Commons Sitting of 3 May 1805

MINUTES.
—The sheriffs of. London presented at the bar the petition of the lord mayor, aldermen, and common council of the city of London, in council assembled, against the prayer of the Catholic petition, now on the table of the house.—Ordered to lie on the table till the day for taking said petition into consideration.—Mr. Leycester informed the house from the bar, that pursuant to their order he had waited on the lords with their request to their lordships, that they would permit lord viscount Melville to attend the committee appointed to consider further of the matter of the tenth report referred to them, in order to his being examined; and that their lordships had signified their intention to send their answer by a messenger of their own.—Mr. Jeffery gave notice, that he should on Monday make a motion relative to the number of vessels that had been fitted out and stored in his majesty's yards during the administration of lord St. Vincent.—Mr. Tierney submitted whether the hon. gent. ought not in candour to state the nature of the papers for which he intended to move; and whether, if he intended to make them the ground of charge upon the noble earl, it would not he more fair at once to move for an inquiry into his conduct, than to bring forward a charge upon an ex parte statement.—Mr. Jeffery stated his object to be, to procure a document whereby the comparative state of the navy then and at present might be ascertained, and whether the former administration of the admiralty was entitled to the approbation of the house.—The chancellor of the exchequer brought up the bill for continuing, for a time to be limited, the act for appointing the commissioners of naval inquiry, which was read a first time; also the bill for appointing commissioners to inquire into the different departments of the public expenditure therein mentioned, and

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to report thereon to the house.—Read a first time.

PETITION FROM MIDDLESEX RESPECTING THE 10th NAVAL REPORT.
—A petition of the freeholders of Middlesex was. presented to the house by Mr. Byng, setting forth, "that the votes of your hon. house on the 8th and 10th days of April last, founded on the tenth report of the commissioners of naval enquiry, has interested the whole nation, and no part of the nation more deeply than your petitioners.—We humbly crave the liberty of stating, that no measures ever yet issued from the commons of England which had diffused more gladness or raised more expectations than the said votes of April the 8th and 10th, declaring lord viscount Melville to be 'guilty of a gross violation of the law and a high breach of duty;' thereby supporting the upright and virtuous discharge of the salutary duties of the said commissioners, whose conduct has excited the gratitude and the confidence of the whole country.—That the renewal of the said commission is a subject of unfeigned joy to your petitioners; and that we entreat your hon. house to be careful to make the new law effectual, and adequate to its end. We pray your hon. house to attend particularly to those parts of the tenth report which have detailed the obstacles thrown by persons in office in the way of the investigation of the said commissioners, and to guard against their repetition.—We submit to your hon. house whether the subaltern agents of corruption will not be eager to shelter their contumacy under the example of their superiors, unless the explicitness and enlarged authority of the law defeat their artifices. Nothing, we are persuaded, could be more revolting to the public sentiment, or could more thoroughly disappoint the hopes of the country, than that, instead of inquiries real, honest, and efficient, a fallacious and illusory system should be allowed to be adopted, under which real guilt might elude detection, and the substance of earnest investigation be sacrificed to mere pretence and show.—Your petitioners humbly beg leave to state to your hon. house, that a civil action against viscount Melville and Mr. Trotter would not, of itself, be satisfactory to the public expectation. That a criminal prosecution against these delinquents is the real wish of the country; because the recovery of millions of money would not be of such real benefit to the people, as to see the justice of the law vindicated upon a great malefactor, with the
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same equal, impartial, partial, and inflexible sternness, with which it falls upon the poorest and most unprotected criminal.—Your hon. house, by the said votes of the 8th and 10th of April, has extorted the admiration of those most hostile to the character and construction of the lower house of parliament. By following up the spirit of those votes, your hon. house will secure the confidence and the affection of the nation, and the triumph of the English constitution will be complete.—We entreat you to proceed and finish your labours upon these points in a manner that may be worthy of your honoured and applauded commencement of the same. We beg of you not to cease till you bring viscount Melville to condign punishment; to expose delinquencies where-ever traced, and to make an example of guilt in whatever quarter it may be proved."—Ordered to lie upon the table.

