Commons Sitting of 23 June 1806

MINUTES.
Sir J. Newportbrought up a bill for enabling his majesty to accept the services of Volunteers from the Irish militia, under certain restrictions, which was read a first time.— Sir J. Newport brought up a bill for regulating the collection of the revenue on spirits in Ireland, which was read a first time.— Sir. J. Newport observing that considerable difficulties existed in the trade between Great Britain and Ireland, which existed from regulations made prior to the union, that were now become useless, gave
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notice, that at the commencement of the next session he should move for leave to bring in a bill to remove, as far is was practicable, all obstructions to a fr e commercial intercourse between the two islands.

IRISH ELECTION BILL.
sir J. Newportmoved that the Irish Election bill be committed, with a view, he said, to have the blanks filled up, and to have the bill printed as amended, in order that it might in this state, get into the possession of the public. But he was so convinced of the fitness and the propriety of this bill, and that the more it was considered, the more favourably it would be received, that he would abandon it for the present session, pledging himself to bring in a bill at the commencement of the next session, upon the same principle, and with the same provisions. This he did that there might be no objection as to the point of time and notice, and that no one might say that he took advantage of the influence of his official situation, when he wished the bill to rest entirely on its own merits.
Colonel Verekerobserved, that in agreeing to the present committal, and to the subsequent postponement of the bill until the next session, he begged not by any means to be understood to consent to the principle. The bill was founded on injustice and an invasion of the chartered right of all the corporations in Ireland: charters granted at the earliest period of our history, and enjoyed unmolested and unimpaired, until attacked by the hon. baronet. He should exert every means in his power to pro re the ready petitions of every part of Ireland against this unjustifiable measure, which so far from being beneficial to Ireland, was, he well knew, intended to serve that hon. baronet's purpose in the city of Waterford alone.—The bill then went through a committee; the report was received; the bill ordered to be printed, and to be taken into further consideration on that day trio months.

KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING GREENWICH HOSPITAL.
Lord Henry Pettyacquainted the house, that he had a message from his majesty to this house, and he presented the same to the house; and it was read by Mr. Speaker as followeth, viz. "George His majesty, having taken into his serious consideration the expediency of making more effectual provision for the support and maintenance of aged, disabled, and wounded seamen in his majesty's service, desires the assistance of

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his faithful commons towards attaining so important an object; and his majesty is pleased to declare, that for this important and benevolent object he is disposed to grant such part of the proceeds of all property to be hereafter condemned as prize, as to the wisdom of parliament shall seem expedient, to he applied for the benefit of the royal hospital for seamen at Green wich and to the funds of the chest at Greenwich, in such manner as shall be provided by act of parliament. G. R." Resolved, that this house will, to-morrow, resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to take the said message into consideration.

