Commons Sitting of 6 May 1806

MINUTES.
A message was received from the lords acquainting the house that their lordships would proceed farther in the Trial of lord Melville, on Thursday next, at 10 of the clock, in Westminster-hall. Also that their Lordships had agreed to the Sea Offence Bill without any amendment.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart the order for the third reading of the Iron Duty bill on Thursday was read, when he moved that the order be discharged, and the bill ordered for recommitment on Friday next. He was induced to make this motion from a desire on the part of his majesty's ministers, that the subject might meet with the maturest consideration. The order was made accordingly.—Mr. W. Smith brought up the report of the committee of ways and means relative to the duty on the exportation of Iron, which was read a first and second time and agreed to, and instructions ordered to be given to the committee of the whole house on the Iron Duty bill, to make provisions therein accordingly.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee of ways and means on the extension of the duty on Iron to the stock in hand. The resolutions were read and agreed to, and instructions directed to be given to the committee on the Iron duty to make provisions in the said bill accordingly.—The Lord Advocate of Scotland brought in the bill For increasing the Salaries of the Judge of the Court of Admiralty and of the Judges of the Commissary Court, which was read a first time.

REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.
Mr. Secretary Windhammoved the
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order of the day for going into a committee on the bill for repealing the Additional Force act. The order having been read, and the question put, that the Speaker do now leave the chair,
Mr. Johnstone rose,and observed that having upon a former occasion voted for the proposition of the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) respecting this bill, he now rose to trouble the house with a few explanations of the motives which had decided him to give that vote. When the Additional-Force bill was first brought in, he had opposed it because he thought it would never be productive; and though it had proved more so than he had expected, yet so many objections occurred to its principle and practice, that he should not have voted as he had done the other night, if the proposition had been of a nature to prevent the house from repealing the act during the session. From the development of the rt. hon. gent.'s (Mr. Wind-ham's) plan, which had been given to the house, he had the strongest objections to it. The expression of the rt. hon. gent. in describing the present state of the public force, was, that our army appeared as if they had clubbed the battalion, and every thing was in an order of inversion or retrogradation; he therefore strongly dwelt upon the necessity of a system of regulation calculated to cure these disorders. The rt. hon. gent. had emphatically said, that the fate of nations was decided by armies; and after stating that position in a manner so forcible as he had done, he (Mr. J.) owned he was prepared to expect some plan infinitely more efficient than that which had been suggested. When experience had shewn the extreme difficulty of procuring recruits for our

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army under the high bounties that were given, and after all the exertions that were made, he could not see the least prospect of remedying the defect by the proposed reduction of bounties; in lieu of which the rt. hon. gent. proposed an advance of 6d. per week to men who had served 7 years, and 1s. per week to men who had served 14 years; this would never be felt as an adequate compensation. The rt. hon. gent. had conceived, that in order to render the recruiting service more effective, reliance was not to be placed on high bounties, but an appeal to the honourable feelings of the soldier: if this could be effected, it would certainly be desirable; but he doubted the propriety of depending on such a principle. Something he thought certainly ought to be done for the encouragement of the army, in the same manner as was proposed a few nights since by a noble lord (Howick) for the navy, by increasing the number of petty officers in each regiment, and thereby not only rendering the discipline more perfect and orderly, but pointing out more frequent opportunities of preferment for good behaviour. This was a principle prevalent in all the military services of the continent, and had the best effect in exciting men to signalize themselves: he would wish it adopted in relation to subaltern officers as well as common soldiers, particularly where the approbation of a commander in chief was mentioned in general orders, or pointedly expressed to government. This was the practice in our navy. He did not expect to hear from a strong government so timid a pretence, as that of declining to recruit from the militia into the army of the line to the extent which might be done. It had been proposed by the rt. hon. gent. gradually to reduce the militia down to its original force of 40,000 men. Why not do so at once, and thus set 20,000 men at liberty to join the regular army? or why not recruit the regiments of the line from the militia to the utmost possible extent, and then ballot the counties over again? This had been done in 1799, and had no prejudicial effect whatever on the militia service. In the last year 14,000 men were recruited from the militia, and he would appeal to the country whether it had done any injury to the service. Without some such measure, how was the proposed force of 200,000 men to be raised for the service of the united kingdom? It might be thought, he would allow, a measure of harshness; but it was one to which he was sure the country would cheerfully submit
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under the present exigency. He complained that in the growing wealth of the country many arrangements had taken place to defeat the objects of the militia law, and to deprive the service of many valuable men. He instanced the lowering the fines to 10 l. upon persons balloted, and not choosing to serve personally. The parishes, out of their rates, in most instances, paid those fines for the poor man, and the money went to raise a man for the militia who would otherwise have enlisted for the line.
Colonel Grahamrecurred to a statement he had made upon the last night this bill was in discussion, respecting the practice on the continent of enlisting men for limited service, even in time of war, which an hon. gent. on the other side of the house was pleased totally to deny. He was not just at that moment prepared to refute the hon. member, by the production of any authority on which he could positively rely. But he had since felt it his duty to make more minute enquiry from persons most competent to give him information, namely several French officers, now in London, all of whom had corroborated his former assertions, and stated, that both before and since the revolution, the practice had prevailed in the French service, and had been attended with the best effects in recruiting the army. In fact, groups of young fellows entered this service for 8 or 10 years, as it were on a party of pleasure, who would never have thought of in listing for life; and in many of the provinces no young man could obtain a wife who had not previously been 8 or 9 years in the army. The reason why he had voted on the former occasion for the repeal of this bill, was in order to remove it out of the way of the great measure proposed by the rt. hon. gent. and, with all due deference to the great military authorities who supported this bill, and opposed the measure of the rt. hon. gent. because it was new and untried, he begged to observe, that so also was the state of the country new and unparalleled, and one that called for new and extraordinary measures; the system of Europe was such as made it indispensible for the country to depart from old and established usages, and to become, for its own, security, a great military nation. Unless the inducements proposed by the new plan were held out to the lower orders of the people of England, how were a sufficient number of men, cradled in liberty, and reared from infancy in a spirit of independence, to be induced to enter for general service?

