Commons Sitting of 27 June 1806

MINUTES.
The Clyde Canal bill was read a third time, and passed.—The Solicitor General brought up the bill for altering and amending the several laws relating to Bankrupts, which was read a first time.—Mr. Vansittart, brought up a bill for regulating the Auditing of Public Accounts. Read a first time.—Mr. Dugdale moved the further consideration of the Report of the Birmingham Canal bill; a conversation ensued on an Amendment moved by sir J. Wrottesley, that the report be taken into consideration this day three months; and a division took place; for the amendment 57; against it 33; majority 24. The bill was of course lost for this session.—Mr. Alexander brought up the Report of the East India Shipping bill, which was agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday.—Sir John Newport, pursuant to notice, moved that the Order of the Day for taking into consideration the County of Wexford Election Petition, on Wednesday, the 3d of July, be deferred to Wednesday the 10th of July, Ordered.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, the house in a committee of Ways and Means, agreed to a resolution for granting a sum of 4,500,000 l. from the arrears outstanding of 14,500,000 l. voted as the produce of the war taxes of the year 1805, and remaining to he received on 30th May 1806. This was to make good a like sum issued on Exchequer bills, on the aids of this year to replace Exchequer Bills of last year to the same amount, called in.—In answer to a question from Mr. Huskisson as to the amount of the outstanding balance of the war taxes for that Year on 30th May last, Mr. Vansittart stated, that the amount received at that time was about 4,900,000 l. He could not however, state exactly; but in a few days the account would be accurately made up. The report to be received on, Monday.—Mr. Hobhouse reported the answers of general Craig to the questions put by a committee of the house, in relation to the charges against marquis Wellesley. Ordered to be printed; as were

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also the minutes of evidence taken before a committee of the whole house upon the Oude charge against the noble Marquis.

BALLOT SUSPENSION BILL.
The house went into a committee on the bill for the suspension of the militia ballot.
Lord Castlereaghthought that though it was not intended now to extend the training to Scotland, correct lists of the population of that country would be useful with a view to its eventual extension to it; and that in a country where military spirit was so prevalent, the suspension of the ballot would be useful with a view to recruiting.
Mr. Winabamthought the continuance of the ballot in that country would operate as a stimulus to volunteering. The lists of the population may be called for at the same time that the training was extended, if at a future time that should seem fit.—The report was brought up, and ordered to be taken into further consideration On Tuesday.

PHILANTHROPIC SOCIETY'S BILL.
Mr. Holfordmoved the order of the day for the third reading of the bill for incorporating the Philanthropic Society. The bill was read a third time, and, after a short adjournment of the proceedings on the third reading, in order to afford time for engrossing a clause proposed by Mr. Tierney, with a view to make the society responsible for any costs or charges that might be incurred by the parish, in case any of the persons educated in the institution should hereafter become a burthen to the parish, the clause was brought up, but opposed by Mr. Holford and Mr. Perceval, on the ground of the absurdity of such a provision, which would have the effect of subjecting the charity to repay to die parish whatever expence it might be put to by persons educated in the institution, who, though they should obtain a legal settlement, might even 40 years hence become a charge upon the parish. The clause Was negatived without a division.
Dr. Laurencecontended for the right of the rector to nominate, or at least to controul, the appointment of the preacher or lecturer in chapels of ease within his rectory, of which description he conceived the chapel of the Philanthropic Society to be, although annexed to a public charity: for it was not confined as a private chapel, for the mere use of the institution, but executed upon a spacious and superb scale,
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obviously opened for a general congregation of the parishioners, and calculated to entice away the regular congregation from the parish church, with an obvious purpose of creating revenue, and of trenching upon the parochial rights of the rector. He took occasion to allude to similar chapels attached to the Asylum, Foundling Hospital, and other public charities, for similar purposes, and the attraction of fashionable and enthusiastic auditors by musical performances, and by a complete departure, on the part of the preacher, from the sober piety, and decorous manner of preaching in the established church: and the adoption of a new-fashioned dramatic style of pulpit-eloquence, addressed to the fancy and imagination, rather than to the heart or understanding, and calculated more to catch the fervor of the enthusiast by high-fraught pictures of the horrors of a death-bed, or the joys or torments of a future state, than by promulgating the truth of the Gospel, to excite to that so lemn and rational piety and devotion, which are so much the characteristics of the established church; and if parliament should be induced to countenance such a system, independant of the controul of the lawful pastor of the parish, the consequence would be, that every year numbers of those chapels would start up in every part of the metropolis and its vicinity, and the parish churches be deserted by more than half their congregations, to follow those new, LIGHTS. He could not therefore consent to so unlawful art infringement upon the rights of the regular church establishment; and he concluded, by moving an amendment, the object of which was, that the rector of St. George the Martyr should have the power of nominating to the appointment of chaplain to this chapel, or, at least, of a negative upon any appointment made without his consent, in order that he might be enabled to secure for the institution the appointment of a clergyman of the established church.
Mr. Holfordobserved, that the hon. and learned gent. seemed to have widely mistaken, and certainly he had widely misstated, he must presume, from misinformation, the facts of this case. This chapel Was not erected with a principal view to revenue, but was certainly built on such a scale, as to accommodate a number of other children, besides those of the institution, who could not find accommo-