AUDITORS OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS BILL.
Lord Henry Pettyrose, in pursuance of the notice which he had formerly given, to submit to the house a plan for the More effectually Auditing of the public Accounts. The house would do him the justice to believe, that after the views which he had stated on a former occasion on this subject, and the sense which he entertained of the magnitude and pressing nature of the evil, no unnecessary delay had taken place bringing forward this plan, but that every moment had been employed in the investigation of the subject, and providing means for obviating every possible objection. He was glad, however, that he was enabled, notwithstanding the difficulties that stood in the way, to move for this bill before the conclusion of the present session of parliament. Without going over the grounds over which he had formerly travelled, or entering upon statements which had then appeared to convince the house of the necessity of doing something for the purpose of having this mass of accounts audited, he would content himself with laying before the house the basis of the plan which he had in view, and mentioning the amount of the accounts which remained unaudited, with respect to which he had now more full and correct information than he had when he had before occasion to address the house on this point. When this was considered it would be a proof, not, certainly, of the efficacy of the measure which he was about to propose, but undoubtedly of the necessity of doing something. He would afterwards shew that this method was the only one which was likely to be attended with the desired success. The amount of accounts unaudited was greater than he had before stated. The amount of account delivered in was above 52 mil-
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lions; the amount of accounts under examination was 169 millions; the amount of army accounts not delivered in was 209 millions; of navy accounts not delivered in 100,820,000l. Which added to 3 millions of unaudited accounts in another department, made a total of about 534 millions of money. That enormous amount of unaudited accounts, it was the object of the present administration, as far as in them lay, to endeavour to audit. He had before mentioned that a great step had before been taken for that purpose, to which an addition had been made last year, which was infinitely better calculated to answer the purpose in view, and which would form a considerable part of the institution that he was now about to submit to the house. He would now state the plan more distinctly. But first he ought to observe, that the two comptrollers of army accounts were to be separated from it entirely, a measure, the expediency of which had been already recognized. After this separation it was intended to consolidate the two existing boards, and to add four commissioners: one of these would be a chairman, with an increase or salary. It was attended that the application of these boards to any particular business relating to the accounts, as occasion might require, should be left in the hands of the treasury, which must be best able to judge how the business ought to be apportioned. At present, however, it was proposed that out of the ten commissioners 4 should be entrusted with the auditing of the current accounts, and these would form the first board. The second board would consist of 3 commissioners, and these would have the charge of those account which were now under examination. The third hoard would also consist of 3 commissioners, whose business it would be to bring up those accounts which were entirely in arrear, and not entered on at all. This was what at present appeared to be the most useful arrangement. At the same time it would he expedient to leave the power with the treasury to alter it as they should see occasion, because the treasury would have the best opportunity of observing how the different boards wrought, and what might be the most effectual mode of carrying speedily forward the great work which must be managed in some manner or other. Whatever errors therefore might occur, the treasury would be enabled to rectify them and to make up in some measure for any defects which might escape the notice of parliament in pass-

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ing the bill. As the establishment was by this plan undoubtedly considerably increased in the first instance, it was proposed to have the advantages of this increase with as little expence to the public, and with as little additional power to ministers as possible. With this view a provision would be introduced into the bill, by which in no instance in case of a vacancy by death could the loss be supplied till the number was reduced to five, without coming to parliament, and on such occasions the house would have an opportunity of dicussing the necessity for, or the expediency of, the several appointments, and of ascertaining how The work went on. This would afford employment to the ten commissioners till they were reduced to the permanent number, which was six. But in the event of the business getting on faster than was expected, a thing not very likely to occur, there was a provision by which the commons, by address to his majesty, might suppress any of the commissions. However, parliament would have the whole under its own eye. But the great provision respecting the current accounts was, that there should be a compulsion extending to all accountants, by winch they must send in their accounts from year to year. He had once some doubts whether this provision could be now introduced, but he had the satisfaction to find, upon examination, that it might be done, and accordingly tins provision was introduced into the bill. It was proposed, that within the space of three mouths from the 31st of December in each year, every accountant should send in an account of his receipts and expenditure for the year preceding, together with the vouchers connected with them; and it was moreover proposed that immediately upon these accounts being given in, an examination should forthwith be entered upon, and a comparison take place between the accounts and the vouchers, so that they should at least be so far examined at the time they were delivered. And also in those cases where officers must, from the necessity of circumstances, examine their accounts at different periods, it was proposed that the accounts should be given in there three months before that period, instead of the three months from the 31st of December, as in other instances. Another part of the bill, though a subordinate one certainly, was to enable the accountants to have their accounts attested wherever they should be, before any of the commissioners of the exchequer,
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which, as these were spread over the whole country, would be a very great convenience Anger part of the bill he considered as of great importance, and that was the provision by which all those public officers who authorised the expenditure of the public Money, should be charged with that expenditure, and made accountable for it. He mentioned the instance of a general officer who in the West Indies during the last war, had authorised the expenditure of 200,000l. By mere accident he had not a commissary with him. If there had been a commissary, as the commissary would expend and the officer would have the controul over him, neither of them could be charged with it. As it happened, however, the officer was responsible, and when that account came to be examined it was disallowed. It was therefore provided, that all who authorised the expenditure of money should be responsible; but at the same time an appeal was allowed them to the exchequer in case they felt themselves aggrieved. It was also provided that when accountants paid in any part of the funds which had been issued to them into the proper office, they should be considered as so far acquitted. There now remained only to state the authority which was to be committed to those commissioners. The nature of this authority was to remain as before, but to be extended over all persons who had the care of stores, &c. all which persons they should be empowered to call before them. In addition to this, it was proposed that the comptrollers of the army should have the power of calling all persons before them who were concerned in the military expenditure of the country, and their powers were to be placed exactly on time same footing as they were when the commission was first created in the reign of queen Anne. These comptrollers were to be the advisers of the treasury in all matters connected with the military expenditure, and in case any persons for whom they called should refuse to appear, which he was told was sometimes the case, they should have the power of imposing a fine on all such persons. There was one thing more which it was incumbent on him to state, and that was, that where time stores were embezzled, a valuation was to be made, and the persons who had the care of those stores were to be charged with the amount according to the valuation. He had now stated the principal particulars of the plan which it was proposed to carry into execu-