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Such was the necessity of an adequate disposable force, that unless our army was so composed, as to be immediately convertible from defensive to offensive operations, it could never act with the necessary effect for national security. Therefore, the system for recruiting the force must be the sole and general one it use; to produce it full effect, it must meet no rivals in every market town. A partial trial of it would be productive of no good consequence; but if upon fair experiment it should fail, recourse to coersive measures might then be had, upon grounds the most fair and excusable. But in voting for the repeal of the bill, he by no means pledged himself to support the whole detail of the plan proposed by the rt. hon. gent. There were, on the contrary, some parts of hon. gen There were, on the contrary, some parts of it which he did not entirely approve: should, for instance, not be disposed to he sign the volunteers, whose services he highly approved, and whose competence for action in the field, so far as he had seen them, he thought in no degree objectionable. He had seen in G. Britain but a few batallions of them, and those in Scotland, whose discipline he thought complete; but in Ireland, where he had seen very numerous bodies of them in the field, he considered them inferior to no troops of any description, and competent to serve in the line with any corps whatever. There were other parts of the detail, too, upon which he differed; for instance, on dividing the period of 21 years service, he should think the first term should be much the longest; but he could by no means agree to the argument which had been adduced, that the soldiers now enlisted for life would murmur, or feel dicontent, because others in the same regiment should hereafter enlist for shorter periods. He knew too well the character of British soldiers, to apprehend any such consequences; they knew the terms of their original enlistment, and it was no part of their character to murmur when faith was fairly kept with them. He feared no relaxation of discipline on account of approaching discharge to men enlisted for limited periods, and could not therefore accede to such an imputation upon the officers of regiments. He could never suppose it possible, that a British soldier would insist upon his discharge so long as his country was in danger, or that he would be content to retire to his parish branded with the suspicion of cowardice. He thought the enlisting for that period well calculated to obtain a better order of recruits, and to remove many of the
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causes Which led to severe and ignominious punishments, so desirable to abolish, if it were at all practicable; and for his own part he should prefer troops actuated by that moral courage, and sense of honour and love of their country, however some gentlemen might be disposed to ridicule those sentiments in the soldiery, than by that cold, mechanical, physical courage, created by severe discipline and harsh treatment, with no other motive of action than the dread of punishment, and the consideration of pay; and he would appeal to every officer who bad led troops into action, which description of men he would prefer to command in any arduous enterprize.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he was fully aware, that no task could be more ungracious to undertake, than that of endeavouring to dissuade parliament from the adoption of a plan which the rt. hon. gent. as one of his majesty's ministers, at a crisis so arduous, had taken so much pains to convince himself, and to convince the house, was the most eligible for their adoption; but the deep and strong sense he felt, of the superior efficacy of the bill now proposed to be repealed, to all the objects proposed by the rt. hon. gent. for an effective increase of the public force, was such, that he could not, without an absolute dereliction of his public duty, omit to impress upon the house the insurmountable objections he had to the rt. hon. gent's. plan, and the motives which induced him to give a decided preference to the bill now proposed to be repealed, in order that his majesty's ministers should not have inadvertency to plead; and that upon their own shoulders might rest the responsibility of throwing out of their hands, wantonly and unnecessarily, a plan of military arrangement, which had been found so productive, for the sake of adopting a new project which had never been tried, and in support of which the rt. hon. gent. had scarcely deigned to give to the house a single reason, in answer to all the objections which had been opposed to it. Not even the brilliant and eloquent speech of a rt. hon. friend of his (Mr. Canning), on a former night, could wring from the rt. hon. gent. a single answer to any of his able and irresistible arguments. In the arguments he was about to offer, he should studiously avoid any application to the military part of the bill, and direct his observations merely to the civil part of it, which was of sufficient magnitude for the present discussion, and which seemed to be the branch most obnoxious to the rt. hon. gent.

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and those who now supported him.—The first point to be considered was, the present deficiency of the army, and the further increase of that deficiency likely to flow from the rt. hon. gent.'s plan, before this bill should be abandoned for the substitution of one new and untried. The present deficit was 25,000 men; and the annual deficiency arising from casualties, could not be estimated at less than 15,000. The rt. hon. gent. proposed to discharge all men who had already served for 21 years, which would amount to nine battalions of veteran soldiers. This would produce annually, a very considerable addition to the deficit by casualties. He proposed, besides, to let the militia waste away to its original establishment, at the rate of about 5000 men per annum, which, added to the other deficits, would form one grand deficit in the ensuing year of no less than 51,000 men. The ordinary recruiting service, to supply this, produced, upon an average of the last 5 years, about 11,000 men per annum, so that, at the latter end of the next year, upon this calculation, the deficit from the proposed force of the country would be no less than 40,000 men; and this alarming defect and difficulty would be produced under the plan of the rt. hon. gent. adopted without any cause or necessity whatever. He would undertake to shew that by this plan, the casualties would be doubled, and the necessities of the recruiting service increased from 15,000 to 30,000 men pet annum —The noble lord next proceeded the state the average produce of the ordinary recruiting service, under four several period during the war: namely, before the operation of the army of reserve; during the operation of the army of reserve; the interval between the operation of that army and the additional force bill; and lastly, the operation of the additional force bill itself. In the first period, the average of recruits raised per month, for 12 months, was 980. The next was a period of 8 months, average 708 men; the third was under the army of reserve, and the average 751; and the fourth when the additional force bill came into operation, the average, monthly, was 908 men. Now, during the last period, neither the army of reserve nor the militia were in operation, and therefore the increased number could not be fairly reckoned as a general average; but it was found, that while the parish officers were obtaining their quota of men, the recruiting parties, acting for the bill, felt no diminution in their success: and there could
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not he a stronger argument against parting with this bill, than that it had given 1800 men within the last two months, and would certainly have produced 5000 more by the latter end of the year, notwithstanding the obvious damp cast upon its operation, by the suspense and discouragement under which those who had acted under it, for the last two months, had laboured. These facts, then, he desired to be contrasted with the plan proposed by the rt. hon. gent. the sole object of which was to cast down a system that had been found so productive, for the adoption of one totally novel and untried, which the rt. hon. gent. had repeatedly, before his accession to office, detailed from the opposite side of the house, and to which no members had expressed their opposition in terms of stronger condemnation and contempt than many of those very men who were now prepared to applaud it in terms of the highest panegyric. A question very necessary to be considered was, whether the rt. hon. gent. intended to substitute, in aid of his ordinary recruiting system, any parochial plan of this kind; for experience had proved, that, without the aid of some parochial levy, he would not be enabled to raise the complement of men required in time of war; for even supposing it otherwise practicable, upon the great mass of population in the United Kingdom, it would be impossible, consistently with the interest and efficiency of military service, to detach a sufficient number of recruiting parties from the different regiments of the line, to reach the whole of that population. For instance, the population was calculated at 15 millions, spread over 15,000 parishes; and supposing that 500 recruiting parties were detached, the proportion would be, a party to every thirty parishes, or 30,000 men: there would never be sufficient to try within the year, the operation of the recruiting service upon so extensive a field. Last year the number of parties detached on the ordinary recruiting were 450, while those under the Additional Force bill were 260. These consisted of 4000 men, of whom 600 were valuable officers, whom the service could by no means spare; and when the expence of maintaining those officers and soldiers on the recruiting service was considered, it was clear that the expence must be added to the charge of raising the men. This amounted last year to 201,000l. which, on an average of the men raised, amounted to no less a sum than 18l. per man, exclusively of all bounty to the recruits themselves. Now, if the rt.

