Commons Sitting of 25 February 1806

MINUTES.
A petition was presented from the debtors confined in the jail of Nottingham, which was ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Grey, sir A. Piggott, and Mr. H. Addington, and sir C. Pole took the oaths and their seats.—Mr. Eyre presented a petition from the maltsters of Nottingham, complaining of the, additional duties imposed upon malt by the act of the 42d of his present majesty. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Johnson from the office of the chief secretary for Ireland, presented at the bar an account of the number of non-resident clergymen, &c. in the dioceses of Ossory and Kilmore. Ordered to lie on the table.—Dr. Duigenan brought in a bill for enforcing the residence of the clergy in Ireland, which was read a first time.—The secretary at war gave notice, that he would on Thursday submit a motion for leave to bring in a bill to indemnify those who had advised his majesty to permit the landing of a certain number of foreign troops its this country. This measure, the right hon. gent. added, was conceived to be the more necessary in consequence of the amount of the German legion, which had been recently so very much recruited on the continent.—Lord Henry Petty moved, "that a committee be appointed to examine and report the amount of the joint charge on the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, between the 1st of Jan. 1801 and the 1st of Jan. 1806, what proportion thereof has been defrayed by Great Britain and Ireland respectively, and what balance remains due from either part of the united kingdom to the other, according to the provisions of the act of the 39th and 40th year of his present majesty, for the union of Great Britain and Ireland; and likewise to consider of and report the best means of ascertaining in future the amount of such balance as may be due from Great

187
Britain or Ireland, respectively, at the expiration of each year." Ordered.

AFFAIRS OF INDIA.
Mr. Francis roseand spoke as follows:—Mr. Speaker; I rise, pursuant to notice, to move for the production of a document, which is at once of considerable importance and curiosity; but, as it relates to a subject which appears not to deserve much interest in this house or in the country, it may not excite adequate attention. I well know, by long experience, that India and every question connected with it, has no attraction for parliament or for the public; and that now, as well as on all former occasions; I shall still have to contend with the impatience and disgust of a careless unwilling audience. This alone makes the task too heavy for me, and is more than ought to be imposed on any individual, who has laboured for two-and-twenty years to execute a most invidious as well as important service, without reward, or assistance, or even encouragement from any body. It is not possible for the house to believe, that I can have any satisfaction in such a labour, except from the sense of performing a great and urgent duty, the execution of which, in fact, has been a principal bar to all my views in life as well as a perpetual interruption to my quiet and happiness. So far from having a pleasure in the dry discussion of such subjects, if it were possible for me to command a vote of this house, the first resolution they should pass should be to close my lips, and silence me for ever, on India affairs. The task I have undertaken, and so long pursued, is difficult, is unpleasing to those most interested in it, and, as yet, productive of no benefit to the country; still I will go on.—I will not solicit; but I will advise the house, as they value the interests of India, not to discourage the few, who may yet be disposed to investigate that subject, nor to damp their pursuit by a languid, reluctant attention; by, in fact, slighting their zeal. India is every day becoming more formidable to this country, and every thing that relates to our possessions in that quarter imperiously claims the attention of parliament. The question, which I have now to submit to the consideration of the house, does not refer to war or peace, or to any topic of Indian policy. It is merely a point respecting finance; and perhaps will not be a bad preface to the motion of which an hon. gent. on the bench behind me (Mr. Paull) has given notice for this day. Mo-
188
tions of this nature I conceive to be particularly necessary, in consequence of the irregular manner in which the accounts respecting India have been laid before the house, or rather by the neglect for some time to make any official communication what ever from that quarter. No Indian budget, you will recollect, was produced in the last sessions, and the noble lord (Castlereagh) who then presided over the board of controul accounted for that singular omission (nothing similar to which, as I believe, had ever occurred before, since the board of controul was instituted) in this singular way; viz. that the necessary accounts had not arrived from India. This was certainly strange: and I recommend it to the particular attention of his majesty's present ministers. Since the end of March 1803, no statement has been laid before parliament, of the situation of the finances of India. If I were to ask the reason why the necessary and usual accounts were not produced in due time to enable the minister for India to bring forward the India budget for last year, it would not surely be answered, that these accounts were not sent from India in due time; for, any such delay unaccounted for would involve the direct breach of an act of parliament. But if it were said that the dispatches were intercepted; that the ship which carried them was captured, and that thus our financial accounts fell into the hands of the enemy; then another question would arise. It is notorious, that every captain entrusted with the conveyance of public dispatches, receives written official instructions from the secretary's office at each presidency to keep the public dispatches entrusted to him, in a state of preparation; that is, ready slung and loaded with weights to be instantly thrown into the sea from the stern gallery, at any moment when he should see that the capture of his ship by an enemy was unavoidable.—Why were these orders not obeyed? How came those most important dispatches from India, as well as outward bound, which were published at Paris, to fall into the hands of the French? How did it happen that our government for many successive months knew nothing of their contents, nor indeed of the state of India, but through the medium of the French newspapers, retranslated into ours?—Have the directors made any effective enquiry into the causes and circumstances of this most unfortunate event? I call it unfor-

189
tunate only, until I know that it was owing to some negligence, which of itself would be criminal, without supposing a worse motive.—The subject of the motion, which I am now about to make, is not, or rather ought not to be, new to this house. I have mentioned it repeatedly, but without success, or being able to obtain the least explanation concerning it. And how should it be otherwise, when, as the noble lord well knows, his interest, which was considerable, and mine put together, could never obtain an audience of more than fifteen or twenty members to his India budgets; and that, towards the close of those debates, we were generally left to ourselves, with the chairman of the committee.—This supineness on the subject of India, has already produced the worst consequences as to India; and if another course be not adopted, I am sure will be the cause of serious distress, to this country. On the 21st of Jan. 1805, (see vol. iii. p. 50.) I stated to the house, that a sum of money equal to 352,000 l. had been lately charged in the disbursements of the presidency of Bombay, with no other explanation than these Words: "Lent to the Guicowar."—The house ought to know two things;—that the several presidencies in India are generally in distress for money, and constantly employed to raise it by every possible expedient; and that Bombay is the poorest and the most distressed of them all. In these Circumstances, they profess to have lent an enormous sum of the company's money to this their tributary prince. To save the time of the house, I beg leave to read, what I before said, and which has been some time an print on this subject, as a part of my speech: "In the country of Guzzerat, to the north-west of Bombay, there is, a Prince called Guicowar; a part of his territory has been ceded to the company, partly to make good the pay of our subsidiary force stationed at Poona, and for other objects of indemnification. Out of that fund we ought to have received a considerable revenue; but to that prince the government of Bombay have lent a sum not much less than 360,000 l. The documents relative to this extraordinary transaction, I think, ought to have been laid before the house, under the orders already given; which would save time and trouble; if not, it must be the subject of a particular motion." I think it is natural
190
to ask on what ground, and .for what reason, this loan was made. In the printed papers, I cannot find any thing to throw a ray of light on the subject. The company take possession of the territory of Guicowar, they hold it in his name, and the first thing done is to lend him 352,000 l. Why, on the very face of the transaction there is something which calls for explanation. The words of the official dispatch from Bombay relative to this prince and territory, were these— "This state has for its present native ruler a chieftain of avowedly weak intellects. Our support therefore must be extended to all the operations of its government; holding as we do, the immediate charge of the Guicowar chieftain's own guard, and dividing with his troops the garrison of his capital."—Does any man believe that the Guicowar ever received a shilling of this loan? If there be really such a man, I shall only say, that that man knows nothing of the politics of India.—The hon. gent. concluded with moving, that there he laid before the house "extracts of any letters or accounts received from the presidency of Bombay, relative to the sum of Bombay rupees, 31,25,944, inserted in the account of their disbursements for the year ending the 30th April, 1803, and said to be money lent to Guicowar."
Mr. Hiley Addingtonsaid, that had he been a member of the house yesterday when the notice of this motion was given, he would have taken the liberty of asking the hon. gent. to postpone bringing it forward, until the board to which he had the honour to belong should have an opportunity of considering the subject, and of enquiring into the nature of the papers connected with it. This indulgence he hoped the hon. mover would not be disinclined to grant to a board so recently appointed. The application would not, he trusted, be deemed unreasonable, when the nature of the business connected with their office was taken into view; when it was considered that it might be necessary to look over a number of papers which the noble lord on the other side (lord Castlereagh) knew to be pretty voluminous, before an opinion could be formed, whether it would be consistent with the public interest to accede to the object of this motion. As the grant of this paper Was not so very pressing in its nature, he hoped the hon. gent. Would have no objections ,to post-