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ion, for the auditing of the public accounts. If any thing further could be suggested for this great object, it would be thankfully attended to. As to the importance of getting rid of this mass of accounts it was too obvious to require any comment. But as to the patronage that might thus he conferred on the treasury, that was a point which he wished to be thoroughly investigated, as an opinion seemed to be entertained by some that there was a design in this to augment the patronage of the treasury. All he could say at present was, that both his noble friend (Grenville), and he himself, were extremely anxious to avoid any thing that could have the tendency of giving patronage to the treasury, and if there could be any other mode by which the end proposed could be effectually answered, that mode would he gladly adopted. But What scheme could be proposed, that could be equally well calculated to attain the desired object, and yet keep free of the alledged objections, he could not at present possibly conceive. In addition to that he could safely say, that the utmost attention had been paid to the means of limiting that patronage as much as it could be done in consistency with the attainment of the object of the measure. He had stated how the commissioners were to he replaced till they were reduced to five in number; and as to inspectors, for some inspectors there must of necessity be, it was intended to select them entirely on account of their merits, and the selection would be made from the most meritorious commissaries on half-pay, by which means the whole amount of their half-pay would be saved to the public. The examiners would be taken from the clerks now belonging to the boards, and every thing wooed be done to render the measure as economical and efficacious as possible. With regard to a large class of accounts, he had been told that they were subject to no risk, and that they were only mentioned with a view to swell the list of the commissioners. That some of the accounts were of this description he was by no means disposed to deny; but still the labours must be gone through, and these accounts must he examined. But as to the point of risk, it sometimes happened that there was some risk, where, at first view, there appeared to be none. There were instances of this even in the bank account. He mentioned one instance, in which 700,000l. had been issued from the bank to one individual in the West Indies. He had been on a former occasion accused of ignorance on this head,
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and told that the account of Valentine Jones had no more to do with the bank than it had to do with the hackney-coach office, a comparison which the right hon. gent.'s (Mr. Rose) experience enabled him to make. He would state the particulars of that transaction, and leave the matter to the judgment of the house. In the year 1797 several bills had been drawn on the treasury, which applied to the bank to discharge those bills, and bills to the amount of 1,600,000l. were discharged, and when the subsequent loan was made the bank detained the amount. They presented their accounts to the auditors, the latter refused to allow the sum which had been drawn by Mr. Jones, which the bank had also withheld. In 1798 an ex post facto clause was introduced into the loan bill, sanctioning this conduct of the bank, empowering the auditors to admit the account, and making Mr. Valentine Jones insuper on the bank account. This sum, therefore, had something more to do with the bank account than it had to do with the hackney-coach office. He would not accuse the right hon. gent. of ignorance on this subject; he would only call it a sort of want or recollection. Undoubtedly however, he allowed, that with regard to the far greater part of the bank account there was no risk, and as to the paymaster, he allowed that the paymasters themselves were very honourable persons, yet the persons under them abroad, and in many places at home, might he of a very different description. But, however, he could not go on describing the different shades which might be pointed out on these topics. All that he wished to do was, to show, that great risk was, upon the whole, sustained from the unaudited state of the accounts. Besides this, he had no doubt that considerable sums might be recovered; and, at any rate, the example would be beneficial, and produce a considerable effect on all those who were entrusted with the public money. In this view the measure would be of immense utility. It had been said that the war office particularly required revision. In that he most perfectly agreed, and it was certainly extremely desirable that a new distribution and new regulations could be made in that office. But so many points had come under consideration, that he was not prepared with any measure respecting the war office at present. But this, however, would most certainly be speedily attended to; in the mean time the want of this would not take away from the value of the measure now proposed as far as it went. He pledged