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hon. gent. would compare this with the expence of raising men under this bill, be would find that the charge in the parishes did not exceed an average of 4 guineas per man. Had his majesty's late minister continued in office, it was certainly their intention to have taken advantage of that system for the general recruiting service, and to have established a kind of parochial agency in every part of the kingdom. He knew too well the opinions of the rt. hon. gent. of such agency to suppose he would adopt it, considering, as he did, every man in coloured clothes, who raised a recruit, as nothing better than a crimp. But, from the best enquiries he could make, he was able to learn, that any benefit to be derived in that way must be under the local influence of the parishes, and not by any unknown officers appointed by government, who would infallibly become obnoxious to the people, be regarded as crimps, and their exertions prove totally unsuccessful. He would not deny that abuses had existed under the operation of the act in question; but he denied that they existed to the extent that had been stated, or that they were in their nature incurable With all these abuses, however, they had already furnished the country with a very considerable augmentation of its military force, and much more might still be expected from its operation. One abuse had been stated to be, the circuitous bounty which had been given to those entering the line; but this only amounted to 5 guineas per man, and did not extend to more than 3,800 men, who had enlisted for general service. It had also been said, that the practice of raising men by agency had been an abuse arising from the act. But he would contend, that it was as much local in its operation as the militia service; and that under it, the men were in general as strictly levied within every particular county. Besides, then was nothing in the nature even of the militia service, which prevented the introduction of agency to a certain extent. The system of agency had always existed, in some degree, even in the militia, and was not an abuse confined to the act. It was not surprising that the measure should have been at first sight received by gentlemen in the country, with some degree of lassitude and indifference, from the experience they had of preceding plans; and he would venture to predict, that the rt. hon. secretary's levy-en-masse would meet with a similar reception. It had also been said, the operation of the act had been oppressive to the country; but we
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had likewise to consider the momentous situation in which the country was placed, and the difficulties with which we were surrounded. (Here Mr. Windham whispered the expression "a bed of roses.") The noble lord continued, by observing, that he perfectly understood the allusion of the rt. hon. gent. and would again repeat, that as the exigencies of the country were great, the present was not the proper season for repealing an act that had been found, on the whole, productive; and he trusted, that the house, and the country, would compare the expence occasioned by it with its results, and would make their option. But, he contended, that when properly acted upon, it had not been attended with so much expence as had been stated. In support of which, he instanced the county of Leicester, where the full complement of 200 men had been raised, and at a much less expense than the Same number had been raised under the army of reserve act. Wherever the act had been carried into effect with zeal and activity, there it had produced the desired effect; but its partial failure was not surprising, when it was recollected what contests the measure had occasioned in that house, how many efforts had been made to obtain its repeal, and in how few counties it had been acted upon with zeal and energy. When it was also considered how complete had been the ignorance of the parish officers with regard to its nature, and how much trouble the applications to the justices for its explanation had occasioned, its failure in many parts of the country would create still less surprise. But now since its nature had been more fully understood, its produce had been gradually increasing, and we were entitled, from the opinions given by the inspecting field officers, to expect that it would still continue to increase. He felt confident, that nothing which the rt. hon. secretary bad hitherto brought forward, was at all calculated to compensate the loss which the country would sustain by the repeal of the act: and he would venture to predict, that were his plans adopted, it would be necessary, in less than a year, to have recourse to some stronger measure than had yet been fallen upon, for supplying that deficiency in our military strength, which his plans would produce.—There was a clause in the bill before the house, to which he had the strongest objections; namely, that which went to indemnify parishes from those fines which they had already incurred under the operation of the act. This he contended, would be equi-

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valent to parliament surrendering its authority, would be incompatible with the dignity of the legislature, and would operate as a pernicious precedent in future. It was also unjust, in as much as it placed the active and neglectful parishes exactly on the same level. In proof of this, he should adduce the instance of Mary-la-bonne parish. Its quota nude the reserve act had been 225, and under the present act 80; but it had not raised, and indeed had not endeavoured to raise a single man under either. On the other hand, St Anne's parish, in the immediate vicinity, had found every man of its quota, and these parishes were now proposed to be placed precisely on the same footing, and the latter might console itself as it best could, uncle all its expence and trouble, while the former got off triumphant. It went to remove every distinction between those parishes that did their duty under the act of parliament and those that neglected it.— He apologized to the house, for having taken up so much of their time on this occasion, but the subject itself was of such importance, and branched out into so many ramifications, that he did not feel competent to do it justice without entering much into detail. On the whole, he was convinced that no measure which the rt. hon. gent. could bring forward, would produce an equal number of men with the act which it was proposed to repeal. Indeed, if it were his wish to involve his Majesty's Ministers in difficulty and disgrace, he could not pursue a more effectual course than to suffer the bill to pass, to withdraw all opposition from the proposed system, and to permit the measures meant to be brought forward to pass without any comment or amelioration. But he was so thoroughly convinced of the effect that the bill under discussion would have on the military strength and ultimate security of the country, that he should oppose it in every stage. He contended that the bill proposed to be repealed Was advantageous, and not objectionable, and capable of improvement as to the abuses that were so much insisted upon, as well as rendered highly productive to the army. On all these grounds, therefore, he should vote against the Speaker's leaving the chair.
Mr. Denis Brownyobjected to the plan proposed by the rt. hon. secretary, as calculated to change the whole military system of the country. He would not consent to the repeal of the Additional Force bill, because he looked upon it as productive, and had reason to know it had proved efficient. He could not consent to give up such a mea-
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sure for a system, no part of which he could approve of. The measure had succeeded completely in Ireland. In the 18 months since it had passed, there had been raised in .Ireland 4552 men under its operation. These men had been raised in the manner directed by the act on the bounty allowed by law. No more money was paid than the act directed, on raising the men. He had been informed, even by a learned judge, who went the North-East circuit, that he had been applied to at an assizes, to suspend the levy of the penalties incurred for some deficiencies under the act, to the last day of the Assizes. The judge did so and the men were all produced. On these grounds, he should vote against the repeal.
Lord Henry Pettythought it sufficient, in answer to what had been said by the hon. gent. below him, to observe, that he had spoken of Ireland, whereas the present bill went only to the repeal of the act in England. With regard to the question now before the house, with whatever surprise and regret he heard this oppressive measure of the Additional Force act defended, his concern was not unmixed with satisfaction, that now the noble lord had consented to try the matter on its own merits. When this measure was at first proposed, it was brought forward in opposition to the plans of the former administration, and it was of the effects which it had produced that we were now called upon to judge. In trying the merits of the act, which he acknowledged the noble lord, as fir as he went, stated pretty fairly, he would set aside every thing that was objectionable in the constitution of the act itself, and consider it with a view to the purpose which it was designed to answer, the success of which he would admit, for the present, would entitle it to the adoption of the house. The repeal of the act was founded on its complete failure in all its objects. The noble lord would observe that its first object was to procure a large and fixed supply for the regular army, a supply proportioned to the dificiencies in the army of reserve and the militia. Now, he would beg the indulgence of the house while he stated what the act ought to have obtained, what it did obtain, and what were the penalties on the counties. The deficiencies in the militia were 16,939 men, and in the army of reserve 8,975 men. Altogether, then, the bill before the 1st of Oct. 1805, ought to have produced 25,914 men. The parishes did produce somewhat above 4000 men, and incurred penalties to the amount of 450,605l. Now, here he in-