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dation in the parish church. He felt that he should be but a feeble antagonist indeed to the hon. and learned gent., if he presumed to contend with him upon ecclesiastical law; but there was one thing he would not find on his books, namely, that chapels of this sort, attached to charitable institutions, and built by charitable contributions, could, by any possibility, come under the description of chapels of ease to the parish church. Such chapels were mostly, if not entirely, of Very modern erection, and not very usual, until long after the law allowing chapels of ease was passed. This chapel was not built at the parish expence, nor was any part of the costs of its establishment charged upon the parish: consequently, it could not come under any description of a chapel of case, any more than that of the Asylum, which, however, was out of the question, because it was protected by a special act of parliament. Neither was it intended, as the hon. and learned gent. was pleased to conjecture, to be converted into a theatre for music, or dramatic eloquence, or enthusiastic rhapsody. Those who conducted that institution were as sound protestants of the established church as any of those who opposed it, and as little likely to promote schisms or innovations in the mode of public worship. It was an institution originally set on foot about eighteen years since by the charitable contributions of humane persons, for the purpose of educating the bereft orphans of convicted felons, thrown upon the world, Without protection, and of other Children, betrayed to early habits of criminality, but whose tender age rendered them fitter objects for the correction of a moral and religious education, than for the severities of the criminal law; and When it was recollected that this charity, although supported partly, and to a considerable extent, by charitable contributions, yet derived also from the industry of those children who were the objects of its protection, an average sum of not less than 1,200l. annually, he hoped it would not be considered unreasonable that the society should have the management of their own funds, and the appointment of those persons who were to be paid from those funds so long as by the appointment of such persons they sought not to trespass, upon the rights or privileges of any other persons. It Was erroneous to say, that they endeavour-
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ed or wished to deprive any ecclesiastic of the controul he ought legally and reasonably to possess: and this would appear the more unquestionable, when it was told to the house, that at the head of their institution, and foremost in bringing forward this bill, was a protestant bishop. The society did not wish to deprive the rector of st. George the Martyr of his privilege of controul over the appointment of chaplain, or of the negative to that appointment, if it should really be an improper one, and just and reasonable cause assigned. But it was to the privilege of negative, without assigning cause, they gave resistance. No means of conciliation on their parts were left untried to compromise this matter with the rector: the society had proposed to pay him an annual stipend out of their funds to any reasonable extent, in which he should say his interests could be injured by this chapel. And what was his conduct, after taking time to consider their proposal, and giving some grounds to believe he would accept it? Why, a threat to charge them with simony for making the offer. This bill had been repeatedly postponed at the instance of that gentleman, on the promise of his preparing and offering to him (Mr. H.) two clauses, which he wished to have inserted in the bill; but the day passed by, and no such clauses were ever produced. Upon the whole, he must consider the conduct of the rector in this affair, as extremely unbecoming a protestant clergyman, whose object it should be, and whose duty it was, to promote, and not to impede the religious instruction of those children, and the success of a charity to which, however, he never contributed any thing, and which he took much pains to embarrass and obstruct, by keeping this chapel shut three years.— The question upon Dr. Laurence's amendment, was then put and negatived, and the bill read a third time, passed, and ordered to the lords.