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himself, however, in the ensuing session, to submit to the house a more efficacious plan for examining the accounts in the war office, for in the war office, after all that had been urged by the right hon. gent. he was convinced that they must be examined. He certainly regretted that he could not bring this plan forward at the present moment, but he would not be deterred from doing that which he could do, because he was unable to do that which he wished to do. Before he sat down he would mention a word or two on the expence of the proposed measure, which had nearly escaped him. By the arrangement now proposed, the ultimate and permanent expence to the country would be 1000l. a year less than it was at present. The present annual expence was 28,000l.; the future permanent annual expence, after the temporary expence had ceased, would be only 27,000l. The additional temporary annual expence would be 14,000l. making the whole of the proposed immediate annual expence 42,000l. The noble lord concluded by moving, "That leave be given to bring in a bill for consolidating the Boards of Commissioners for auditing the Public Accounts, and for providing more effectual means for examining and auditing the Public Accounts now in arrear."
Mr. Rosecalled the attention of the house to a number of detailed calculations, and contended, that out of the 534 millions only 5 millions, or at most 8 millions, were to be accounted for. The rest were, to all intents and purposes, accounted for as satisfactorily as was possible, though, perhaps, the whole had not passed the commissioners of accounts; and of this 8 millions, the only part upon which investigation could attach, with any hope of recovering a shilling for the public, was about 99,000l. So that the construction of all that expensive system of machinery proposed by the noble lord, of increasing commissioners, accountants, and all the other train of subordinate officers, was, in fact, doing nothing for the public. With respect to the accounts in the West Indies, an act passed in the last year for appointing new commissioners to follow up the enquiry in that quarter, from which commissioners no report had yet been made. In his opinion, therefore, it would have been much more adviseable for the noble lord to have waited for the report of those commissioners, and taken more time to consider and mature his plan, instead of precipitating the country into so much useless
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and unnecessary expence. Having concluded his observations upon the propositions of the noble lore, whose chief object seemed to be the censure of a former administration, and create unnecessary patronage, he: now beg leave to advert to some allusion made personally to himself, on a former night, by a noble lord opposite to him (lord Howick), and a right hon. and learned gent. (the attorney general), now in his eye. It had been observed that observations from him, tending to condemn the creation of sinecure places, came with a peculiar ill grace; and allusions were made to sinecure places and lucrative appointments which he was supposed to possess. On this point it was necessary to explain to the house the fallacy of such allusions. For the place he held under the administration of his late right hon. friend, as secretary of the treasury, he had resigned a certain, permanent, and lucrative employment producing him 5,400l. a year, arising from fees, to take up a precarious one, which reduced his income to 4,500l. a year; this income the lords of the treasury were afterwards pleased to reduce by a new regulation to 3000l. a year, and upon the former resignation of his right hon. friend, he resigned this without any provision whatever. On the return of his right hon. friend again to office, he accepted of another office, which he again resigned without any provision; and as to the employment which be now held, it was one which had been usually conferred in reversion for a series of five centuries, and was given to him on a similar footing, upon a reversion of two lives, one of which continued six years after he obtained the promise; and the Other was, at the time, of his own age, and a life in every respect as good, and as likely to last as his own. This grant was the only favour he ever asked for himself or any of his family, close as were the friendship and intimacy which had for above 17 years subsisted between himself and his late right hon. friend now no more; and he believed that he, in this instance, stood the single exception to all men who had ever preceded hint in office, under similar circumstances. The office of secretary of the treasury was after its first reduction, upon further consideration of the lords commissioners, raised to 4,000l. a year; and he was convinced that any man who considered the talents requisite to till the situation, and the laborious extent of duties it involved, would not consider this salary at all immoderate;