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cluded the numbers raised by the military men, though the noble lord had taken the numbers in Scotland and Ireland, whereas this bill went only to repeal the act in England. But he heard from the noble lord, that the time had at length arrived when the parish officers would be instructed, when the inspectors would relieve the country gentlemen, and when the whole operose machinery of this act would be put in motion. He solicited the house therefore, to attend prospectively to the effects which this act was likely to produce, and in what situation it would leave the country at the end of autumn. Looking then at casualties, vacancies in the militia, &c. the total number of men which the act ought to produce on the 1st of Oct. 1806, was 27,132 men. Now, take it at its most productive rate, which was. 170 men per week, the number which it would produce was 4,930 men, which would leave a deficiency of 22,202 men, and causing penalties to the amount of 515,000l. Was this a tax that was to be allowed by the house? If such was its principle, if such its provisions, and if this was the way in which it was to be regarded, was it not a boon to the country to have this act repealed? Was not the repeal of it a duty which his rt. hon. friend owed to the country? But, there was another consideration which called for the repeal of this act; and that was, the quality of the troops which it produced; examples of which would he found by recurring to the papers on the table. What would the house think of the quality of the troops when out of 11 453, or thereabouts, 2,116 had deserted? And this too, arising from an act supported by those who objected to the plan of his rt. hon. friend on grounds which, in their Opinion, bore some resemblance to this. But let us look at the means by which these men were raised. Were they raised by the act? Certainly not: for it had totally failed. But the noble lord (Castlereagh) said that the unwillingness of the parish officers was now removed. The inspectors, however, according to the papers on the table, seemed to have found these officers strangely unwilling. But this unwillingness appeared, by some, to be considered as a fault, and a desire to avoid a duty. Now, if a person as he was on his way to that house, were to come to him and ask him to go along with him to erect or finish a fortification, he would consider it as not a little hard, if he was to be told that he had not done his duty, because he refused to go and abandon that duty which was more particularly confined to his charge. So the
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parish officers had duties to perform, totally distinct from those imposed on them by this act, and in some measure incompatible with them; and therefore their unwillingness was not matter of much surprise. But who objected to the plan of his rt. hon. friend on the ground of its making this country too military? Why, the very persons who supported this act which went to put those in a military capacity who were least of all fitted for it, from the nature of the other duties which they had to attend to. The object of the bill was to put an end to crimping and to high bounties, and so far was it from answering this object, that it encouraged both. The parish officers Were lowed to have recourse to crimps; and you might limit the bounty to 12l. as you pleased; but when it was the interest of the party to give any thing less than 32l. set the crimp and the officer together, and something very like 32l. would be given. Add to this, that you were by no means sure that you had a. soldier after all. Out of this criminal conversation, which the crimp and officer held together for the purpose of violating the bill, what did you gain? Why, a man for limited service, that most useless, as it had been said, of all sorts of men. And all this too, by the operation of the sympathy which must exist between the battalions, when, perhaps, they had no connection whatever with each other! And this was supported by those who objected to the plan of his rt. hon. friend on the grounds of its sentimentality, while they followed regular rules. They adapted their philosophy to their system, while he adapted his system to his philosophy; to principles founded upon observation of human nature, and established by the experience of ages. But not only were the means employed bad; they were often the very same which it was the object of the bill to destroy. The object was to set free the recruiting for the regular army. He would, therefore, state the fluctuations that had taken place in the recruiting service, in consequence of those measures. The noble lord had acted unfairly, for he had gone back to a period of peace. It was true, government then wanted men; but they got as many as they wanted, and there they stopped. But in six months of 1803, the number recruited for the regular army amounted to 6,538 men; in the next six months it fell to 4,504; and in the next six months to 3,749. In the next six months the number was 5,949, and in the next 6,698. But when the additional force act came into

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operation, the number sunk to 4,600 men. The deficiency of the last six months kept pace with the increased operation of the act. This deficiency was 1,898 men. The act produced 1,960 men, a number which was only a little greater than the amount of the deficiency, and these few additional men were procured with all the increase of bounty, and the oppressive and vexatious circumstances that attended the execution of this act. This, after all, was but one view of the subject. He had only attended to the effects of the act as they were connected with what had been promised from its operation. He would not detain the house with a detail of the objections to this measure from the manner in which it employed the parish officers and other matters; but even from what he had stated, he was totally at a loss to understand what could be the use of retaining such an act as that which the house was now called upon to repeal. It might, to be sure, be useful to a few persons in opposition, for certainly an opposition less independent, and less pure, than that which we now had, might make use of it to clog the measures of government. They might say, "You want to get rid of crimps, but we leave you that which must preclude the possibility of getting rid of them. You want to raise the character of the soldier, but we leave you that which will render your doing so impossible." But these were not the motives of the hon. gents over the way They no doubt defended this measure from the natural partiality which they must feel for a plan, in the arrangement of which they themselves had assisted. But it was said, that we argued from abuses; this was true, but what sort of abuses? not such as might be remedied, but abuses arising from the nature of the act, and which were absolutely necessary in its operation.—Now, this was all that the intended to have said: but the conclusion of the noble lord's speech required a few words by Bray of answer. He lamented that the penalties were to be repaid to the parishes. In answer to that, he had only to lament that this was absolutely necessary, unless part wished to retain the act, and where the alternative was to keep it unless you repaid the penalties, the house could not hesitate long, it was another objection to the act, that it was so difficult to get rid of it. But this was the only way in which the matter could be managed. The penalties could not be exacted after the act was repealed, and unless they were paid back to those who had
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already paid them, they would suffer the grossest injustice. This was a great inconvenience, but it was a thing there was no avoiding, and necessity must be its excuse. I was therefore a boon to the public to repeal this act, and a debt which his rt. hon. friend owed to the nation, as it was in the highest degree oppressive and vexatious, and at the same time completely inadequate to the purposes for which it was originally intended.
Mr. Babingtonsaid, that it was unquestionable that the provisions of the act had for their object to raise men, instead of which the act had only operated to raise money. In the county of Leicester, he knew that those 200 men that were stated by the returns on the table as having been raised by parish officers, were in fact only handed over by the recruiting serjeants of other corps, as men that being under size, could only be admitted in this description of force. Five guineas a man was given to a recruiting officer for getting persons of that description, and the act was never in that county considered to be any thing but an act to raise money in the parishes. The apportionment that was made of the men to be raised in the respective parishes, was not on the proportion of their population, but of their wealth and their ability to contribute. He therefore thought the act had completely failed in its proposed objects, and ought to be repealed.
Col. Bagwellwas astonished to hear an hon. gent. who spoke early in the debate assert, that inflammatory language had been made use of by the gentlemen who opposed the bill. Such an assertion, he conceived, never could be established to the satisfaction of the house, and therefore should not have been made. He was of opinion, that if ever there was a cause which mere than another called forth the patriotic feelings of the country, it was the present. When the rt. hon. gent. who brought in the bill now under debate, and his colleagues, first came into office, the public were elated with the hope, that some measure, beneficial to the country, would be undertaken; but, instead of having these hopes realized, they were astonished to find that nothing which was likely to be so, was proposed; and, in short, that the new administration had not only not increased the number of the army, but that they had not endeavoured to increase the spirits of it. He then referred to the late gallant achievement of the British force, at the Cape of Good Hope, and said, that the rt, hon. secre-