PETITION FROM WESTMINSTER RESPECTING THE 10th NAVAL REPORT.
—A petition of the electors of the city and liberty of Westminster, convened by the high bailiff in Palace-yard, on Friday the 3d of May, was presented by Mr. Fox and read; setting forth, "That your petitioners share the national gratitude to your hon. house, for your memorable and virtuous votes of the 8th and 10th days of-April last, founded upon the tenth report of the commissioners of naval enquiry, declaring the lord viscount Melville to be guilty of a gross violation of the law and a high breach of public duty.—Never were parliamentary measures received with more exultation by the country than the said votes; and nothing, your petitioners are persuaded, could cause more disappointment to the nation than your hon. house's stopping short of these great ends of justice, which the public interest demands, and the honour you have acquired by the said votes, exacts and enforces at your hands.—The pure, the moderate, the faithful, the independent and the dignified discharge of the functions with which the law has invested the said commissioners of naval enquiry has filled the country with the most unqualified admiration of their conduct. The renewal of their authority is a source of the most unfeigned pleasure to the people at large; and we do most earnestly supplicate your hon. house, that in the construction of the new statute, your attention will be fixed upon the contumacious obstruction to full enquiry, which is so clearly pointed out in the said tenth report; and that you will carefully guard

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against its repetition.—Your petitioners beg leave to state to your hon. house, that a civil suit against lord Melville and Mr. Trotter, unaccompanied by criminal prosecution, would be infinitely short of the public hopes, because it is so of public justice. It is not the refunding of money that, of itself, is of real consequence to the nation; it is the infliction of an exemplary vengeance. upon proved and powerful delinquents. It is the manifestation to the whole world that high criminals are not above the reach of punishment; and that the corrupt or wanton violators of law shall feel the strength of its arm.—Above all things we intreat your hon. house not to permit the public feeling to be sported with; and in the formation of inquiries similar to the naval commission, that you will take care that the power constituted be equal to its professed objects; both as relating to the vigor of the authority, and to the integrity of those who are to put it in execution; for we submit to your hon. house whether, if any thing can be worse than a deep-rooted, wide-spreading system of abuse and peculation in the management of public money, it would not be the institution of a system of revision, in its nature a burlesque upon investigation, and in its result a mockery of justice.—To all these points we beg the best attention of your hon. house. We beseech you to pursue with effect what you began with so much honour. We intreat you not to relax in your efforts till you have brought lord Melville to condign punishment, and given to all who shall be found to have committed similar crimes, a signal demonstration, that, in the representatives of the people, instead of abettors of their iniquities, they will find only the faithful guardians of the nation, and the zealous vindicators of the laws."—Ordered to lie on the table.

ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.
Mr. Foxobserved, that as the day which he had fixed for submitting a motion to the house an the subject of the petition of the Catholic body of Ireland was so near, he deemed it proper to take this opportunity of stating the reasons on which he proposed to defer that Motion from the 10th to Monday the 13th inst. One reason was, that many gentlemen interested in the discussion were now in Ireland, and could not attend on Friday. This was a sufficient reason, but it was not the principal one. Another was, the importance of the business which was to occupy the attention of the house next week. His hon. friend (Mr. Whitbread) had a mo-
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tion of considerable importance, which, together with the other motions noticed on several interesting subjects, would, perhaps, fatigue gentlemen so much as to render it inconvenient to have his motion brought forward on Friday. He thought this was a fit time to state for the information of gentlemen, the substance, if not the precise words, of the motion which he should submit to the house on the subject. His motion would be, that the house should resolve into a committee of the whole house, to consider of all the matters contained in the petition, and whether it would be expedient that all, or any of the prayers it contained, should be complied with, or whether a middle course should be adopted for granting some, and deferring the decision upon the rest of their claims; or whether or not some collateral means of meeting the wishes of the petitioners might not be eligible.
Dr. Duigenandeclared himself hostile to the prayer of the petition, and should, therefore, oppose the motion of the hon. gent.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
—The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the order of the day for going into a committee of supply; and on his motion, also, the extraordinaries of the army, the expences of the volunteers in Great Britain and Ireland, and the deficiency of the consolidated fund, were referred to the said committee.—The house having resolved into a committee, the following sums were voted:

To make good the excess of the extraordinary services of the army over the estimates voted last year

£668,803

15

3

Extraordinary services of the army for the present year

3,000,000,

0

0

To complete the sum of five millions granted out of the monies that should arise from the consolidated fund of Great Britain for the year 1804