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but besides this, it placed the man who held it in such a situation, as that no gentleman filling the office, could save one shilling from the income. He had heard that rumours prevailed without doors respecting the immense emoluments amassed by him, but without deigning to take any notice of such assertions; when, however, such allusions were made within those walls, he felt it his duty to answer, and he trusted that he had now satisfactorily refuted them. When his right hon. friend had formerly retired from office, he believed it was fully in the recollection of the right hon. gent. now a noble lord (Sidmouth) who succeeded him, that he had been earnestly solicited to continue in office, but positively declined it; nor would he act under any other administration than that of his right hon. friend, while he lived; and he could now appeal to the noble lord at the head of the administration, whether he had not repeatedly pressed hint to appoint a successor in the department he filled; so far was he from feeling any solicitude to continue in office. The part he had taken in this house since the change of administration, was one which he thought became him. He had vindicated the conduct of his kite right hon. friend, and the administration in which he presided, from the censures so continually cast on them by the noble lord and his colleagues: and he could assure the noble lord, that, had it not been for those censures, he would have continued as silent a member since, as he had been before his departure front office.—Leave was then given to bring in the bill.

AFFAIRS OF INDIA—OUDE CHARGE.
Mr. Paullmoved the order of the day for a committee of the whole house on the Oude charge; when the house resolved into the committee, Mr. Hawthorne in the chair.—The first witness called was col. Baynes, who had been aid-de camp to general sir J. Craig. He was examined touching the state of the territories of the nabob Vizier, both before and after the treaty of cession, and as to the various military operations whilst he was in India. With respect to the disbanding the troops of the nabob, he had no opportunity of knowing, personally, whether that measure had been resorted to with the consent of the nabob, or executed without his concurrence.—Mr. H. Strachey was next called in. He had filled several situations, such as register, collector, and judge of appeals, and of a criminal court in India. The examination of this
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gentleman turned upon the general policy of the measures adopted with respect to Oude, and the relative situation of the nabob's provinces, and those of the company, as to disturbances at the time of the cession. On being asked by Mr. Paull his private opinion, as well as what he knew to be the opinion of the natives, with respect to the general policy and justice of the measures of marquis. Wellesley's government, both in and out of the company's provinces, he replied, that he had not turned his mind to the subject. An objection was made to the question, so far as it related to the private opinion of the witness, by lord H. Petty, and supported by Mr. G. Johnstone, and other members. Mr. Paull abandoned that part of the question, and the witness, who had been previously ordered to withdraw, on being again brought in, stated an answer to the latter part of the objection, that so far as he knew, some of the natives thought favourably and others unfavourably of the measures.—;It was then proposed that capt. Salmon should be called in, and a desultory conversation took place. Mr. Paull and Dr. Laurence contended, that as some of the accounts, with relation to which capt. Salmon was to be examined, had not been, thought ordered, yet presented to the house, his examination could not, in the present instance, lead to any practical or substantial effect; and that, as there was reason to expect these accounts would without delay be laid before the house, his examination ought to be deferred till the house should be able to judge what course the examination ought to take relative to these papers. Mr. Hurst, on the contrary, moved, that capt. Salmon should be called in, and was afterwards supported by Mr. Burton, Mr. Halford, Mr. G. Johnstone, and Sir A. Wellesley, on the ground that the evidence of this gentleman was important, with a view to confirm or disprove that part of the charge which accused marquis Wellesley of fabricating fraudulent accounts, with a view to oppress the nabob. They insisted that, as capt. Salmon had prepared the estimates to which this charge related, and filled the high and confidential situation of auditor of military accounts in India, his evidence was materially necessary to enable the committee to decide, whether the fraudulent intention imputed to the marquis Wellesley in this part of the charge, had really been entertained by him, and whether any instructions to that effect had been given by hint to capt. Salmon, with respect to the estimates

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to which the charge referred. After some further conversation, it was agreed that the witness should be called in. —Capt. Salmon was then called in and examined. The tendency of his evidence was, that the charges of the troops furnished to the nabob Vizir were made up in a manner favourable to his highness, and that it was the general instruction of lord Wellesley to make them up on principles rather favourable. He described the military administration of lord Wellesley to be highly economic, inasmuch as it was calculated to support the greatest possible number of men at the least possible expence. It was another question whether so large a force ought to be kept up.—Capt. Salmon's examination being closed, the chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again to-morrow.