17
tary, instead of being the first to move for the thanks of the house to the officers and soldiers who fought so gloriously on that occasion, was the very first who threw an obstacle in the way of that vote. As to the defence act, whatever imperfection it might have, he thought it better than nothing, and the rt. hon. gent. had not proposed any thing as a substitute for it. He was happy to think that a minister, now no more, had founded the military establishment of this country on so permanent a footing, that so long as it continued under the fostering cave of the royal person now at its head, not all the chimerical ideas of the rt. hon. gent. would be able to overturn it.
Mr. Leebegan by stating, that although by the returns on the table, it appeared that in the county he had the honour to represent (the county of Waterford) the parish officers had raised above 100 men, yet he could say, from his own certain knowledge, that there were not two men raised in the county in that manner. The number was entirely made up of men under the size of 5 feet 4 inches, who had been handed over to the parish officers by the serjeants who had been recruiting other descriptions of service. In England there were no less than 14 counties, in which not a man had been raised by parish officers; and in the large county of York, which ought to have produced 5,674, no more than 407 had been raised altogether within the last 18 months. He thought it was a great objection to the bill that, in the course of 18 months, it could not be understood by those whose duty it was to execute it. On the score of economy, it was most ridiculous to lay it down, that only 10 guineas should be given as bounty to a person enlisting for general service at once, but that 12 should be given to those who enlisted for this force, and 10 more if they should go from that to the regular army. It was only cheating ourselves, and picking our own pockets, to say that we were ready to give the same man 12 guineas in the morning and 10 more in the evening, or to put 12 guineas in one of his hands, and ten in the other, but to say, at the same time, that upon the ground of economy, we could not think of giving such a bounty as 22 guineas at one time. It would be confessed by every body, that the efficiency of the bill was rather in the breach than in the observance: it was by the infraction of the law that the object and policy of it was obtained. This was a system so contrary to all ideas of morality and good government, that were there
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no other reason, he thought the bill ought to be repealed. As to the plan that had been proposed by the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) as a substitute for this bill, he must say, that, generally speaking, he approved highly of it, and thought it would be likely to be a very efficient and useful measure; but there was one part of it he never could agree to; and that was permitting soldiers to throw up their muskets, and retire during the continuance of the very war in which they had been enlisted, if their term of 7 years had expired. This was a part of it that he knew a great many of the rt. hon. gent's. friends would oppose; and as for himself, he should rather reject the plan altogether than admit such a principle. As to the parish bill, however, considering that it had failed in all the objects for which it was introduced, he should certainly vote for its repeal.
Sir E. Hartopp,took the opportunity of paying a compliment to the county be had the honour to represent, that it had raised the whole of its quota. They forbore at first because they did not understand the bill, but they had afterwards used every means their power to carry the act into execution, and the county stood pre-eminently, if not solely on the ground of having obeyed and executed with alacrity the act of the legislature.
Mr. Percevalsaid, he considered the present system to be better than any which had been proposed to be substituted for it. If the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) had thought this act so bad in itself, or so unconnected with other parts of the military system, he certainly need not have delayed so long in moving the repeal. The rt.hon gent. however, by his conduct in that respect, sheaved that he considered it necessary to state some other system to the house, before he called upon them to repeal that act. He could not therefore complain, if the gentlemen on that side of the House should think it necessary to examine a little what kind of a substitute was to be presented to them. The rt. hon. gent. had appeared to agree with the author of the act, that 3,00,000 men was about the number to which the army of the country should be raised. The army actually existing, amounted to 267,000, which in point of number, was not much inferior to what ho himself thought necessary. As to every thin else which constituted the excellence of an army, high spirit, good discipline and so forth, the rt. hon. gent. seemed to confess, that nothing was wanting in the British army

19
as it now stood. Now, as to the number, the small deficiency which now existed would, in the course of a few years, be supplied by the regular operation of the existing system. The annual waste of the army by casualties, was reckoned at 15,000. On the other side, the general recruiting service produced, on an average, 11,000 every year, and the act that it was now proposed to repeal, produced, at the lowest calculation, 9,000, which left a regular increase to the army of .5,000 annually The plan, however, which was proposed in place of this system, was one that, primâ facie, did not promise any increase at all. Although the act had not been productive in many parts of England, yet it was allowed that. in Ireland considerable number of men had been raised under it: but although the repeal now moved for was only the Additional Force act that affected England, yet if that was abandoned on the ground of its being obnoxious, oppressive and tyrannical, there must be a similar bill for repealing the Additional Force act for Ireland. It was not to be supposed that a system so obnoxious as not to be endured in this country, was to be rivetted on Ireland. As to the noble lord (H. Petty), who complained of the act so much on account of the hardships the parishes suffered by its pressure, surely the noble lord would not think that that alone was a sufficient reason for repealing it. He would put it to that noble lord, would it be a sufficient ground for opposing his own measures of finance, to say that they pressed hard on the country? The noble lord would not admit such an argument as conclusive against his 10 per cent. property bill, which was supported on the strange and fanciful idea, that it was more consoling to the feelings of the nation, to see at once how high the tax could be carried, without going through any gradations of increase. The noble lord would certainly reply, that he knew such a tax must press hard upon the people; but he did not know any other that would produce what was wanting with less pressure. It was upon that principle that he should defend the act that it was now proposed to repeal. He should say, that he knew no other system more likely than the present to obtain the number of men that were wanting. It was rating it low to say, that with the assistance of this act, no less than 20,000 recruits were obtained annually. He should then ask, had ever the ordinary recruiting service, without that assistance, produced that number? If not, the excess must be attributed to the
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operation of this act. But, supposing that the act should be repealed, and in the course of the next year it was to be found, that instead of an increase, in consequence of the plan of the rt. hon. gent. it should produce an absolute diminution, what then must be done? If the plan should fail, it was evident that they must then have recourse to compulsion of some sort or another. He thought gentlemen that felt so much tenderness and compassion for the hardships to which the parishes were now exposed, would do well to consider what they must be exposed to next year, if the plan of the rt. hon. gent. should not produce the effect he expected. In such case they must either have recourse to the ballot, or else to that sort of compulsion which acts upon the purse rather than upon the person. The ballot would certainly be more oppressive than the present act, for should the ballotted men find substitutes, there would be precisely the same quantum of money levied upon the parishes, but in a manner much more unequal and oppressive to individuals. As to the plan that had been stated by the rt. hon. gent as a substitute for this measure, there was no certainty of its being adopted by parliament, and therefore if the existing act was repealed, it would be possible that there would be nothing to set in its place. (Cries of hear, hear! from the ministerial bench) However clamorously gentlemen might cry hear, hear! he must say they had produced no documents to influence the House, and that it was too much to expect them to act on their prejudices alone. He could not but complain of the house being deprived of the authority of the opinions of the general officers who had been consulted. He understood, however, that with the exception of one, all of them had been against discharging soldiers in time of actual war. He should ask the rt. bon. gent. had not the officers of the artillery been consulted? Had they not actually remonstrated? (Mr Windham answered, no.) He really had understood that they had, and that they stated, that before a man had been ten years in the artillery, he was not fit to be a serjeant, and that it was between the 10th and 20th year of the service that they were the most useful. As to the part of the plan which was to prevail upon the men to renlist for a second period of 7 years, be, thought it could not he adopted. The rt. hon. gent. had not proposed to give any second bounty, but only an increased pay of 6d. a week. Could any body suppose that this 6d week would have as strong an ef-