3,049,488

15

3

To defray the expences of the volunteers in Great Britain and Ireland

1,600,000

0

0

Mr. Johnstonesaid, he did not rise to object to this resolution; but, as emigrants were included in this sum, he submitted it to the committee, whether it would not be better that the money voted for emigrants should be a distinct vote for that purpose, instead of being brought into the army extraordinaries? There was another circumstance which struck him, and that was, he, observed, an article of charge of somewhat about 500l. for the expences of creating sir Brooke Watson a baronet. He thought, if honours were heaped on a man in the situ-

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ation of the hon. baronet, it was rather extraordinary that the public should be asked to pay for them.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that as the baronetage was given that gentleman for his services in the army, it was therefore brought into the army extraordinaries, it being always usual, when that honour was conferred for services to pay the expenses. As to the emigrants, this was a charge for such emigrants only as have served in our armies, and are paid abroad in order to save the expense of coming to this country. This was absolutely necessary, when foreigners, who had served us, had no other means of gaining a livelihood in this country, and the army extraordinaries were the most convenient head of service under which they could be classed.—The resolutions were then read, and severally agreed to.

IRISH SILVER TOKENS BILL.
—On the question for going into a committee on the Irish Silver Tokens bill;
Mr. Magensrequested the attention of the house while he made a few observations on this bill, which, he thought, would be as properly made in this as in any other stage of it. He observed, that in a conversation which passed in that house, some short time since, it appeared that the rate of exchange being so much against Ireland was in consequence of the very large quantity of paper that was in circulation in that part of the empire. These tokens, as they were called, were, in his opinion, very little, if at all, better than paper; and as they would be subject to great depreciation, he saw very little benefit to be derived from this measure. He thought the only way to serve Ireland effectually would be to restore a real silver coinage directly under the royal authority, and thereby to assimilate the coinages of the two countries as nearly as possible. For these reasons he could not approve the bill.
Mr. Princepsaid, he thought some limitation should be put to these tokens, and hoped a standard coinage would soon take place.
Mr. Rosesaid, the silver tokens were tokens above the value of the price of dollars, and therefore he thought there was no fear of the apprehensions entertained by the hon. gent. who spoke last but one. It had been for a long time in contemplation to .make a standard coinage, but there were certain obstacles to it which at present could not be removed.
Mr. Magenssaid, if the old standard were
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restored, every thing would be much cheaper, and the country would derive innume rable benefits from it.
Sir J. Newportsaid it was much to be wished that the old standard was restored, but that would require some considerable time; and, as a large quantity of paper had been lately taken out of circulation, it became absolutely necessary something of this kind should be adopted. With respect to the assimilation of the coinage of the two countries, it was a subject that required great consideration, and therefore necessary this bill should pass as speedily as possible.
Mr. Leesaid the hon. member who made the objection to this bill, most certainly was not acquainted with the situation of Ireland, or he would not argue as he had done. Silver notes, which were the only circulation for making payment of small sums, were now drawn out of circulation, and it was necessary something should be substituted in their stead, as there is now no circulating medium for small payments. He was, however, one of those who did not think the quantity of paper that had been in circulation was injurious to Ireland; the fact had never been proved, and till it was so, he should differ from those who held that opinion.
Mr. Fostersaid very little remained for him to say on the subject. There was at present great distress in Ireland for want of small silver change, and as it is only to continue so long as the restriction of the bank from paying in specie continues, the hon. gent. who made this objection, need have no great apprehension. It will be extremely convenient to the people of Ireland, and he hoped therefore the bill would have the approbation of the house.
Mr. Johnstonesaid he doubted whether these pieces of silver would continue long in circulation, as, at 5s. 5d. each, people would find an advantage of eight and a half per cent. and would send them to this country to make their payments, and thereby save so much in the rate of exchange.
Mr. Fostersaid, these tokens are to issue at 5s. 5d. but will be ten per cent. under the value of Spanish dollars, and if you add eight and a quarter, the difference of exchange, it would be nearly 19 per cent. and when exchange is very high, it would be nearly 25 per cent. ; when to these are added the inconvenience of carriage, and the wearing of the silver by friction, there would be thought very little danger of their being sent to this country.
Mr. Vansittartsaid a few words in favour of the bill, and the house went into the committee, in which the clauses were read and agreed to.—Adjourned.