191

pone it for a day or two; and be assured the hon. gent. that, in the mean time, the subject to which his motion referred should be carefully enquired into.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he was as ready as any man to acknowledge the debt of gratitude which parliament and the country owed to the hon. mover, for the zeal and assiduity which he had uniformly manifested upon the important subject of our interests in India; and he perfectly concurred with that hon. gent. that it was essentially necessary the house should apply itself to the attentive consideration of those great interests. But, in order to enter into that consideration, every part of the subject should be laid before the house. The whole of the question should be completely understood. With respect to the assertion, that the India budget not having been brought forward last sessions was an unprecedented omission, be begged leave to set the hon. gent. right; for precisely the same omission occurred the first year be was president of the board of controul. But as to the cause of the last omission, of which the hon. gent. had complained, it was known to have proceeded from the delay of the accounts from India, which were indispensably necessary to the preparation of the budget; and the same cause occasioned the omission which took place before he entered into office. As to the motion before the house, he saw no objection to the production of the paper referred to; but it was for the right hon. gent. (Mr. H. Addington) and his colleagues to exercise their own discretion. When that paper should be laid before the house, and the transaction to which it alluded should be fully understood, the impression on his mind was, that the hon. mover would find the loan not to have been improvidently advanced; that it was not money lent without a just motive, or without ample security; but, on the contrary, that land was assigned to the company to ensure the repayment of this loan, and that that land was placed under the company's own administration. On the whole, the noble lord had no doubt it would appear, that the advance to this prince was a proceeding which stood upon the best principles of policy, that it was perfectly justifiable, and that no loss whatever was .likely to accrue from it. To the hon. mover's allusion, in the style of complaint, to the absence of the directors on this discussion, he should only say, that being
192
this day engaged in attendance at a general court, which, as to-morrow was a holiday, no doubt presented an increase of business, their absence from the house was at least excusable.
Lord Morpethjoined in the request of his right hon. colleague (Mr. H. Addington), that the hon. mover would defer his motion for a few days.
Mr. Francissaid, he had no thought whatever of attaching blame to, or occasioning any inconvenience to those who now directed the board of controul. He brought forward this motion before the house, in compliance with a notice which he had given so early as the last sessions, With the request made to him by the noble lord who had last spoken and his right hon. colleague, he had no difficulty in complying; but he wished to learn, when the noble lord would be able to ascertain the propriety of acceding to the motion, which he had felt it his duty to bring forward. He also would he glad to hear when the India budget, which was omitted last year, was likely to be brought forward.
Lord Morpethassured the hon. gent. that no time would be lost in enquiring into the subject to which his motion referred, With regard to the India budget, he stated it to be his intention, on the next meeting of the house, to move for the production of the accounts necessary to the bringing forward the budget of last year. How long these accounts might be preparing he could not pretend to say.
Mr. Charles Grantsaid, he had not been in the house when the motion was made. He regretted that the attendance on his duty in another place, deprived him of the advantage of hearing the observations of the hon gent. who introduced it. By all the information he could collect on the subject, he thought that there would be no objection to comply with it. He was sure it was the wish of the court of directors, that every information in their power should be given. At the same time, he felt it an important consideration, to ascertain how far it might be consistent with the general interests of the company to have their accounts called for on every occasion.—Mr. Francis then, with the permission of the house, withdrew his motion.

Affairs of India.
Mr. Paullrose and spoke as follows:— Sir, in 1783, India could not be mentioned without filling the benches of both sides of the house;

193
but I believe almost the last time lord Melville addressed this house on the affairs of India, he congratulated himself (in 1800) that circumstances were so changed, and the public opinion and that of the house so favourable, that to its most important affairs he could hardly bring down sufficient members to form a house. On such confidence and change of circumstances he congratulated the country. In such congratulation, I, sir, cannot possibly join; for to such confidence, and to the system pursued for 23 years past, I attribute the growth of an enemy more formidable to the happiness and prosperity of England, than the flotilla that menaces our shores from the coast of France. Sensible of the danger which few seem to be aware of, in the first week of the present session, I gave notice of my intention to bring before the house a subject which, whether considered in a political, in a commercial, or in a financial point of view, was second to none that could occupy the attention of parliament; and, as a ground for future procedure, I moved for a letter from lord Melville to the chairman of the court of directors, which has tot yet been laid before the house. With the death of that truly great, illustrious, and ever-to-be-lamented character, the marquis Cornwallis, I believed, and still believe, the sun of Great Britain set in India; that with him perished the last hopes of the country, for rendering India an aid instead of a burthen to the mother country: at all events, his death stimulated me still more strongly to persevere in the line of conduct I had imposed upon myself; and, feeling that delay was most injurious to the best interests of the country, I, on a subsequent day, gave notice of my intention of moving for a select committee, to enquire into the truly alarming state of the company's India debt, and into the causes of the disappointment of the just expectations of the public, and the total and entire failure of every term, condition, and stipulation for which they obtained their charter. That such a discussion has not yet taken place, cannot with any justice be attributed to me. It has arisen from the state of the country, the state of the times, the state of the house, the want of a ministry, and especially from the absence of the members of the board of controul. —I am this night, preparatory to my intended motion, to move for some official returns, which will however occupy little time in
194
the preparation and production, and still less in reading; for, I believe, that six of the eight returns I shall call for, will be answered by six simple negatives; negatives, however, that will prove several gross violations of the law and high breaches of duty.—It will not be considered the least extraordinary of the circumstances of the present times, that lord Melville, who is now under impeachment for a violation of the law, and a high breach of duty, should, in 1793, have brought in a bill for the most important purposes, and drawn up with a care, precision, and solemnity proportionate to the importance of the subject, a bill holding out great political, commercial, and financial advantages; a bill to guard the happiness and prosperity of 40 millions of subjects, and to controul an expenditure of upwards of 230 millions; and that, while he is under impeachment, his act has been violated in every section, except one, where "the breach would have been more honorable than the observance." A misappropriation of the public money has taken place to an amount exceeding 20 millions sterling, and the violaters of the law have hitherto escaped without censure or notice.—By the act of 1793, after the payment of the military and civil establishment, the act enjoins that a sum not less than one million of pounds sterling shall be applied for commercial purposes, and remitted to Great Britain, to form a part of its national wealth. Since 1798, no sum whatever has been applied to commercial purposes, and the law has been violated in this single instance to a sum exceeding 8 millions. To this extent, and to this amount has this commercial nation been deprived of such an import from our colonies, which the law ordered and enjoined. By the 109th clause of the same act, the law provides, that the governor-general, to reduce the India debt of the company, which was considered as the most formidable enemy to its happiness and prosperity, and which amounted in 1793 to 7 millions, should draw for a sum amounting in each year to 500,000 l. which was to be applied to no other purpose, to no other account whatever, except to the reduction of the debt. Eight millions have been drawn from, and not one shilling has been applied to the purpose ordered and enjoined by the act of parliament. Bullion has been exported to the amount also of 8 millions, for the same purpose, and no part of the amount has been applied