21
feet as a bounty of 14 guineas? Or could any one fancy, that the annuity of 6d week was the value of that bounty? If any of these men wished to re- enlist, they would certainly go into another regiment and take the second bounty. What was the rt. hon gent's. idea with respect to the volunteers he could not pretend to say, he did not know whether he meant to encourage or discourage them. The rt. hon. gent. had professed, that he rather wished that the number of volunteers should be increased, but he could not see how that wish was consistent with the opinions he had so often delivered upon that subject. For his part, he was as warm an advocate as any man for the volunteer system, which he considered the most important; the most effectual, and the cheapest defence of the country. But if the rt. hon. gent's. opinion of them was correct, and that the volunteers never could be made efficient under the present system, nor ever act in line, or assist in the manner that was intended, it appeared to him lit in such case they ought to be dissolved. The reports of the inspecting officers were, however, quite in opposition to this opinion; and one general officer, now high in his majesty's councils, (lord Moira) had reported that the volunteers of Scotland were to be brought out against any enemy, and that he would head them with greatest confidence. He was afraid, however, that the rt. hon. gent. had taken all his ideas of the volunteers from the corps which he himself commanded, the Felbrig volunteers. That corps in itself united every thing which the rt. hon. gent. had been so accustomed to condemn. In the first place, of all the corps that subsisted in the county of Norfolk, this was the only one in which the commander had taken the title of colonel, all the rest of the volunteer commanders in the county were content with being merely captains. The composition of this corps was also somewhat singular. There were 73 privates, but no staff, no field officer, no captain, no subalterns, no drummers, and only two serjeants, which was of course too little to instruct the men at all in what they ought to do. The rt. hon. gent. seemed to wish to exemplify in his own corps all time imperfections which he complained of in the volunteer system. If at any time he saw in Hyde Park, or any where else, such an appearance of discipline as staggered his opinion, he immediately comforted himself with the recollection of his own corps in the country, and of their indiscipline and want of subordina-
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tion. He could not, however, consent that the volunteers of England should be judged of by the Felbrig corps. As to the levy-en-masse, the rt. hon. gent. with all that courtesy and conciliating manners, that he generally used towards those who opposed his measures, said that he did not like it the better for coming from their shop. He must tell him, however, that in speaking of their shop, he did not understand the wares and merchandize it produced. Nothing was more unlike than the levy-en-masse act which they proposed, and that of the rt. hon. gent. They proposed it only on the ground of urgent necessity, and in the act itself encouraged and invited the nation to be freed from its hardships, by offering their voluntary service. It was for this that they had granted so many exemptions. The rt. hon. gent's. plan, however, gave no encouragement to voluntary service, but only permitted men to retreat into it as a sort of asylum. The great advantage of the subsisting act in its principle was, that it multiplied the number of recruiting officers, by interesting 10,000 parishes in the recruiting service, instead of 500 men; and many of these people would, in the ordinary course of recruiting, never be visited by a recruiting party. He should propose to the rt. hon. gent. instead of totally changing the present system, to try an experiment in the present year, which, if successful, would induce parliament to agree to his plan in the course of next year. Suppose he would allow the second battalions to remain and to recruit at the same time for the different descriptions of service with different bounties; supposing 12 guineas for service limited both in time and space, 14 guineas for service limited in time but not in space, and 16 for general service; then by the number of men raised by the temptation of those different bounties, it would be seen in what light the different descriptions of service were viewed by these inclined to enlist He thought the present system must he more efficient than that of the rt. hon. gent. in raising men, as at present, whoever choose to enter for limited service might have in time additional force a service limited in space as well as in time. This, therefore, being more limited, than even what that rt. hon. gent proposed, would on his own principles be more attractive. He therefore must oppose the new plan, as having a great chance of not producing as many men as the present system, but no probability of producing more.
Mr. Secretary Foxsaid he rose on this oc-