BELL ROCK LIGHTHOUSE.
The Lord Advocateof Scotland moved, that the house should go into a committee on the report of the committee in 1803, for erecting a light-house on the Bell Rock on the east coast of Scotland. The learned lord stated that the measure, though universally admitted to be highly advantageous to the shipping interest, and though agreed to by the house in 1803,

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had failed of being carried into effect, in consequence of circumstances which did not now apply. His lordship then moved that it be the opinion of the committee that a lighthouse be erected on the Bell Rock, or Cape, on the east coast of Scotland; near the entrance to the Forth and Tay.
Lord H. Pettyseemed to doubt of the necessity of the measure. On an explanation from the lord advocate, however, he stated that what he had thrown out, he did more in conformity to the opinion of the first lord of the admiralty, than to any opinion he himself had entertained.
Mr. Bakerdid not pretend to be Competent to judge on the subject, but as it seemed to be intended that part of the public money should be expended on the erection, he wished the learned lord would more clearly point out the utility of the measure.
The Lord Advocatereferred for the utility of the measure to the report of the committee in the year 1803. He had no doubt the hon. gent. opposite would have no objection to the measure, if the erection could be made without money. Nay, he conceived it to be a self-evident proposition, that in a mercantile country there could be no objection, if it could be done without expense, that a light should be fixed on every rock in the ocean. The report of the committee, in the present case however, shewed that here there was peculiar danger; that seldom a vessel came near it without being almost instantly dashed to pieces; and that from the circumstance of its being covered at half tide, there was hardly an instance where such an occurrence took place, but every soul perished.
Mr. Percevalexpressed his surprize that the business had been so long delayed. He also thought, if, as was stated the preceding night, no measure could be extended to Scotland at this period of the session, there was no call on the house at so late a period to confer a boon on that country.
The Lord Advocatesaid, he should be able to show, if it should afterwards come before the house, that the measure alluded to was inapplicable to Scotland. He declared that he had no particular predilection for the present measure, which he only brought forward in the discharge of his duty as representing that part of the
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country where the beneficial effects of the measure would be most felt. As to the subject of money for carrying on the erection, that was not now before the house. The only question was, if it would be advantageous that the erection should take place. Besides the funds from Which it would naturally fall to be supported, he understood they would be entitled to a farther sum from the commissioners for northern lights.
Mr. Johnstonerecollected that his hon. relation (sir W. Pulteney) had formerly carried through this measure, and had shewn to the house that it would be highly advantageous to shipping in general, particularly to those ships trading from Hull and Scarborough.
Mr. W. Smithconfirmed the statement. The cause of the former measure not succeeding, was an idea entertained of comprehending the Baltic trade among the ships which were to pay a certain per tonnage, which was objected to. The house, would be better able to judge of the matter when the estimates came in. The resolution therefore had his concurrence.—The committee then passed resolutions declaratory of the advantages which would result from the erection of the lighthouse in question; and that there be paid for every British vessel passing in the line pointed out, being between Peterhead and Berwick-upon-Tweed, a duty of 1½d. per ton, and for every foreign vessel so passing 3d. per ton.

TRAINING BILL.
The house having resolved itself into a committee on the Training bill,
Sir James Pulteneyproposed, as an amendment, that the first 200,000 men should be trained for two years instead of one, so that they would have 48 days training; a plan which would be, more useful than giving 24 days training to double that number.
Mr. Windhamresisted the amendment, because, as this would materially increase the burden, it might produce a greater degree, of dissatisfaction then the advantage was worth. Perhaps the number of days for training might be increased, but that would be for future consideration.
Lord Castlereaghsupported the amendment, and drew a comparison between the expence of this system and that of the volunteers. The expence of the former, he contended, would be greater without the same advantages. Since there was a