195
towards the overthrow of an enemy, considered by every person, conversant in the affairs of India, as fatal to the prosperity of India and England.—By the 111th section of the act, after payment of the said sum of 500,000 l. to be drawn for the reduction of the debt, which was to be reduced to two millions of pounds sterling, the law allows of a dividend of ten per cent. per annum to the proprietors of East-India stock. This part of the act, and this part only, has been complied with; and I maintain, that this ought only to have been the case had funds been remitted from India from the surplus revenues of India. Now, sir, no such thing has been the case. These dividend, sir, to the amount of 600,000 l. yearly, have been paid from property provided in India, With money borrowed at an enormous rate of interest in the first instance, saddled with an enormous commission in the next, to the commercial servants of the company; and the sales of this property which had to pay the principal borrowed in India, the interest of 12 per cent. at the lowest, a commission of 10 per cent. to those that provided the investment, and a dividend of 10 per cent. to the proprietor, have, I am ready to substantiate, invariably produced a considerable, loss. But, sir, the payment of these dividends, for which the public must ultimately be answerable, ought not to have been paid from any funds except the profits arising from investments provided with time surplus revenues of India, and not payments from funds borrowed in India, and which have tended to increase the debt to 30 millions, instead of 2 millions enjoined by the law, has been a violation of the same, a high breach of duty, and has tended amongst other causes, and in no inconsiderable degree, to produce the state of embarrassment so much to be deplored, and tended not only to deprive the public of their just but small participation, but will in the end saddle them with a debt, which never now can be paid by the India company within the period of their charter. After the payment of this dividend, the laid provides, that the East-India company, in addition to the million of wealth to be yearly imported into Great Britain, which I maintain can be considered in no other light than as an income from an estate belonging to the nation, the East-India company stipulate and agree to pay into his majesty's exchequer, in half-yearly payments, as profits,
196
or direct advantage, a participation of 500,000 l. to the public in each year; but, if a failure takes place, it is to be carried as a balance to the succeeding year, and may be levied by a suit at law, with a penalty of 15 per cent. for each failure. No payment, sir, has been made, I believe, except in the first year; and the balance now due to the public amounts to nearly 7 millions of pounds sterling; but which, with interest and penalty, would produce a sum sufficient to the purchase of upwards of 35 millions of the capital of the debt of Great Britain.—The 115th clause provides, that the surplus funds of the company shall be laid out in stock, until the same shall amount to 12 millions of pounds sterling, which is to be placed from time to time in the bank of England, there to remain as a guarantee fund for the amount of their capital stock: and by the 116th clause, time governor and company of the bank of England are ordered and required to produce the account of such stock, and lay the same before both houses of parliament on. the 15th of Feb. in each year, if the parliament be then sitting, or within 14 days after time commencement of the then next session. No such returns have been made, and the public are yet to learn what stock has been purchased, and whether or not the capital of the company, on the expiration of the charter, is to be without time guarantee so solemnly stipulated for by the act of parliament: and by the 121st section of the act, it is ordered and enjoined, that, if the directors shall be unable to make good such payments to the public, they shall make representation of such inability to the chancellor of the exchequer, or the lords commissioners, who are empowered to issue an order, suspending such payments; but are required to come within 14 days to parliament, and produce such representation and order, and evidently to obtain the sanction and approbation of parliament. Here again, sir, the law, I believe, has been grossly violated. Had such yearly representation been made, as the law required, long ere this, I am satisfied, the house and the public would have found themselves compelled to revise a bargain, thus rendered nugatory, violated, and broken in all its parts. To enable gentlemen to meet this great question, I am this night to move for documents to prove the allegations I have now made; and I hope to this question, gentlemen will come with unbiassed minds,

197
and not shut their eyes to conviction, merely because the question is Indian, and because it is brought forward by a man new to this house and the public. The affairs of India must now force themselves on this house, however the evil hour may be delayed, and an attack on the purses of the people of Great Britain; and a certainty that, after a waste of much blood and much treasure, they will still be called upon perhaps to pay, certainly to guarantee, a debt of 45 millions sterling. These considerations will demand an attention, that the cries of millions, and the devastation of defenceless provinces, have been unable to effect.—I therefore move: "1. That there be laid before this house, an account of all the sums of money which have been paid by the East-India company into his majesty's exchequer, in obedience to the 111th section of the 33d of the king, c, 52.—2. A copy of all the representations which have been made to the lords of the treasury, in obedience to the 121st section of the said act.—3. A copy of all the orders which have been given by the lords of the treasury, for the suspension of the payments of the money due from the East-India company to the public, in obedience to the same section.—4. A copy of all the orders and representations as aforesaid, which have been made
by the commissioners of the treasury to parliament, in conformity to the same section of the act.—5. An account of all the stock purchased towards the guarantee fund of the company, limited by the 114th section of the act to 12 millions sterling. —6. The yearly accounts of such stock, and of its appropriation, which, by the 116th section aforesaid, the governor and company of the bank of England are required to lay before both houses of parliament, on or before the 15th of Feb. in each year; and if parliament shall not then be sitting, within 14 days after the commencement of the session of parliament.—7. An account of all bills of exchange drawn upon the court of directors from 1793 to the latest period; specifying the amount from each presidency, and the sum total in each year.—8. An account of The value of specie and bullion exported within the same period to Bengal, Madras, and Bombay; specifying the amount in each year, and any sums re-exported from Madras and Bombay to Fort William, in consequence of any orders from the governor-general of India.—9. A copy of all
198
applications made by the governor-general in council to the chief supercargoes at Canton for pecuniary aid, with the answers or returns made to such applications from 1798 to the last accounts from that factory."
Lord Castlereaghhoped the house would excuse him if, having been trusted with an important office in the administration of India, he felt that he could not sit silent, after the observations which had been made by the hon. member who spoke last. It appeared to him, that the hon. gent. had either misconceived the act he alluded to, or else he must have read it very hastily, as he had blended together the territorial and the commercial revenues, which should be considered as distinct things. As to the sending of bullion to India in payment for its colonial produce, whatever prejudice there might once have existed against exporting bullion, in modern times it was considered as an article of commerce, which might be exported without danger in its consequences. The hon. gent. had blended together many other considerations, which ought to have been kept distinct. He had not distinguished the debt and the assets abroad or at home, nor taken notice of that intermediate measure, the arrangement for the transfer of part of the Indian debt to this country. As to the act of appropriation, the only way that the house did, or could in common sense have ordered the appropriation was, that, in case of a surplus, there should be set apart, in the first place, a sum for the military expences; in the next place, for the civil and commercial affairs; and then, that the remainder should come over in investments. The hon. gent. was much mistaken, if he thought that a single enactment would be sufficient to allow the country to participate to the amount of the half million stated. Unless there was a surplus for such sum to come out of it, it would be impossible that it should be paid. When there was no surplus, it was also impossible that annual accounts should be laid before the house of an appropriation of a surplus. The hon. gent. seemed to be in a mistake throughout the whole of his speech, in only considering the surplus of territorial revenue, instead of the net proceeds arising from the commercial transactions of the East-India company, combined with their territorial revenue. The guarantee fund which he mentioned, was only to be created after the debt should be