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casion with an opportunity of indulging what he certainly did not wish to indulge, namely, party-triumph, because very one of the objections which he with others had had the honour of stating against the bill now sought to be repealed, had been admitted to-night, even by the advocates for the continuance of that bill—not only admitted, but even avowed, and yet these gentlemen called for its continuance. They said that the house should not take it according to its origin, for that the merits of the bill had but begun to be understood, and that its beneficial operation was but just commencing! thus it appeared, that a bill which had for its object to raise a number of men who were to be provided with promptness for our military force, was to be a year and an half before it commenced its advantageous operation; a year and an half elapsed before those who were called upon to execute it properly understood its real meaning. O wise legislature, that could thus enact laws to remove difficulties! O still more wise executive government, who could thus provide for the safety of the state on a sudden emergency! To be eighteen months in executing that which was to save the country from impending ruin on the instant! He knew of no humiliation greater than that which belonged to those who were to defend a bill enacted for such a purpose, and which had produced such an effect. A bill to make doubtful points clear, took 18 months for its framers to understood. its operation! A bill to furnish the country with an immediate supply of force to defend the country in the hour of danger, did not begin to produce any effect in less than 18 months. But this bill, instead of having any beneficial effect whatever was full of confusion, created great inconvenience, might produce great oppression, and had already done much injury to the service it was intended to promote—the recruiting service of the army; and it was singular enough that the very advantage which the friends of the bill now proposed by its continuance, was to arise from enlarging the districts in which the parish officers were to act under it, which was absolutely abandoning the principle of the bill; for the principle was that of availing ourselves of local advantages. Men were supposed to be raised in considerable numbers in a district, because they were told that they were to act together, and be commanded by those whom they knew; and now the officers were to travel out of those districts, and abandon all these advantages. Such was the measure which was defended by those
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who were so much at enmity with wild and fanciful theories, and sentimental projects! In a word, the parish bill was now defended upon arguments that were utterly subversive of the principles on which the bill itself was founded. He was glad the house had been referred to the calculation of the produce of the bill. He had followed the advice of the noble lord (Castlereagh), by looking at them, and he should detail some of them to the house, although the noble lord, prudently for his argument, had abstained from it. The system of recruiting was here to be found by the various returns which had been made under this bill, but they all sung the same note. This recruiting was carried on under the employment of agents, for he would not call them crimps (a laugh). This occasioned additional bounty to be paid by the parishes, a thing intended to have been prevented by the bill, so that to continue the bill at all, not only the worst part of it should be put most in force, but that must be done also which the bill itself was intended by its framers to prevent. So much for the principle of the bill, which had been attempted to-day, not by the noble lord, but by the hon. and learned gentleman who spoke last, to be supported by considering other matters which were unconnected with it; the learned gent. had dilated on topics, the adoption or rejection of which had concern with this bill; for the parish bill might justly be repealed though no other military system should be adopted in its stead; the Volunteers or any other part of our military system would remain where it stood after the repeal of this bill. As to the levy en masse, of which the learned gent. had spoken, that was a measure the adoption or rejection of which would remain as entire after the repeal of this bill as at the present moment. It then might be asked, what substitution was to be had for the parish bill? to which his answer was, that the only substitution for tile parish bill, or the Additional Force bill as it was called, was the repeal of it, because it had about it evils for which a repeal was the only remedy. Getting rid of the bill was only getting rid of a loss. But there came an extraordinary personal argument against his rt. hon. friend (Mr. Windham). It was to be observed that his rt. hon. friend had several points to bring forward in his military system, on which a variety of opinions might arise, on the levy en masse, or on the subject of enlisting for a term of years, or for any other military arrangement; and those who supported the bill now proposed

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to be repealed, entered at large into all the points of the military plan of his rt. hon. friend, as if the present bill ought not to be repealed if any fault could be found with any part of that military plan. The real state of the matter was this: that military plan, embracing as it did, a variety of points, was opened altogether by way of public convenience, that the outline of it might be seen at one view; but it did not thence follow that none of these parts should afterwards be discussed in detail separately; on the contrary, they must be so from their very nature. It might as well be said, when his noble friend opened the Budget, that if any objection could be started against any of the taxes, that therefore the terms of the contract of the loan were bad, or if any objection could be urged against the tax on Iron, or the Property Tax, the whole Budget of taxes must be rejected, however unconnected the rest of the taxes might be with these two. But his rt. hon. friend gave away the produce of the parish bill, because he knew that he was giving away a loss; and this was warranted by a calculation of that produce, as would appear by comparison. He had at first stated, that the produce of the bill was nothing, he must now state that it was even less, it was a minus quantity. He would not allow that the average of the general recruiting had been fairly taken, for it could not be expected to have been the same during peace and war; or, that during the operation of the army of reserve act it could produce as many men as it otherwise would have produced; he should, however, state the actual increase of the army, both by the regular mode of recruiting, and by the assistance of the parish bill, at two different periods. In the months of Oct. Nov. and Dec. 1804, 88 men only were produced by this bill, and 3058 by general recruiting. In the three corresponding months of the year 1805 there were 913 raised by the act, but by general recruiting only 2388. On casting up these sums he must allow that the army had increased 152 men in the latter period; but when he should compare the three months following, Jan. Feb. and March, 1805, and compare them with the corresponding months of 1806, he found that in the former there were 525 raised by the bill, and 3562 by general recruiting; but in the latter period, although there were 661 raised by the bill, there were but 2517 raised by general recruiting. Adding, therefore, those sums together, it appeared there was a deficiency of 909 in the number which the
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army had gained during the latter period. This statement appeared to him a fair comparison of the effect of the bill at the different periods; and he should vote for the repeal, if it was for no other reason than because it was evidently an impediment to the present recruiting service of the army.—When the parish bill ceased to give its noxious assistance to the army, more might be fairly expected from the ordinary recruiting. Gentlemen said they had done much with their favourite bill. The child had done something; but he had kept away the workmen. There was no gent. who could think that it was not a most desirable thing to increase the disposable force. All the arguments he had heard against the plan, did not weigh a feather in his mind. We were called upon to exert the public force, and might be still farther called upon, from the circumstances that the nature of the present times might produce, to facilitate, as far as possible, the means of recruiting the army. He should, when the opportunity came, endeavour to state, as far as his capacity allowed him, that no plan yet mentioned was so likely to produce the desired effect, as that of his rt. hon. friend. Gentlemen, on the other side, seemed always to think they had better grounds debate, than those which were furnished by the matter immediately before them. They were alarmed without knowing the reasons. Ignorance was certainly one ground of terror. As to the levy en masse, he granted that there might be some difficulties, but the objections of the scrupulous might be removed in the committee. He must, however, think that the principle itself was perfectly right. A certain degree of general enrolment appeared to him to be the most solid defence of the country. In this free country we must look, for a great portion of our defence, to the general patriotism, zeal, and ardour of the community. As to the question concerning the Volunteers, the gentlemen asked what was to be done with them? Were they to be diminished or increased? The only object proposed was, to render them more useful, by some better plan for their future regulation. The. provisions to that effect were matter of future consideration. A principal topic of misrepresentation on the other side, was what had fallen from his rt. hon. friend two years back, on the subject of the volunteers. With respect to the general tendency of what his rt. hon. friend had then said, he must observe, that it coincided with his own. opinions, and, therefore, if it had given great offence, he

