Commons Sitting of 21 July 1806

MINUTES.
On the motion of Mr. Creevy,new writs were ordered for the election of a member for Seaford, in the room of sir Richard Sullivan, deceased; for Buckingham, in the room of lord Proby, who had accepted the office of Steward of the Cil ern Hundreds; and for Enniskillen, in the room of Mr. King, who had accepted the Stewardship of the Hundred of Desborough.—Mr. Perceval adverted to a notice, which he had given some time since, of a motion on the subject of thanks to the managers of Impeachments. The vote of thanks before the judgment was given, in the case of lord Melville, struck him as extremely improper. He was still of the same opinion, and he wished by no means to be considered as having abandoned his determination to submit to the house a resolution for preventing the recurrence of such a practice. His only reason for not having already brought forward this resolution was, that he wished it to be unconnected with the consideration of any particular impeachment; and if he had brought it forward so soon after the impeachment of lord Melville, it would appear to be connected with that. He renewed his notice for the next session.—Mr. Sheridan said it would be recollected, that the notice he had on a former day given of a motion relative to the crown lands, with a view to the improvement of the capital, was conditional. On communicating with his majesty's ministers, he found that the noble lord at the he d of the treasury, and another noble lord now absent (lord H. Petty), had turned their attention to the object he had in view, and had a plan which was apparently well calculated to effect it He therefore begged to withdraw his notice, and to give way to persons by whom his wishes could be best accomplished.

BARRACK ABUSES.
Mr. Robsonrose pursuant to notice, to make a motion for papers on this subiect. Since the debate, said the hon. gent. which took place lately upon India affairs, could not bring down ministers to the house, it was in vain to expect their attendance upon the present occasion. Although his majesty's ministers, however, did not think proper to come to their places, he should think it no less his duty to speak plainly of them. He had upon all former occasions submitted plain and simple motions to the consideration of the house, which if they had chosen to agree to, they. would have been by this

