Commons Sitting of 19 June 1806

IRISH ELECTION BILL.
Sir John Newportmoved the order of the day for a committee of the whole house on the Irish Election bill. On the question that the Speaker do leave the chair being put
Mr. Alexanderbegged to be informed by the right hon. baronet, whether he proposed to go into the committee pro forma, for the purpose of filling up the blanks, with a view to have the bill afterwards printed, and to allow sufficient time to gentlemen to consider its provisions before they should be called upon to decide upon its merits, or with a view to proceed bona fide with the bill.
Sir John Newportthough he had proposed to proceed with the bill, had no objection to go into the committee pro forma, and to allow any reasonable time for the consideration of the measure, but would not consent to any delay that would carry it beyond the present session.
Colonel Verekerthen rose, and spoke with great warmth of the rapidity with which the right hon. baronet had pressed the bill through the previous stages, while he had declined doing any thing in the present session for remedying those evils which existed in the paper circulation of Ireland. He had no idea of the contents of this bill till very lately, and its object appeared to be to strike a death-blow at every corporation in Ireland. It arose from the right hon. baronet's own experience in a late election. He would not impute sinister or improper motives to the right hon. bart.;

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but if the corporation he represented was adverse to his interest, that was no reason why the other corporations of the kingdom should be deprived of their right. He contended, that time should be given them to present petitions and protests against it, and, as that could not be done in the present session, he should move that it be postponed to the next session.
Sir J. Newportexplained the object of the bill. At present petitioners claiming the rights of freemen in corporations, presented their claims to the mayor, who was an annual officer; and it too often happened, from this and other causes, that their claims were neglected and mislaid for years, and that the freeman was deprived of his just rights, or forced to reclaim them at a great expence. The present bill provided that every claim should be delivered to the town clerk, who was to present it to the mayor within forty-eight hours; and that some decision should be passed upon it within one month after its presentment. It obliged the corporation to proceed to some decision, before they entered on any other election business. Should the claim be rejected by them, and afterwards brought into a court of justice, and decided in favour of the claimant, it provided that he should recover all those expenses which he had been put to in pursuing his just rights. This was the more necessary as individuals at present found it ruinous to cope with the weight of a corporation purse. He knew that in one instance 5000l. had been raised on the revenues, of a corporation, for supporting the law expences occasioned by these appeals. The present bill called upon the corporations, to do nothing but justice, and whatever allusions the honourable member might make to his motives, he trusted the house would do him the justice to believe, that in the exercise of his official duty, he was of actuated by any private or sinister views.
Mr. S. Bournethought the question to be considered was, whether a bill :which so much affected the rights of the electors, should be allowed to pass the house in the course of a few days, and before the people of Ireland had time to judge of it? He suggested to the right hon. bart. the propriety of filling up the blanks now, rather than ordering the bill to be printed; and afterwards to let it stand over to the next session of parliament.
Mr. Alexanderasserted, that in the corporation in Ireland with which he had the most connexion, he never heard of any
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instance of injustice; he only knew of a discretion which he thought properly vested in the corporations, to judge of the fitness of persons, according to the fairness of their characters.
Mr. Fostersaid, he hoped that op a question which affected so many of the franchise rights of Ireland, the right hon. bart. would not, in the absence of so many Irish members, press a bill now on the 19th, which was only brought in on the 14th of this month. It was a serious thing to impose a penalty of 1000l. on a returning officer, for omission or neglect; and 500l. penalty in him, if he was a revenue officer, and gave a casting vote. If the measure was now persisted in, he should oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair.
Mr. O'Harasaid, that if the gentlemen opposite wished the bill to be well understood by the corporations in Ireland, the best mode of doing it would be, to have the blanks first filled up in the committee, in which all the objections they proposed might be obviated.
Lord Templethought, that as the objections went merely to the clauses, it would be right to go into the committee, and after they were filled up, he understood that his right hon. friend would consent to defer the report for ten days, during which there would be time to collect the sense of the corporations in Ireland.
Sir John Newportsaid, he should consent to allow foureen days for consideration, after the blanks were filled up; but if he deferred it for twelve months, the consequence might be, that a number of electors stood a chance of being deprived of their franchises.
Colonel Bagwelldid not think a fortnight, by any means, sufficient to collect the sense of the corporations in the distant parts of Ireland.
Dr. Laurencesaid, that if any modification of the provisions was desirable, that would be done best in a committee.
Mr. S. Bournethought that as there were so many objections to the bill, he should vote against the Speaker's leaving the chair, unles it was agreed that the blanks should be filled up in the committee, and the further consideration of the measure deferred till the next session. That house, he thought, should be careful, and particularly in the absence of so many Irish members, how it interfered in the elective franchises of Ireland, and of Ireland only. Were it even early in the session, he thought 14 days would be insufficient for the considera-

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tion of a measure, which involved the elective franchise of the whole of Ireland.—The house then divided on the question for the Speaker's leaving the chair, when there appeared for it 27; Against it 26; Majority 1.—The house then resolved itself into a committee on the bill, Mr. Hobhouse in the chair.
Mr. Alexanderstated his objections to a measure which affected the rights of all the corporations of Ireland, comprising not less than 300,000 electors. He was called to order by
Dr. Laurencewho thought it irregular that he should take that opportunity or entering on the general merits of the bill.
Mr. Alexanderwas again proceeding, when he was interrupted by
Lord Templewho observed, that it was then on the stroke of five o'clock, and that an understanding had last night prevailed, that no other subject should be discussed, till the examination of witnesses on the Charges against the Marquis Wellesley was concluded, and therefore moved 'that the chairman should report progress, and have leave to sit again.'
The Speakersaid, there was an understanding that all other business should give way to the examination of witnesses.
Colonel Verekerconsidered this interposition as the exercise of ministerial influence.
M. Fosterremarked, that it was irregular in the noble earl, to take advantage of his speaking to oreder, for the purpose of making a motion; the noble earl rose either in order or disorder. The house was pressed by the right hon. bart. into this committee, and the clock had not since moved so rapidly, but he might have foreseen 5 o'clock would arrive before the discussion could be over.
Mr. S. Bourneexpressed his surprise, that the advocates of this bill should propose and press a measure at the same moment, or within a few moments of the time, when they were obliged to propose that progress should be reported, and the chairman have leave to sit again.
Lord Templesaid, that the would not appeal to the hon. gent. but tot the committee at large, whether the understanding was not last night, that the examination of witnesses in lord Wellesley's case, should precede every other discussion? His motion, therefore, was not liable to the invidious remarks made on the other side.—The house then divided on the chairman's reporting progress, when the numbers were, for it, 39: against
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it, 27; Majority 12.—The chairman then obtained leave to sit again on Monday.