199
duced to two millions.—As to the super-intendance of the board of controul, the noble lord said, it had in fact been confined, as the law directed, to the civil and military government and revenues of India. As to the commercial interests and concerns of the company, and their exclusive right to conduct their trade, and to instruct their presidencies concerning the provision of their investment, and on every subject connected with this part of their charter, the court of directors had been left to their own unbiassed discretion; and the board of controul had never interfered with them, much less had it ever thrown any impediment or embarrassment in their way.—In the present state of the finances of the East-India company, it must be recollected, that the last two or three years, and since the commencement of the Mahratta war, have been the times of the severest pressure. Up to the month of April 1803, he had frequently stated to the house, that the financial situation of India was a situation of great prosperity, affluence, and abundance, and such as justified the expectation which had been so long entertained of this country participating in the prosperity of the company. He should not speak either of what might be the financial pressure at the present moment, nor of the means that the company had of surmounting this pressure; but he thought it would be impossible for gentlemen to form a right judgment of the present state of Indian affairs, until the accounts of the years 1803 and 1804 were before the house. He concluded by asserting that, if it had not been that the subsequent expences of the war had disturbed unexpectedly the prosperity which prevailed in 1803, the statements he had made would have been realized.
Mr. Fullercould not think with the hon. mover, that the sun of Britain had set at the death of the marquis Cornwallis. He did not despond so. Men of talent could always be found for the service of the country. This led him to suggest to his majesty's ministers, whether something ought not to be done for admiral Cornwallis, the brother of that great man, who had distinguished himself so much by his blockade of the enemy in Brest.
Lord Folkestone.—Mr. Speakerthe noble lord (Castlereagh) in the latter part of his speech, has chosen to advise the hon. gent. who made this motion, to confine his enquiries about the finances of the East-
200
India company to the period of the two last years; and he says, that it will be best for his own purpose to do so. I do not know what purpose the noble lord imputes to the hon. gent., but I know with what view I shall support the motion he has made. 1 wish the whole state of the affairs of the company to be fully and completely examined, and the true condition of them to be made known to the house and to the country; and, for this reason, I hope the hon. gent. will not follow the advice of the noble lord, but will persevere in his intention of enquiring into the management of these affairs during the whole period of the existence of their charter.—Sir, the noble lord has further imputed to the hon. gent. a careless and negligent perusal of the act by which this charter was granted; and accuses him of not understanding it. Undoubtedly this act is a very long one, and in some parts,a little confused and unintelligible, particularly to those who are not acquainted with the local circumstances of India; but the part of the act to which alone the motions of the hon. gent. apply, are so plain, that I think it can be necessary for a gentleman to do nothing but read them, to be persuaded of the truth of what the hon. gent. has stated, that the provisions have been violated in almost every particular. But the noble lord says, the act provides for the appropriation of the surplus, if any; but could never mean to enact, nor could even be construed to mean to enact, that there should be a surplus. I conceive, sir, very differently. I confess I look upon this act as an agreement and bargain, between the company of merchants trading to the East Indies and the government of Great Britain. The government, for the public, gave to that company the exclusive right of trading to that part of the world; they surrender the right of the public to participate in the advantages of this trade; and, in return, require certain things at the hands of this privileged company. The remuneration, to be sure, is small enough. In return for the advantage and profit of an exclusive trade, the public ask for nothing but an annual payment of 500,000 l. But surely, sir, that is as much a contract as can be entered into; and, if the terms of the agreement are not fulfilled on either side, the contract is at an end. Now, sir, what is it that the law requires of the company, in return for the advantages conceded to them; how is the money arising

201
from this lucrative trade appropriated? In, the first place, the act provides, that the military and civil establishments in India should be defrayed from the profits of the territorial revenues of the company; and then, that a sum, not less than a million of money, should be set apart for the purpose of purchasing goods to bring to Europe, or, to use the words of the act, for providing an investment. The noble lord may perhaps say here, that no man could suppose that a law would be passed requiring that there should be such profits. But, when two parties enter into an agreement, and one takes great exclusive advantages, and promises to do certain acts, I should be glad to know, whether the non-performance of these acts is not a termination of the contract altogether. The company take the advantages offered—they take the profits; the act gives them up this; and then says, they shall do so and so with them: are they to continue to enjoy these rights and advantages without performing what the act requires? Well, sir, this investment, so purchased, is to be brought home and sold for the benefit of the company, and the profits arising from the sale are to be disposed of, 1st, in paying the dividends; 2d, in honouring bills of exchange to the amount of 500,000 l. and, 3dly, to paying 500,000 l. more into the exchequer, for the benefit of the state. Now, sir, there is a curious question arising here, and I am inclined myself to lay great stress on the argument of the hon. mover; viz. that, if this investment is really not purchased with money arising from the territorial revenues, after the expences of the civil and military establishments have been provided for, the dividends really ought not to be paid; for the act only allows them to be paid out of the profits arising from the sale of investments so purchased. However, be this as it may, the other appropriations of the said proceeds of the sale of investments have never been complied with, at least as far as the public is concerned. Except in one instance only, no payment has been made to the exchequer; and, as I contend this act must be considered as an actual agreement, and this payment as a remuneration to the public for the advantages they had foregone, I must think, that the charter has been forfeited altogether. It is true, indeed, that, in a subsequent clause, the act admits the possibility of such payment not being made, but it provides a regular manner,
202

by which it shall be dispensed with, and the parliament made acquainted with it.—Has this mode ever been adopted? Has parliament ever been informed? No, sir; the act here again, has been over and over again broken and violated.—The motions now before the house, are calculated to ascertain and to inform us of the extent of such violations of the act.—I think it is highly desirable they should be known, and therefore I shall certainly support them.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he had not wished to confine the enquiry to the two last years; on the contrary, he had stated that he was ready to prove, that the finances of the India company were in a flourishing state at the time he brought forward the last budget.
Mr. Francis.—Mr. Speaker;since I have had the honour of a seat in this house, I have heard many extraordinary propositions stated and argued on, as if they could not be disputed; hut, in my whole parliamentary life, none more extraordinary than some, which have escaped the noble lord this night. I shall state them briefly as they occur to me, and while they are fresh in my memory; observing only, that we are not talking now of the political government of India, or of the wars in that country, or of any question or subject in which the policy of England in regard to the territorial possessions is concerned. The noble lord asserts that the superintendance of the board of controul has in fact been confined, as the law directs, to the civil and military government and revenues of India. As to the commercial interests and concerns of the company, and their exclusive right to conduct their trade, and to instruct their presidencies concerning the provision of their investment and on every subject connected with this part of their charter, on all these points the noble lord affirms that the court of directors has been left to their own unbiased discretion; the board of controul had never interfered with them; much less had it ever thrown any impediment or embarrassment in their way. Is this the fact? If it be, I call on the directors to confirm it; if not, to tell us the real state of the case. Have the commissioners never interfered with their trade, or with their lawful discretion over their own proper concerns? I think I remember some strong instances of the contrary. What part did the commissioners take in the great question between the

203
company and the private traders? Was it a political or a commercial question, when their secretary (Mr. Broderick) informed the directors "that it would be unnecessary to send out any paragraphs, the tendency of which might be to occasion uneasiness in the mind of the governor-general?"* I am sure that various other facts of the same kind might be produced, though I cannot immediately recollect them. The second proposition asserted was, that the exportation of bullion to India (for observe we are not speaking of China), was no disadvantage to the company or to this country;—that bullion was just as much an article of export as any other commodity; and that, whether they exported that, or an equal value in manufactures, was just the same thing in a commercial sense. In a nation over-run with paper as we are, this is, at first sight, a strange proposition. The export accounts for the scarcity of specie, and that scarcity accounts for the abundance of the paper. But, is the proposition true in a commercial sense? Has the noble lord never heard of the balance of trade between one country and another? Certainly I do not pretend to much knowledge on these subjects: but, I have read a good deal, and I appeal to all the written authorities and more especially to the merchants of England on this question—Whether a nation, that constantly pays its commercial balance in specie, is not universally understood
* On the 26th of March 1802, the chairman acquainted the court, that Mr. Broderick had sent to him, by order of the board of controul, certain drafts (viz. of orders to he transmitted to India)—that he had laid those papers before the special committee, who had made a report thereupon, of which the following is an extract:—"The committee feel themselves constrained to report to the court as their opinion, &c. that the letter received this morning from the board, together with the two commercial paragraphs to be transmitted to India, when taken altogether, demonstrate a decided and unequivocal intention of invading and destroying the commercial rights and privileges of the East-India company. Still, however, flattering themselves that those rights, solemnly and deliberately granted to them by the legislature, will not be forcibly superseded or destroyed. Resolved unanimously, that this court approve the said report." Another letter of Mr. Broderick, alluded to by the hon. gent. contains the following passage, on a subject purely commercial: "Under the present circumstances, they (the board of controul) conceive that it would be unnecessary to send out any paragraphs, the tendency of which might be to occasion uneasiness in the mind of the governor-general. Dated 21st July, 1801."
204
to be the loser by that commerce? In former times, we never exported an ounce of silver to India. The investment for a long period was annually supplied out of resources of one kind or other on the spot; for several years, out of the surplus of the territorial revenues. While those latter resources lasted, the company obtained their investments for nothing. It was the only possible course, by which a tribute could be remitted from Bengal to England. Those supplies have been gradually exhausted. But they have left behind them the habits and the consequences of an unnatural precarious abundance: I mean expensive establishments, and extravagant habits.—The result, as I am informed by persons who understand this subject much better than I do, and as I firmly believe to be true, is that the company are considerable losers on the prune cost of their Indian investment, including all charges. What the consequence has been, or is likely to be to the state of the company's affairs at home, I need not argue at present. It will speak for itself when the directors apply, as I believe they will do, for relief and assistance from the public.—It will then be a national question in this house, to what degree the property of the public shall be applied to support the instant demands and necessities of the India company. On that day, they shall find me, what I have been through life, their real friend; not hired; not paid; not thanked by them; but, serving them to the utmost of my ability in spite of their blindness to their own true interests, and in spite of their ingratitude towards me. But, to do this, one condition is indispensible, viz, that a full and clear account of the state of their affairs commercial and financial, shall previously be laid before this house. I will maintain their dividend if it be possible, because I well know the distresses and sorrows to the innocent proprietor, that would attend a reduction of it. I do not now mean to blame the directors, and much less the body of proprietors, who, in fact, are the company, for many things, which have been done of late years. The company have been the victims, not the authors of the system, which has been followed. The principal point, on which I question the conduct of the court of directors is, that, from the renewal of the charter in 1793 to this hour, and while they have seen their property running from year to year to ruin,