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time in possession of the means of saving several hundreds of thousands of pounds of the public money. From the unaccountable conduct of the present ministers,his motions had hitherto been rejected, although he had been told by the secretary at war the other day, that if he had divided the house upon his third motion upon this subject, it would have been agreed to. Was this all the support which ministers thought it their duty to afford to the discovery and detection of abuses? He should still assert, that the motions which he had brought forward the other day were such as would have termed a key to discover all those abuses which he was convinced existed in the barrack department. The right hon. secretary at war had indeed placed him in a very unpleasant predicament on Friday last. He had previously been told that he ought to wait till the report of the Commissioners was presented. Although he was generally very punctual in his attendance in the house, yet it so happened that on Friday last it was 20 minutes past 4 when he entered, and on his way he met the clerk coming out with the report which had been presented and ordered to be printed. He had followed him up stairs in order to inspect it, but returned in consequence of learning that the secretary at war intended to move for and present some papers. Finding a deliberate perusal of the report absolutely necessary for his purpose, he applied to the house to have the printing postponed to some future period; this, however, could not be complied with, so that he was now placed in such a situation that he could not be able to lay that plan upon the table which he originally wished, and which he had pledged himself to do. He should still however assert, that with the produce arising from a saving upon the canteens and manure, he would engage to pay the whole expence of all the temporary barracks in England. He should now call upon the chancellor of the exchequer and the secretary at war to assign to him some reason why they did not consent to all his former motions, and support him to their utmost in his endeavours to provoke inquiry. He should warn these gentlemen, that if in the space of 6 months hence matters remained as they now were, a great share of responsibility would fall upon them for their unpardonable neglect. The secretary at war had, upon the day alluded to, presented some papers, stating the rents of canteens,&c. but these did not answer his (Mr. Robson's) purpose. He therein found only a
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bare statement of the sum received by the late Barrack Master General, but he neither found the particulars of expenditure, the period when payments were made, nor the time comprehended in the whole of such statement. He considered it therefore, as no account at all. Was it merely for the purpose of appearing consistent in their votes, that the house had granted such a document? The right hon. secretary must surely perceive that he had been only moving for a thing in an imperfect state, which had been formerly moved for in a perfect one. In short, this paper by no means came near what he wished the house to be possessed of. What he wanted was a distinct and accurate statement of the canteens employed, and the produce of manure in each county. It should be a monthly statement, or such as every Barrack Master was bound to send weekly. For this purpose he begged leave to renew the motion he had formerly submitted to the consideration of the house upon this subject, which had been formerly rejected.—After some little debate as to the point of order, the motion Was made in nearly the following terms. "That there be laid before this house, an account of money received, on the part of government, for dung, ashes, dust, straw, Sweepings, or other things being articles of manure; the name or names of the persons to whom sold; the sum or sums received; the name or names of the persons through whose hands the said sums have been received, on the part of the public; the time when such sale ceased; if so, stating the cause of cessation; the number of non-commissioned officers and men, and the number of horses generally quartered or lodged at each station respectively," &c.
The Secretary at Warsaid, he did not object to the motion, nor had he objected to any motion tile hon. gent. had brought forward. At the same time, he thought it necessary to say, that the making out these accounts would be attended with great inconvenience, and a very heavy expence; for many additional clerks must be employed for the purpose; and it was for the house to consider whether they would authorise such an expence, after the hon. gent. had talked of throwing up the business, and it was not certain whether he was sincere in his intention to proceed with the inquiry. If his noble friend near him (lord H. Petty) had not taken the course had done, he should himself have objected to the motions altogether, but now he certainly should not.
Mr. Robsonsaid, he was aware that granting motions for papers was attended with some expence, but all he had hitherto moved for, were comprised in two sheets and a half, and therefore he could not be much reproached on that head at present. He assured the house, and the right hon. secretary, he was sincere in his intention to proceed into the inquiry, and would be ready to begin to-morrow, for the more he looked into it, the more he saw it was an absolute refinement on peculation, and could not be stopped too speedily; and he wished only that he had one of those peculators before an honest jury. The report of the military board he looked upon as a hash, seasoned up with the account of the one per cent. charged by General Delancey, by way of shewing they had noticed something at the outset; but they had begun at the wrong end. Instead of going back 13 years, so far as the year 1793, they should have begun with the present abuses. It they had begun right, a report would now have been before the house, by which half a million might have been saved; and he was determined, the system of plunder which had been so long carried on, should not continue. Every hour that was lost, was an injustice, and an injury to the public. He warned the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whom he now saw in his place, against neglecting to go into an immediate and bon fide inquiry, observing, that if he did so, he would have to answer to him in the next session for loss of half a million of the public money. He had heard much of the talents of this broad bottomed administration. He wished to God he could persuade them to give up some of their enormous pensions and sinecure places, and thus bring their talents of gold and their talents of silver into the service of the public. Let them do this, and then he would allow them to talk of their sincerity. If ministers neglected enquiry, he would tell them, they had not a leg to stand on. They might, perhaps, go on for a year or two, but it was impossible they should last longer. If economy was not the order of the day, how long did ministers think that the country could go on? Would not extravagance force the people to accept an insecure peace, which they did not wish for at present? What the public wanted was economy, and a strict inquiry into the public expenditure; and covered as they were with taxes, how was it possible for them to have an opinion of that administration that did not follow up inquiry?
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Admiral Markham had declared that two thirds of the money granted by parliament would pay all the expences of the navy, and yet as much as ever was taken this year. This was absolutely a laughing at the people. How long, he would ask, were these things to last?
Mr. Robsonnext moved: "That there be laid before the house, a return of the sales which have taken place at the several, temporary barracks or buildings, rented or hired by government, and used as barracks, or as barrack storehouses, in the whole of G. Britain. That the said return do embrace all such sales of the description aforesaid, that have been made between the 1st of Jan. 1793, and the 24th June, 1806; and that it be exhibited in nine columns in the order, and with the titles following. Viz—. The name of the parish (or station) and the county where each sale respectively was made; the said names of the parishes (or stations) following each other in due alphabetical order. 2. The date of the sale. 3. The name of the auctioneer, or person by whom the sale was made, and if the sale was a private one, stating that circumstance. 4. The names of the purchasers, if less than six in number. 5. A general description of the things sold. 6. The name of the barrack master, or other person, under whose immediate direction and superintendance the sale took place. 7. The gross amount of the sale, as credited to government. 8. The total amount of all sums expended by government in fitting up each building respectively. 9. The number of men or horses usually quartered in each building respectively."
Mr. Secretary Windhamobserved, that ministers were placed in a disagreeable situation by the hon. gent.'s motions, since he seemed to consider persons who might on any account object to them as wishing to protect abuses and peculations. But it must be from the most gratuitous love of abuse, if ministers could object to the discovery of abuses which took place under their predecessors. In this observation, however, he could not include himself, for the present motion had some reference to him in an antecedent state. Here he. could not but remark the inconsistency of the hon. gent. He had complained that all the work of the commissioners of enquiry had beep retrospective, and had considered that as a most absurd way of proceeding,. while he wanted to provide against present