AFFAIRS OF INDIA.—OUDE CHARGE.
Mr. Paultmoved the order of the day, for the house resolving itself into a committee, to take into consideration the Oude charge.
Sir A. Wellesleyasked what time the hon. gent. thought the further examination of evidence would occupy?
Mr. Paulreplied, that he expected to close his examination of sir Alured Clarke, major Ouseley, and Mr. Johnstone that night: but he proposed postponing the further evidence till Monday, on account of the absence of some important documents which were not yet before the house.—The house then resolved itself into a committee, lord A. Hamilton in the chair.
Mr. Paullexpressed a wish, that Mr. Johnstone, as being a member of the house, should be first examined.
Mr. Johnstonefelt himself placed in rather an aukward situation by being called on as a witness. He had wished to deliver his opinion on the charge as a member of the house, and probably his being called on to give evidence might preclude him from delivering his sentiments.
Mr. Paullconceived it absolutely necessary to establish his charge, that the hon. gent. should be examined.
Mr. Johnstonewas then examined in his place, for four hours, the tendency of the examination was to shew the state of the revenue and military force of Oude, the moral habits of the nabob Asoph UI Doulah, and the general instructions given to the British residents at the court of Lucknow.
Sir Alured Clarkewas then called to the bar, and examined for a considerable time. On a question being put to him by Mr. Paull, whether he would consider the payment of 500,000l. by the Nabob to the East India Company, above the 70 crore of rupees stipulated in the treaty of 1798, an infraction of that treaty, Sir Alured was ordered to withdraw, and a long discussion ensued.—The question was strenuously opposed by Mr. Wallace, Mr. S. Bourne, Mr. Huskisson, sir A. Wellesley, and other members, upon the ground that as the treaty itself was on the table, the committee could form its own decision upon the subject, and ought not to receive evidence of opinion from any witness. Mr. Paull contended that he was grounded in this question upon the undisputed admission of the house the preceding night. This produced a debate of considerable length, when the

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committee divided; for the question 16; Against it 46;—Majority 30.
Mr. Paullstated that the next question he had to put, was also a question as to opinion, namely, whether it the Bengal army had been marched to the frontier of Oude, with a view to repel the enemy, then marching to attack that territory, the witness thought it would be fair or just, and not contrary to treaty, that the nabob vizier? but as the committee had decided that night contrary to its own practice the further proceeding, in order to re-consider and new-shape the questions he had still to ask, and to give an opportunity for the attendance of other members.
Earl Templeopposed the adjournment, and thought the speech of the hon. gent. most unparliamentary, when he proposed to take the sense of the committee to-morrow on a question which had been already decided. The noble lord then made some remarks on the propriety of taking the opinion of witness in the manner proposed, which mode of proceeding he deprecated.
Mr. Hutchinsonwas decidedly of opinion that the hon. member had sufficient ground for moving the adjournment. The question of opinion had been fully debated on the examination of lord Teignmouth, the result of which was, that questions of opinion may be put to the witness at the bar. This having been the decision of last night, he was really surprised to hear the point revived in 24 hour afterwards, with a view of departing from what appeared to have been established as the practice for future proceedings in this case.
Mr. Foxconcurred with the hon gent. that the departure from the practice of parliament sanctioned last night, was a sufficient ground for authorising the hon. member to move an adjournment. It was gravely and solemnly debated last night, whether questions of opinion should or should not be put to witness examined at the bar respecting this impeachment? Although several members had spoken in the negative, yet, on the whole, the house had certainly acquiesced in the affirmative, without dividing, or coming to any specific resolution. On this ground, and from a regard to the consistency of the house, he certainly thought the motion for adjournment well founded. After some conversation, both sides of the house came to an understanding, that the question of opinion be put. In con-
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sequence of which, sir Alured Clarke was called in, and finally examined.
Sir Arthur Wellesleysaid, that in order to the defence of his noble relation against one of the principal charges of profusion and extravagance, it would be materially important to have the testimony of a gentleman, named Salmon, who had been the military auditor at Bengal, and who had formed the estimates upon which the sums in allusion were expended. He therefore called upon the hon. gent. who brought forward those charges, to move that Mr. Salmon be summoned to attend the committee.
Mr. Paullthought it every extraordinary, that the hon gentleman should dictate to him what witness he should bring forward in support of his charges, which he had no doubt of being able to substantiate.
Sir A. Wellesleysaid, he hoped when the committee should decide upon this part of the case, it would be recollected that the hon. gent. summon a most competent witness.
Colonel Woodsaid, if the hon. member refused to comply with claim so fair, the house had the power, and he hoped would, for its own satisfaction, summon Mr.Salmon.—The chairman at length left the chair, and obtained leave to sit again to-morrow. Ordered, upon the motion of colonel Wood, that Mr. Salmon be summoned to attend the committee.