205
they have never brought forward a state of their affairs as they ought to have done, by petition to this house, or by any public parliamentary remonstrance against an over-ruling power, if they were over-ruled. Have they ever in any instance appealed to the king in council against the board of controul? To this objection it is no answer to say, though in fact it might be true, that they are not free agents. When the first attempt to deprive them of their free-agency was made, then was their time to resist, or to remonstrate:—not by secret conferences with the members of the board of controul, but by appeal to. the wisdom and justice of parliament, or by some other public and honourable proceeding. A preconcerted harmony between the two powers, one of which is to originate all the acts of Indian government, and the other, to controul and correct them, if necessary, was not and could not be the parliamentary object of the institution of the superintending power. Otherwise, the board of controul ought to govern in the first instance by its own acts. I do not mean to defend the system: but, I say, the system, bad as it is, is infinitely better than the practice. This pretended harmony, I believe, will be found, upon examination, to be nothing more or nothing better than a good understanding between the president on one side, and a secret committee of directors on the other. The court of directors, as such, know little or nothing of what is going forward between those two parties: certainly not, in any thing that concerns the political government of India.—Once more the noble lord resorts this night, as he has often done before, to his old friend and never-failing associate, the Marhatta war. This war, in his lordship's contemplation, is, like death, I suppose, a cure for all things. If nothing else will do, it furnishes an inexhaustible source of relief to his own noble mind, when any Indian difficulty is to be discarded. He forgets that, in his speech of the 19th of July 1804, he has already most solemnly assured this house, and the public too in print, that the ten years ending in March 1803 was a period of nearly uninterrupted war, and that the Marhatta war, the merits of which are not, and cannot be, in question in this debate, did not commence until August 1803, consequently has no connection with, nor can, on any rational ground of argument, be pleaded, to account for, that state of India and of the
206
company's affair which is up to this day officially known to the house of commons. Admitting the Marhatta war to be a merit or a, remedy, and not at all a disorder, it is not in power of human wit to connect it with the case in hand. The accounts actually before parliament, reach no farther than to April 1803, and at that period the company owed twenty millions in India, to say nothing of their immediate debts and difficulties at home, which even then were intolerable. As to the general allegation of uninterrupted war, to account for the debts incurred, and the total failure of all the pecuniary engagements, contracted with and for the public, and in behalf of the company too, I say that the plea would not be a good one, if it were true. But I deny the fact. The war, which preceded 1803, will not account for the consequences imputed to it. The noble lord knows that I have maintained this opinion in another form; and as I think with arguments, which I may defy him or any man to answer. [This refers to Mr. Francis's "Observations on lord Castlereagh's speech", printed in 1805.] The next assertion of the noble lord is eminent indeed, even among the, prodigies of his own speech. He solemnly assures the house that, in April 1803, (in reference to the finances and pecuniary resources of the company) the state of their affairs was prosperous, affluent, and abundant. These were his words. Now, there are only two ways in which such an assertion, on such a subject, can be true, positively, or comparatively. The noble lord may take his choice. On the 30th of April 1803, the India debt is stated to you, by the directors and by himself, to have amounted to 19,800,000 l. and all the Indian estimates for the ensuing year take credit for expected receipts to an enormous amount, external to the proper resources of each presidency within itself, that is, to be derived from new loans, from draughts on the company, and from bullion expected to be received from England. On the 1st of March 1803, their bond debt in England amounted to about 1,750,000 l. Their debt to the bank was then 700,000 l. and even that loan could not have been obtained without a mortgage of their annuities, which they were empowered to sell. In order to exhibit a favourable balance on the face of their stock account, the directors were reduced to the necessity of leaving the capital of the company, for which the corporate body

207
had received 7,780,000 l. from the subscribers, totally out of the state of their debts. For this omission, it is true, they pleaded an order of the house of commons, when official orders were moved for without notice, and granted as a matter of Course. Such is the evidence of the noble lord's assertion taken, positively; and without saying any thing of the reasonable and obvious conclusion to be drawn from it, viz. that the India company must have been then in a condition to begin to liquidate their engagements, or, at least so much at their ease, that they would want no assistance from the public. Now is that the case? just the reverse. Their Indian debt, instead of being reduced in the last three years as it ought, if the means were so very abundant in March 1803, I am sure will be found to amount 30,000,000 more or less, I mean on this day. As to the application of this boasted abundance of means and assets to the relief of the company's difficulties in England, I will not anticipate what the court of directors will soon be compelled to tell you on that subject. But perhaps his lordship means that the prosperity and abundance, he alludes to, are to be understood comparatively. Comparatively! with what? Why with the state of the company's affairs in the three succeeding years, of Which no account has yet been laid before parliament, and of which this house literally knows nothing, except the happy information which they have just now received from himself. In April 1803, the company were nearly overwhelmed with debts and difficulties of every kind; but that, he assures you, was a state of affluence, prosperity, and abundance, compared to the present state of facts, as you are to find it in the accounts of the next three years, whenever they are produced! Then indeed, but not till then, the noble lord may call in the Marhatta war to his assistance. We shall see how far it will avail him. In the mean time, he supplies us with topics of consolation; with which if we are not thoroughly comforted, it must be very much our own fault. Your situation was bad enough three years ago; but that was a state of delight and enjoyment compared to what, he solemnly assures you, you will find to be at present! That is, you were troubled with a plethora in 1803. By copious bleeding and a free use of drastic medicines, those symptoms are removed. Your complaint has taken a different turn. All you want now is a
208
powerful restorative, at the expence of those Whom it concerns, to save your life.—I have said, sir, and I affirm it again, because it is true, that I have been, through all my political life, the sincere friend, as I was, for some years, the faithful servant of the India company; that is, the proprietary or body corporate, though not always in their sense of their real interest; which, in my opinion, they have sometimes misunderstood. Of this disposition and conduct I shall give one instance, which, as far as concerns my Sincerity, ought not to be disputed, because I could not but know that the opinion I allude to was not at all likely to be favourably received, and because I might easily have withheld it. I endeavoured to serve them then, as I have done in other cases, and in another situation, against their will. So long ago as the year 1777, I represented to his majesty's ministers, and through them to the India company, in a letter which has been published, the evil consequences, which, as I thought, must follow, not only to India but to the company itself, from their continuing to hold the sovereignty of Bengal ostensibly in their hands. It happened, sir, that, in the whole of that representation, I had not only the entire concurrence but the able assistance of the present chairman of the court of directors. In those days we lived together on terms of real friendship and unreserved confidence, which, at that time, he thought no disparagement to him. When the charter was renewed in 1793, as well as on various other occasions, I renewed my arguments and objections on this point. All the documents, that relate to it, are in print. The arguments were never answered; nor, in my judgment, is it possible to answer them. In 1793, and for many years before, their sovereignty, or their political power over the Indian empire, was little more than nominal; nor could it be otherwise. Well, what has been the result? Exactly what they ought to have foreseen. When they determined to be sovereigns instead of merchants, or to unite in the company those two incompatible characters, what could they expect but, whether they liked it or not, to be made warriors and conquerors? that is, that their pretended servants in India, over whom they had no controul nor real authority, would pursue the old game of war and conquest, in their name, at their expence, and finally to their destruction. Look at this re-