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and future abuses. He had also dwelt on the expence of the Barrack Department; and yet, notwithstanding all this, he now proposed to go into a detail of all that had happened for the last 13 years, which must necessarily be attended with great expence, and would require the employment of additional clerks. Now, the proper question was, would the motion, if agreed to, produce any thing adequate to the expence and inconvenience it would occasion? All the items of an auctioneer's paper, pots, pans, kettles, trenchers, and wooden bowls, Were to be made up and laid before. the house, and many other things of which it was probable no record or vestige now remained. The hon. gent. brought forth his motions as a sort of nostrum or recipe, which was to cure existing abuses all at once: and, indeed, if he could produce some little scheme of accounts of that kind, he would do great service to the country. He had taken a very wide compass, and laid a broad basis; but his objections to his motions arose from their probable inefficiency, and he would not be terrified from opposing the present, by the reproach of a wish to screen peculators. But he believed it would be a warning to the house to be cautious in assenting, not to,judicious and necessary motions, hut to such as. would be tedious, troublesome, and expensive, without producing any adequate advantage.
Mr. T. Jonessaid, he had no wish to give any opposition or annoyance to his majesty's ministers. He had every wish to respect their talents, to give them credit for the best intentions, and to be convinced it was by no means their wish knowingly to countenance or to screen wanton extravagance or peculation : but really and truly, the system of peculation of late years, in the department alluded to by his hon. friend (Mr. Robson) was so glaring, so horrid, and abominable, that he must say his hon. friend was justified in pressing his motion, with a view to establish some effectual and permanent check upon this glaring system of flagitious peculation. His majesty's present ministers had succeeded to power with the wishes and the warm approbation of the people, and certainly had shewn every disposition to follow up enquiry into public abuses, and to render the public force formidable for the defence of the country against a ferocious enemy: but he could assure those ministers, with every deference for their talents, that, without economy in the expenditure of the public money, with-
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out the most rigorous vigilance in the disbursement of every pound for the public service, it would be in vain that they possessed. talents; it would be in vain that they rendered formidable their armies or their fleets, with a view to our permanent safety. Economy in public, and in private life, under the peculiar circumstances to which this country was now reduced, he considered as the cardinal virtue upon which turned all our hopes of ultimately surmounting the dangers and embarrasments in which we were involved: it was to our want of this, that our ferocious enemy looked with eager hopes of his ultimate success in subduing us, more than to any opinion of our want of a formidable force, and a military spirit of resistance. But, from the nature of some expenditures of late, it would seem as if his majesty's ministers had believed that a guinea was really worth more than twenty-one shillings: however, he could assure them, nothing but the most strict economy and vigilance of the public expenditure would do. He thought it odd, that when a proposition was made with a view to investigate defalcations and peculations in another department, which was a perfect mine of peculation, it should be resisted on the ground that it would cause an extra expence in clerks, pens, ink, and paper. The objection to the expence of these accounts, he thought came with a bad grace from the ministers so soon after the Auditors bill which entailed great expences on the public, for little more than nominal appointments. He wished to see the system of economy general. It was equally advantageous in public as in private concerns. Give us, said he, but economy, and a fig for Buonaparte!
Sir William Elford,with every respect for the hon. member, observed, that if he had been the first to discover the peculation of which he now complained, and had come down to the house and founded upon his discovery a motion of enquiry, undoubtedly he would have deserved much popularity for his exertion. But, as this was not the case, as the house had already taken up the subject under the general head of military expenditures, and as the commissioners appointed by the house had been actually for a year past occupied in the investigation, the hon. gent. in every endeavour to add to his own popularity on this head, sought to detract from the merit of the commissioners, and of the house, by whom they were instituted, as well as very

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considerably and unnecessarily to increase that expenditure of public money for which he professed so much of vigilant concern.
Mr. Robsoncontended, that the same abuses were still going on in the same manner as before, and as it seemed the commissioners could not conclude their inquiries for three or four years, he would ask, was he, as a member of parliament, to sit still all that time, and not attempt to check them? There should be in the Barrack Office, a regular account of the sale of all the articles, the names of the items and the amount of what they respectively sold for; and it did not appear that commissioners had called for it. There was a clause in the act, that the. commissioners need not, unless they saw reason for it, inquire into any former abuses which did not still subsist, and thus the abuses escaped under this masking, clause. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) had talked to him of nostrums; all the nostrums he wanted, was to probe peculation to the quick, and to apply to it such a remedy as should cure it for the future. All he wished for was inquiry; but he found by the papers already presented, that the repetition of dittos, in. many places were substituted for descriptions, as if there was a scarcity of pens, ink, and paper, in the office.
Lord H. Pettysaid, he had hitherto been extremely unwilling to resist any of the motions made by the hon. gent. for the papers he required on this subject, or to withhold any information which the hon, gent. or the house think necessary; but really the document for which he now moved was of a nature so very complicated and impracticable, on a range of 13 years, as well as utterly useless towards the professed and leading object of the hon. gent. that he was inclined to oppose this motion, seeing it to be of no practical use. If the hon. gent. had any objection to the mode of inquiry by commissioners, already adopted by the house, and before whom the subject of Barracks was laid, as well as all other branches of the military expenditure, he ought to have come down to the house, and moved for a repeal of the bill under which those commissioners were appointed, in order to substitute any other plan of inquiry he should think more eligible. For his own part, he should in future e more averse to the granting of such general and expensive motions.
Mr. T. Jonessaid, that he had had the honour of seconding the motion of his hon.
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friend (Mr. Robson) relative to the 19l. 10s: bill unpaid by government. That motion, which was then refused by ministers, had done great good: it had given rise to the commission of naval enquiry, and this motion which he now had the honour of seconding, and which too was by ministers, he would venture to say, would also be attended with great benefit to the public.—The question was then put and the motion agreed to.