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must, equally with him, plead guilty. He thought then highly of the volunteers, but he thought also, that their patriotism and bravery might have been better directed. But what then? Those sentiments he expressed at a time when they were hardly formed into that shape which they had afterwards borne. His having entertained that opinion originally, respecting the mode of forming such a force, was not a sufficient reason why he should now endeavour to destroy the whole system. It was not by referring to what had been said 2 or 3 years ago upon the formation of the system, that the opinions and conduct of gentlemen, respecting the volunteers, were now to be judged. He certainly thought, that this force might have been better modelled. In this, however, he was perfectly clear. Whatever else the house did, let them repeal this bill. All points that concerned the allowances and rank of the volunteers might he as well settled after the repeat of this act, as they could at present. The principle of limited service for time might be adopted, or qualified, or rejected, just as well as now. The propriety of adopting other modes of recruiting the army were quite independent of this bill. The high words he had heard on this question should not affect him. He was not disposed to disregard or neglect the opinions of those who were conversant upon the subject, respecting limited service, but he was perfectly convinced that it was a measure of safety; that it was not inconsistent with the system of of our army, nor repugnant to any principle of the constitution; and he thought gentlemen would afterwards be ashamed of the language they had used in opposition to the proposal.
Mr. Keckreferred to the number of men which had been raised by the bill in Leicestershire, and argued from hence against its repeal.
Mr. Fullersupported the motion. He was persuaded that the great man with whom it originated (Mr. Pitt), would, if he were now alive, be among the most forward to call for the repeal of this measure. And he would recommend the present chancellor of the exchequer, whom he saw as a phœnix arising from the ashes of that great man, to abandon or to follow as he did, any measure which justice prescribed, without any studious regard to popularity. Let not that noble lord follow popularity, but let him act rightly, and popularity would follow him. He told the rt. hon. framer of this bill, when he first brought it in, that it would not an-
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swer, and his opinion had been so fully verified, that he should vote for its repeal.
Mr. Canningprofessed his disinclination to obtrude himself for any length of time on the attention of the house, being already too sensible of the indulgence shewn him by the house. He condemned the mode adopted by the rt. hon. secretary of state, of marking out the scope and circuit of the debate, from which no member was to depart. Did ministers conceive that their statements were to go for argument and decision? Had the question before the house been the repeal of the Income Tax, would not gentlemen have a right to examine what was to be substituted in its place? The rt. hon. gent had stated that he had many measures to propose, yet he showed uncommon earnestness to do away this single measure of his predecessor. The chancellor of the exchequer in his financial measures had established the plans of his predecessor, and had proposed the means of continuing them. The rt. hon. secretary (Mr. Fox) hid placed the question on such narrow grounds, the experience only of a few months, that he could scarcely consider his view of the subject as originating with himself. The modes of comparison taken were unfair. He could produce from the documents, months when the army recruiting was high and the operation of the act low, and vice versa; and others again when both were high. The noble lord had said, that the debate was only on the act for England. Did he mean to say, that it was not to be debated generally? Did he mean that the house were to begin again ab initio, upon the acts that respected Scotland and Ireland? Would he not think that such a mode would be idle, and even embarrassing? But the noble lord had stated the desertions of the whole force against the single produce of England. Had he calculated the difference, he would have found it materially to affect his sentiments. Into the other statements he should not enter, ab uno disce omnes. The militia had not been extended, because it was not found that it could support itself to the full extent. But would the house part with an act which extended the advantages of the militia, and recruited, at the same time, the regular force, without the inconveniencies of a standing army? Gentlemen might wish the repeal from various reasons. It was the only measure of his deceased rt. hon. friend that they could get rid of. Let them gratify their hatred of their predecessor as they pleased; but let them not deprive the country of the operation of

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a valuable and efficient measure. The necessity of a regular force was universally admitted but let them not the voluntary forces of the country, and throw a ridicule upon them.
Lord H. Pettyexplained, that he had stated the number of men raised in England, Scotland, and Ireland. He hoped, that when the rt. hon gent. assumed credit to himself for his accuracy, he would not be forward to accuse others of inaccuracy.
The Lord Advocate of Scotland (Mr. H. Erskine)rose to make a few remarks upon the operation of the act in that part of the united kingdom. Every body who knew any thing about Scotland, must know that the act was in that country nothing more than a tax of 20l. upon the parishes, for scarcely a man could be raised by it. In the county of Edinburgh, a place that one would have thought very likely for procuring men, where there were a number of the idle and poor, not a single man could be got. The people of Scotland were a very sagacious people; they kept the bounds the law prescribed them, and when they could not get the men, they paid the money. He had attended the county meeting of Edinburgh, when nothing could be done to facilitate the raising of men. Who were the parish officers? The school-master and the sexton: but the sexton's efforts to raise the men were found unavailing. Yet in the county of Ayr they did contrive to get men How? by sending to manufacturing towns and employing crimps, or by giving too much money. It was a most extraordinary way of raising men under a particular act, by violating the act itself. He hoped the house would in such cases impute their conduct to their loyalty and zeal, rather than to any thing else. He did not feel himself quite competent to judge of a measure which had been introduced into the house before he had the honour of sitting there; but from all he had heard, he had no difficulty in voting for the repeal of the act. It was useless. It was oppressive and unjust in its operation. It was destructive to the mode of recruiting for the regular army. It could only live by the breach of it. No set of men in the country were more entitled to consideration than the volunteers of Scotland, They were animated by the truest patriotism and valour. If they could he led to any misconception of the plan proposed, it must be from the accounts in the newspapers sent down to them of the speeches of to hon gentlemen
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who so warmly opposed it. He knew that the volunteers of Scotland were sensible men, and would he the first to be satisfied with what the wisdom of the house might enact for the general benefit, to make them most useful to the country. Whatever parliament might enact, he hoped and was confident that their love for their country would be sufficient to make them continue their services with the same cordiality, loyalty, and spirit, they had hitherto evinced.
Mr. Hawthornewished to trespass upon the indulgence of the house for a short time. The statements which he had made in the course of a former debate had been arraigned as partial, by a noble lord on the opposite bench. He wished he bad thought proper to point out in what respect they were inaccurate. He had the documents in his hand to which he had referred on a former evening, and with the permission of the house, he would again apply to them (loud cry of question, question). He perceived the house was not inclined to hear him, and he would therefore sit down.
Mr. Bragge Bathurstdeclared that it was with reluctance he obtruded himself upon the house, but the speech of the rt. hon. gent. had made it necessary for him to say a few words. He supported the statement of the chancellor of the exchequer, respecting the amount of desertions, and contended, in opposition to the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Canning), that the average had been fairly taken. His principal object, however, in rising, was to justify himself and his friends for having formerly consented to continue the act, and now voting for its repeal. It was within his knowledge that the illustrious character who first proposed the act which it was the object of the bill before the house to repeal, never intended that it should operate as a measure of finance. He also knew that it was his intention to make many very material alterations in it. The act as it appeared at present, defective and inefficient as it was, could, not he said to be the same with that brought forward by the illustrious person who first, suggested it. He saw the house was impatient for the question, and he would not take up more of its time than was sufficient for declaring, that he voted for the repeal of the act, upon a full conviction that it had not answered the purpose originally intended.—The question being loudly called for, the gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place. The house afterwards went into a committee pro forma, after which it re-

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sumed, the chairman reported progress, and having obtained leave to sit again the next day, the house adjourned at one o'clock.