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provision in the bill for enabling the king to appoint officers for these trained men, he wished the right. hon. gent. had stated how he was to exercise this power. He thought it a most extraordinary thing, and one which was reserved for the present ministers alone, to ask such a power, without stating how they were to exercise it. These men would be far less efficient than the volunteers, who would be disgusted at the treatment they received.
Mr. Windhamsaid that the noble lord was always fond of referring to the volunteers on all occasions. But this, and a great part of what he said, was quite out of place here. He was hardly excusable in following him, but as to the point of expence, he contended that that of the volunteers, taking the sums provided by private contributions, was much greater than the expence would be under this bill. Besides, here we had the advantage of both systems. It was true that under the bill of 1803 the men were to be trained 40 days. But then 20 of these days were Sundays, and these were here given up. It had been communicated to him from various quarters, that training men on that day diminished the reverence for it. On that point he would leave the noble lord in the hands of the gentlemen near him (Wilberforce and Bankes). If this was the case, we were to consider the disadvantage under which the additional training was gained. He himself wished earnestly to preserve the reverence for the Sabbath. He had shewn it when he wished to suppress the growing evil of Sunday Newspapers, though he did not experience the support from certain gentlemen which he might have expected. He did not think however, that training men on Sundays would diminish their reverence for it, but in this point he had yielded to the opinions of others. As to the officers for these men, he never meant that they should be in the first instance permanently and regularly officered. These the king would appoint as he saw occasion. There must be officers, for instance, in case of invasion, to conduct them to the regiments, as it was not to be supposed that they were to have directions put about their necks and sent off in that Manner.
Mr. Spencer Stanhopewished to ask, whether the men, when at drill, were to be under the command of the serjeant, or of the constable who was to stand over them? He was anxious to know what the
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right hon. gent. menat to do on this head, as, being a deputy lieutenant, enquiries might be directed to him on the subject.
Mr. Windhamreplied, that the serjeant would instruct them, and the constable would instruct them, and the constable would stand by (a loud laugh from the Opposition.) Though gentleman might laugh, he would ask with Bayes in the Rehearsal, "Where was the joke?" He could not preceive any thing laughable in this. The constable was to be present, and to assist the serjeant in the performance of his duty, and this he would be better enabled to do, from long habits of legal obedience in the people.
Mr. Percevalobserved that his right hon. friend's training act had provided a captain, lieutenant, ensign, and serjeant, for every body of 120 men. Here there was some rational provision for discipline and obedience. But there was now to be a constable to take the man to prison, if he did not turn out his toes properly, or obey the signals of "eyes right," or "eyes left," with sufficient promptitude. They were to be taken from the plough or the loom, just as they were, and only one serjeant and a constable to teach or enforce discipline.
Mr. Windhamobserved that even in volunteer corps, the captain was more military in name than in reality: rather a civil than a military character; and he had little doubt that the means now proposed to enforce obedience, would be just as effectual as those which had obtained among the volunteers.
Mr. Percevalreplied that the volunteers had more of the esprit du corps than was likely to belong to the motley collections under the present bill, and therefore were more likely to advance in discipline.
Mr. Bastardwas afraid that frequent quarrels would take place between the serjeant and the constable. Among the volunteers every thing was done by zeal and good will, but here all would be done by force and by the halbert.
Lord H. Petty,in answer to the observation of a noble lord with regard to the want of cloathing if called to act against the enemy, observed, that though in that case they could not be cloathed all at once, yet all those might be cloathed who were to act at one point; and, besides, this could from no objection to their being prepared in the mean time.
Mr. Spencer Stanhopeobjected to the

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clause allowing the deputy lieutenants to choose the time and place for training or exercising; as he did not think that either deputy lieutenant, or any other person, would have a right to order any person to give up his field for that purpose, or even of bargaining for it.
Sir J. Newportreplied that he considered that any deputy lieutenant, or person under them, might make the bargain under the powers of this act.
Mr. Wilberforcestated that many persons, whose opinions were intitled to great weight, objected to Sunday being appointed as the day of training. The actual consequences of its being at all allowed was, that drilling not only went on through the time of divine service, but inspections also took place. This produced a desertion of our churches, and a filling of our ale-houses on Sundays, which, he thought, was subversive of religion. As to the saving of money, that was a fallacious argument, for in every county the price of labour was so proportioned to the means of subsistence, that if men were to labour the seven days, they would receive no more than for working six days.
Mr. Calvertconsidered, that the military instruction was so sacred a daty that it might well be performed of a Sunday. In other countries it had been practised without any ill effect. It was practised in Switzerland, and yet he never heard that the Swiss were either an immoral or an irreligious nation. The fact was, that unless the training was of a Sunday, it would be so inconvenient as to be altogether impracticable.
Mr. Yorkedeclared, that although he had as much regard for the religion of the Country as any other man, yet. he considered that the training on a Sunday (provided that it was not in the hours of divine service) would relieve the labouring class from a great burden. It was not only in Switzerland that this was practised, but in this country it had been the established practice in the time of Henry the 8th, and in later times, that the people should be practised in the use of arms on that day.
Mr. Windhamthought, that instead of causing irreverence and disregard to the Sabbath, it would, on the contrary, exalt and dignify the duty that they had to perform. He therefore supported the clause as it now stood.
Sir J. Pulteneydeclared, that he had seen many volunteers exercising on a Sunday, and he always observed that degree of decency and propriety that he thought gave a great solemnity to it. As to the prejudices of the people at large, he was convinced they were not against it, and he thought it would be extremely hard that the opinions or consciences of a few should deprive the nation of so great a benefit.—A long and desultory conversation took place. Mr. Calvert, who had moved for allowing them to be trained on a Sunday, finding the sense of the house against him, withdrew his amendment, and the clause was passed in its original state.—The chairman had leave to report progress, and the committee was appointed for Monday. Adjourned at two o'clock on Saturday morning.