209
sult in another point of view; and, if it be not too late, learn wisdom at last from the aweful lesson, which the state of your commercial connexions with the eastern world ought to have taught you long ago. In that part of Asia, in which the India company has been a sovereign, a warrior, and a conqueror, they cannot trade without loss. The sale of their Indian investment, to say the best of it, after paying prime cost, interest, freight, insurance, duties, and charges of merchandise, leaves no profit. Now look at China, where they have no territorial revenues; where they have made no war; and where, I hope, even for their own sake, they will never make a conquest. With that country only, they carry on a beneficial trade. From that trade only, they derive the only profits that enable them still to exist in Leadenhall street.
Lord Castlereaghin explanation, stated that his sentiments as to the prosperous state of the company's affairs in the year 1803, were founded on the fact of there being a clear surplus of 1,150,000 l. after the payment of all charges in India. The reason why the public did not receive the 500,000 l. on this occasion was, that this sum was payable, not from the Indian funds of the company, nor from the home funds, but from a combination of both. An increased duty laid on teas hail produced a diminution in the sale of that article in that year, which, instead of so great a surplus, left a defalcation of half a million, and thus the claim of the public was destroyed.
Mr. Charles GrantThis discussion, sir, has unexpectedly branched out into a variety of topics of great importance, for which I must regret that I am not better prepared. Some observations however, particularly on what has fallen from the hon. gent. (Mr. Francis) I shall beg leave to offer to the house.—The hon. gent. has stated it as his opinion, that the company would have done well to have relinquished the sovereignty of their territorial possessions, and to have confined themselves to commercial pursuits; for that they have, in fact, been ruined by those acquisitions sir, I differ very widely from the hon. gent. on these points, and think the doctrine he has advanced, respecting the political government of India, a very dangerous one. I consider the East-India company as the fittest Organ by which this country can beneficially manage and govern its empire in
210
the east. It is the fittest for securing the possession of that distant dependency to Great Britain, and for securing it without any danger to our own constitution. If the government of India were to be vested immediately in the crown, I scruple not to express my apprehension, that the consequences of such an arrangement would be finally the loss of that country; and if the patronage of India were in the disposal of the crown, our own constitution might be overset; whereas that patronage, in the hands of a numerous body belonging to the middle classes of society, can be attended with no political danger. And here, sir, I cannot refrain from taking the liberty to exhort those distinguished persons who are high in his majesty's counsels, to be extremely cautious of encouraging any idea of altering the constitution which the law has established for British India. After a long acquaintance with that country. I feel myself warranted to say, that no other constitution would be so beneficial or so safe for it. The Indian empire was originally acquired, preserved, and maintained by the company, at their own hazard and with little assistance from the state; and they have since managed it more for the benefit of both countries than for their own; for they derive nothing but their dividend from all their vast concerns. The advantages received from India do not result from investment only. The tide of private fortunes, which is continually flowing to us from it, greatly enhances our national wealth; the customs and duties paid on the commerce with it augment the public revenue; and how much does the possession of an empire there raise the political consequence of this nation? It is true these advantages result rather to the public at large than to the East-India company: but the company are not therefore to relinquish their rights of sovereignty. They have also still a large eventual interest in its prosperity by the settlement of the guarantee fund, although the fatal event which deranged the state of Europe (the French revolution), has hitherto frustrated much of the benefit reasonably expected by us from India. To a period of war during twelve years, the consequence of the French revolution, and to that chiefly is to be ascribed the failure in the annual payment of the 500,000 l. stipulated to government. The increased expences consequent on European war, and of expeditions undertaken in India against the enemies of the country, ab-

211
sorbed the funds from which that payment was to come. There never was, after the first year, such a surplus as was in contemplation of the law; nor, therefore, has any payment been since made, nor any, debt incurred on account of it; but the noble lord (Castlereagh) has explained the whole of this subject so clearly, that I need say nothing more upon it.—The hon. gent. (Mr. Francis) has said, that the company cannot even purchase their investment without loss: that having been habituated to obtain it, in fact for nothing, they fell into habits of extravagance in the provision of it, and lost sight of true commercial principles. I can assure the house, that since the first arrival of lord Cornwallis in India, now near twenty years ago, the company's investment has been purchased as carefully and economically as the goods of private merchants can be. I have something more than more knowledge for this assertion. The hon. gent. who has brought forward this motion has affirmed, that the company derive no profit from their Indian commerce, indeed that they have no such commerce; but that even their dividends are paid from money borrowed at a high interest in India. Sir, this is a monstrous proposition. I am ready to prove that the company do derive a profit from their Indian commerce even now, when their investments from abroad are much reduced, and the times are unfavourable, and that the dividends of the company arise from commercial profits. The same hon. gent. has said that the company have remitted to India to the amount of 8 millions sterling in money and goods, and that bills to a like amount have been drawn on them from India. These assertions must suppose that the company receive large supplies from India, and in goods too; because goods furnish the only mode in which such supplies can come; else how could the company make such payments here? for their capital is not nearly equal to them, and is so diffused in their concerns as not to be annually revertible to such purposes.—As to the export of bullion to India for the purposes of commerce; nothing is now better understood than that bullion may be employed like any other article of merchandize, and may sometimes be the most advantageous export for the purchase of commodities abroad. So it has often been found in the commerce between Europe and Asia, as well by the ancients as in our own times; and
212
the reason is plain: the mutual wants of Europeans and Asiatics for the commodities of each other are not equal. The Europeans demand more of the productions of Asia, than the Asiatics will take of the commodities of Europe; of course the difference must be paid by the common medium of bullion. But this, if it were a loss to Europe in general, is no loss to thin country, because we receive the bullion from abroad in exchange for our own manufactures; and whether we send to India our manufactures, or the bullion paid to us by other countries to them, is much the same. It is true, that for some time after our first acquisition of Indian territory, the large surplus of revenue rendered it unnecessary for the company to continue the exportation of specie. This again, from the diminution of our surplus revenue and the increase of trade, has altered, and bullion is now exported by private merchants as well as the company, upon the truest principles of trade. The company have sent bullion to India for other purposes, and these perhaps the hon. gent. confounds with commercial remittances. A judicious plan was formed a few years ago, principally by the noble lord (Castlereagh) near me, for the liquidation of the. Indian debt. The principle of the plan was, by an augmentation of the net surplus abroad and commercial profits at home, to raise a fund of 2 millions annually, for the reduction of tire debt. The increased exports of goods and bullion from hence, which this plan required, were accordingly made; but all the bullion, as soon as it reached India, was applied to the purposes of war, which has continued to defeat the effects intended from this salutary plan. From the same unhappy cause the India investments, which were intended to be larger, have fallen short of their usual standard, and in the present year are greatly reduced. With respect to the freedom of the company in the management of their affairs, this is a delicate subject. The law has appointed a board of commissioners to superintend the conduct of the directors in all matters not commercial. The board exercises this superintendance, and from the manner of exercising it, differences of opinion have not unfrequently arisen. But, in matters purely commercial, the court are left at perfect liberty, except as to the amount of funds to be applied in India to the purpose of investment. In the species of goods to

