliament. He observed that it might be expedient in some instances to commit a breach of regulation for the defence of the country, and in that case the breach would be more honourable than the observance.
Dr. Laurencesaid that it was to him one of the most extraordinary assertions he had ever heard in a legislative assembly, that it would be right to break a positive law. With respect to the qualifications of the men for military service, there were letters on the table which shewed there was a secret understanding by which men; to be raised under the act then discussing, were allowed to be taken two inches under the usual standard, and ten years older than they would be admitted into other military bodies.
Mr. Ellisonsaid, he had opposed the Additional Force bill in all its stages, because he thought it a measure of false pretences, and injustice to many parts of the country in which it was impossible to carry it into effect. Yet he thought this clause objectionable, as leaving the whole burthen on those countries that had obeyed the law, and releasing from all penalties those that had neglected so to do.
Mr. Fullersaid that the act which was now to be repealed, was a mere act of experiment, and the experiment had completely failed. In his part of the country it was absolutely impossible to raise the men, and therefore he thought it would be very unjust that the parishes should be subject to the penalties.
Lord Castlereagh,said, as the house seemed now to have adopted the proposition for the repeal of the act, it was in vain for him to renew his objections to that course of proceeding. The question now was as to the wisdom of returning the fines, and he was firmly of opinion, under all the circumstances of their becoming due, that by so doing, the legislature would surrender its authority and its respectability. He doubted whether the committee was proceeding formally in the discussion of such a question, as the money must be considered to have been paid into the exchequer, and to be now at the disposal of the executive government, for the purposes of the Country at large. He apprehended no injury would result, if parliament would appoint some time by which the defaulting parishes should be required to furnish the men, or be subjected to the in-

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fiction of the fine, If they were really to have the money returned, compensation ought certainly to be Made to those which had furnished men at So great an expence, at well under this act as under the Army of Reserve. The Militia laws, and all military measures were liable to the same objections, with respect to penalties, as the Additional Force bill; but the existing Militia laws particularly, as under them a parish might become subject to a fine of 400l. per man, if it neglected, for an extended period, to furnish men? The noble lord concluded, by expressing his hope, that parliament would maintain its dignity, and enforce the fines,if, after a reasonable notice the parishes did not comply with the provisions of the act.— The gallery was then cleared, but the bill passed through the committee, without a division, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.