213
be traded in, in their cost and quality, in the ships to be employed, the times of their dispatch, and the sale of goods, the company are left at perfect liberty; but if commercial questions arise, which, in the opinion of the commissioners, involve points of a political nature, they will interfere. Such they held to be the question of the private trade, agitated a few years ago, in which the directors thought themselves hardly treated.—In points of a political and financial nature, the court have often differed with the board; but, having done their duty in stating their sentiments, they have commonly yielded to the authority which the law has placed over them. I have no objection to an investigation into the conduct of the directors; and I am a friend to sober enquiry respecting the application of the company's property; but no advantages can result from such exaggerated statements as the hon. gent. who has made this motion brings forward. In asserting the misapplication of 20 millions of the public money, he is totally unfounded. He will not be able to show the misapplication of one million, nor of a single pound. The debt of the company is undoubtedly a subject of very serious concern; but it has, contrary to the hon. mover's assertion, been enhanced chiefly by the wars which have existed in Europe and India, and the military expeditions fitted out in the latter country by order of his majesty's government, for the expence of which the company have been very imperfectly paid. The debt has rapidly increased within these few last years; it is now above 27 millions, and way be near 30; notwithstanding which, part of the expense of the recent wars in India has been defrayed, as already notice, by money sent from Europe; and, unless the expences there are materially reduced, the exigencies of India will continue to require supplies from this country: if, above all, the debt goes on increasing, it may be attended with the most serious consequences to the company and to the country at large. The company are, however, not to blame in this, nor the administration at home. The late wars were commenced so suddenly, that there wan not time for any instructions from home. I deeply lament the state of our affairs abroad, and the system of policy that has brought the company's affairs into such a state; but on this subject it is not my purpose now to enlarge.—I have
214
heard something, sir, of an intention to move for a select committee, to enquire into the rise of the company's debt. I conceive no committee can be necessary for any such purpose. The company's accounts will clearly furnish the information wanted, without the labours of a committee. The gradual progress of the debt, and the means by which it has been incurred, can be distinctly shewn to this house; and indeed the accounts annually laid before parliament are sufficient for the purpose. I must, moreover, deprecate the manner in which the hon. mover announces his opinions and enquiries to the house and to the public; a manner calculated to do mischief both abroad and at home; to excite suspicions and apprehensions in the public mind, which may even affect the credit of his majesty's government, and unsettle the minds of people in India, who may be doubtful with what designs, and to what extent, such enquiries may be prosecuted; because, instead of confining the enquiry to the subject directly avowed (to investigate which, if sufficient reasons are assigned, there can be no objection), the researches may be consequently carried into many other subjects, concerning which nothing has been before said, and pursued with views riot beneficial to the public. For these reasons, I think, all such enquiries into India affairs, unless evidently necessary, and especially undefined enquiries by committees, ought to be avoided.
Mr. FrancisSir, I did never say, that the mode, now established by law, for governing India, ought at this moment to be changed; no, nor one word to that effect. I said nothing prospectively. The general opinion I alluded to, was given near 30 years ago, and to that opinion the worthy chairman was then, bonâ fide, as much a party as myself.
Mr. Secretary Foxobserved, that the few words of explanation which had just fallen from his hon. friend, rendered it less necessary for him to enter particularly upon this subject. He had understood him precisely as his explanation imported. He agreed that we were not now to revert to original theories; but when we were examining into the causes of important events which were extremely complicated in their nature, it was somewhat difficult to do so without, in some measure, adverting to such original theories. He, however, did not mean to say that any altera-

215
tion ought at present to take place in the general system of Indian government as now, by law, established. He had occasion to state at a former time, that there was a wide difference between disapproving of measures at their commencement, and afterwards rescinding them when they had been some time in practice. This he had said with regard to the union with Ireland. He had strongly disapproved of that measure when it was proposed, because he was then convinced it was a bad one, and was still convinced that it would have been much better for the country if it had never taken place. He had also disapproved of the plan for the government of India, but what he had said with regard to the union with Ireland, he now said respecting this plan of Indian government. It was, in his opinion, a bad one from the beginning, but as it had been adopted and acted upon, it was not now to be lightly rescinded. In ninety-nine cases of this nature out of a hundred, it was better to put up with many inconveniences arising from the first adoption of a measure, than hazard worse evils by premature and ill-considered alterations and innovations. This was his opinion.—Now, the hon. gent. had said something about a committee to investigate the rise and progress of the debt. This was the first time he had heard of any such committee. But when he said this, he begged leave to be considered as not pledging himself in any way upon the subject. however, upon examining into the state of the finances of the company, there should be any thing which, though clear to the hon. gent., might not be so clear to the house in general, he did not say but that in such a case he might think a committee extremely advisable. If, on the other hand, the accounts should place the matter in a plain and clear light, the appointment of a committee would be an useless trouble.—Now, with respect to the details of this debate, he, speaking on the part of the public, would certainly say, that it was a most monstrous proposition to assert that in the Year 1803, the state of the company was highly, affluent and prosperous. To be sure the act of 1793 only applied to the surplus of the produce. But then it supposed that such a surplus was likely to exist, otherwise it would have been perfectly nugatory from the beginning. We were surely to conclude, that there might be a surplus in such case. This certainly was not too much. But when we find that
216
from 1793 to 1803, a period of ten years, no surplus had in fact existed, and that nothing had been done on the provisions of the act of parliament, such a long experience might be sufficient to convince us that the affairs of the company had not been in the very flourishing state in which they had been asserted to be. But we must say, after the passing of this act, and the long time that bad elapsed, during which nothing had been done upon it, that the fair conclusion was, either that the surplus had been misapplied, or that the country had been most grossly deluded, and that, instead of being in a flourishing condition as had been pretended, the affairs of the company had in fact been in a most alarming situation, a situation which ought to have been explained and laid open to the public, instead of being carefully concealed from the public view. In his opinion, the unprosperous condition of the company's concerns had never been sufficiently accounted for. He did not say that he had not heard a great deal on the subject, but what he had heard in general, proceeded on false facts, and false principles. We ought to have the accounts of the company before us, with a view to a full and complete examination, not for the purpose of retrospective enquiry into the conduct of the managers of the affairs of India, with the intention of throwing blame upon any body, but for the purpose of warning us, the present administration, against the errors which others had committed. In one thing the present administration would certainly not follow the example of others, and that was in holding out false and delusive hopes to the country. The hon. gent. (Mr. Grant) had said, and justly too, that it would be mischievous to spread alarm among our friends and inspire confidence into our enemies, when no necessity for it existed. But without pretending to underrate the value of the observation, he must say, that this had been a common-place argument on one side of the question. It might be improper to excite alarm when there was no necessity for it, but it was much worse to conceal danger when it actually existed, and thus lead people on blindfold to their destruction. It was worse in any department of government, but more particularly so in the case of the East-India company. But he would put it to him, whether of late the error had not been committed, much oftener in the way of delusion, than in

217

the way of alarm, at least as far as regarded this subject? Now, experience would teach the wise to avoid those faults into which they had found others most apt to fall. Certain it was, that much less was to be apprehended from too much jealousy than from too much negligence. No objection had been made to the motion of his hon. friend near him (Mr. Francis). He had only been requested to postpone it upon a point of convenience; to which he had properly agreed. Before he sat down, he could not avoid paying that tribute of praise to the industry, perseverance, and clear-sighted policy of his hon. friend, on questions relative to India, which they so much deserved. In his Opinion, there was no one subject in his majesty's dominions, whose merit, with regard to the affairs of India, could be put in competition with that of his hon. friend.
Lord Morpethobserved, that there appeared to be no objection to the principle of these motions. It would be in the recollection of the house, that the half million which the company had engaged to pay to the public had only been paid in one instance. This was a matter of complete notoriety. He should be sorry to withhold any information; but he submitted to the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull) whether it was necessary for him to press his motions, as they related only to points which were universally known.
Sir T. Metcalfeassured the house he would only trouble them with a very few words. It was extremely well known to every member in that house, that for many years past the expences of the company had been very much on the increase; and nothing could be more self-evident than this, that while expences were increasing, there could be no surplus. He only wished on one point to shew, that during the time the 500,000 l. had not been paid to the treasury, government had received advantages which were abundantly adequate. He begged the house to recollect that at the period when the right hon. gent. at the head of his majesty's government, brought forward the tax of 12½ per cent. on teas, by way of commutation for other taxes, no one thought the company would have afterwards more to pay than that tax of 12½ per cent. Instead of which, the tax on teas had since been raised to 95 per cent. If the duty during that period had continued at 12½ per cent. the company would have paid somewhat more than 5 million but from the pro-
218
gressive rise of the duty to its present amount, they had paid upwards of 17 million, so that the treasury had received 12 million more than they would have done, if the first stipulation had been adhered to; and thereby the public had derived more advantages than the company, who have been also deprived of that sum towards the discharge of the payments alluded to.
Mr. Alderman Prinsepsaid, he felt as much as any one the danger of alarming the public mind in respect to the state of the company's affairs; but he had thought it his duty, more than once, to state to the house what he thought on that subject, when it occasionally came before them for their consideration. He was now of opinion, that his majesty's ministers, who had lately taken upon them so great a responsibility, ought, in duty to themselves, to cause such investigations to take place, as to satisfy themselves whether the amazing amount of the present debt had accrued from a losing commerce, or from a great increase of military force and military expenditure. They ought to endeavour to find out the means of reconciling the paradox of a surplus and an increasing debt, a flourishing state of affairs, and an exhausted revenue and decreasing commerce, existing at one and the same moment, in the concerns of the same company. He hoped some enquiry, either public or private, would take place, and that speedily; for, as to the present system of revenues and resources, he saw nothing in it but delusion and deception, highly dangerous in their continuance.
Mr. Johnstoneobserved, that he would not trouble the house with many remarks on this business; first, because the question was premature, since it would have come forward much better after the accounts had been laid on the table; and next, because the attention of ministers ought not at present to be turned away from affairs that required their more immediate labour. But he would say, however, that no blame whatever attached to the company, as it was clear from the accounts, that their failure to pay the sum agreed upon to the public, arose from the wars in which they had been engaged. No committee, he contended, was necessary, as every thing was detailed in the accounts in the clearest and minutest manner. And when differences arose between his hon. friend (Mr. Francis) and himself on the one side, and the noble lord (Castlereagh) near him on the other, the cause was, that

219
the noble lord founded all his arguments upon estimates, while they constantly argued from results. There were no differences as to facts.
Sir Hugh Inglissaid, the reason why government had not participated in the promised payments was, that in 1793, when the charter was renewed, hopes were entertained, that the war would very soon be at an end; but, unfortunately, those hopes had been disappointed, and we had ever since been engaged in war, either with the French or the native powers, and sometimes with both, by which the debt had been enormously increased, and the expences of the war had been placed to the debit of the company's accounts, with no other allowance than the difference between a war and peace establishment; and yet, from the account made out since 1793, it would appear, that the company's dividends had been paid out of the profits of their trade. As to a select committee, he was certain nothing could be done by it that would not be better effected by his majesty's ministers forming the board of controul.
Mr. Paullreplied at some length to the various arguments that had been made against his intended motion for a select committee. The noble lord opposite, (said the hon. gent.) accuses me of reading the act rather hastily: to that observation I shall make no reply. The noble lord (Folkestone) who with so much honour to himself, and advantage to the public, has this night seconded and supported my motions, has made so able a reply, and joined so cordially in my construction of the act, that any observation on my part, would only weaken the arguments of that noble lord; happily, too, I am borne out by the opinion of the right hon. secretary (Fox), of which I am not a little proud. The noble lord has said, that the situation of the company in 1802-3 was flourishing, prosperous, and happy, and their resources ample, and possessed of the means of fulfilling their engagements made in 1793. The present is not the time for the proof of this assertion; but I hold in my hand an opinion not likely to be controverted, that of the directors themselves, which I beg leave to read; it is from the third report of the select committee, dated in the very year 1802, that year so triumphantly referred to by the noble lord. In the third report of the select committee of the court of directors, after alluding to the letter of my lord Melville, they say, "Mr. Dun-
220
das (we quote his own words) says: When I saw the Indian debt rise to above 10 millions, bearing interest, and still likely to increase, I thought it my duty to state to you the propriety of restoring to India, from your treasury at home, a part of that balance; and this led me to state, that I was ready to meet the Indian debt, even at the large amount of 14 millions. Every person conversant with the affairs of India, will concur with Mr. Dundas, that the safety of the empire depends, amongst other things, on the comparative magnitude of the debt. He was alarmed, and with reason, when the amount was 10 millions; but, as an exertion, and with a responsibility of which he appears to have felt the weight, he was ready to meet it on the 30th of June 1801, at the large amount of 14 millions. However discouraging the prospect may be (alluding to the debt at 16 millions) it is aggravated by circumstances which never existed before. The establishments are increased, the political resources absorbed, and it is further intended to deprive the company of a resource, essential to save it from utter destruction." It is for the noble lord to reconcile these contrary opinions. The hon. chairman (Mr. Grant) has said, that the trade of the company has been profitable; but what trade, I ask, and I ask it confidently? The trade of China has been most lucrative; for there we have no territory, no armies, no establishments; but I am ready to meet the hon. gent. and to prove, that the investments from Bengal have been purchased with money produced by loans at a high rate of interest, saddled with a farther Commission of 10 per cent. to the commercial servants; and that the Bengal commerce during the last five years, has produced a positive loss of not less than 3 millions sterling in the amount invested; and now the debt and interest remain, and must remain to the last hour of the charter, a debt due in India by the company.—The noble lord and the hon. chairman, have maintained, that the increase of the debt has arisen from wars. Now, sir, primâ facie, the same, in the first place, is contrary to your laws, and the argument, unless the wars can be justified, a very unsatisfactory one. But I deny the fact; and, if there is one part of lord Wellesley's conduct more to blame than another, it was the unprepared state of our army, in every essential for commencing active operation when hostilities com-

221
menced. So unprepared was lord Lake for taking the field, that government was forced to means unjustifiable, oppressive, and unjust, to enable lord Lake to move from Cawnpore. Let the requisitions made on the vizier, for elephants, camels, horses, bullocks, waggons, and bearers to carry the sick and wounded of the army, decide the question. I deny again, that to the war is to he attributed the alarming state of the debt; it will be found in your system of finance, in the provision of your investments, and in the profuse, wasteful, extravagant, illegal expenditure of the public money by the late governor-general. I was anxious and eager to abstain from all mention of that nobleman on the present occasion; but, when causes unfounded in fact are to go forth to the public, I feel it my duty to state the true causes of the increase of the debt which we so much deplore, however galling they may be to the noble lord alluded to.—Another hon. gent. (Mr. Johstone) has stated this motion as premature, and advised me to stay for the budget. Sir, the budget has nothing to do with the object I have in view; it is to the errors of the system I object. Besides who, I ask, attends' to the voluminous accounts yearly produced? they are only calculated to tire the reader, not to instruct. But, sir, I repeat again, the correctness of the accounts, and the sums total, are foreign to the object of enquiry I have in view. The system of finance, of commerce, of expence, are all faulty, all defective; and it is to these I wish to apply a remedy through the means of a select committee.—I would willingly comply with the suggestions of the noble lord (Morpeth), did not a sense of duty prevent me. The negatives will prove the breaches of law; and I must persevere in my motions, and divide the house, if they are objected to. One word more, sir, and I have done. The line I am pursuing is to me a troublesome one, and no personal advantage can possibly result to me from it; on the contrary, I know I subject myself to much obloquy and much inconveniency. But, sir, viewing the evil as I do, and perceiving that if a remedy is not speedily applied, an experiment must be tried, that may level with the dust the public funds of Great Britain, I shall, at all events, do what I feel to be incumbent on me; and, should the house neglect the warning I have given, and shut their eyes to the approaching danger, gentlemen will lament when too late
222
their fatal credulity. Under every consideration of the subject, I must take the sense of the house on the motions I have this night made.
Mr. Hiley Addingtonwished that the honourable gentleman would withdraw his motions; because as it was known that there were no such papers as he called for, they were mere nullities, to say no worse. He seriously deprecated the prominent disposition manifested so frequently by the hon. gent. who spoke last, to asperse and criminate the character of a noble person, not now present to defend himself,—and this before any document to sustain his allegations, or any regular enquiry into the noble person's conduct was before the house. At least he was sure if the hon. gent. did not condescend to take the advice he now took the liberty to offer him, he had sufficient experience of the candour and liberality of the house to be convinced that such allegations, thus unsupported by any thing but assertion, would have no weight in their opinion.
Dr. Laurencesaid, that this was a common mode of proving that there were no such papers by having a return to that effect. He supported the motion of the hon. gent. and observed, that it now appeared the noble lord's flattering statement of the abundantly prosperous state of the affairs of the company in 1803, was entirely founded upon a prospective supposition of a permanent peace; whereas, in one month afterwards, his majesty's message was brought down to the house, announcing the explosion of a new war.—Mr. Paull's motions were then put and carried.