Commons Sitting of 17 June 1805

MINUTES.
The Bark Preservation bill passed through a committee.—Mr. Giles brought in a bill for extending the provisions of the Bank Note Forgery Prevention bill to all parts of the united kingdom. Read a first time, to be read a second to-morrow. —Lord. W. Russell presented a petition from certain inhabitants of Camberwell,in favourof the Camberwell Water Works bill. Ordered to lie on the table. Also a petition from certain persons whose names were there unto subscribed, against the bill for making a Road under the River Thames. Referred to the committee on the bill, and he petitioners ordered to be heard by their
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counsel against the said bill.—Lord Grenville brought up the report of the committee appointed to draw up an answer to so much of the message of their lordships of Friday, as relates to the request of the house, that lord Sidmouth and earls Buckinghamshire and St. Vincent, be permitted to attend the committee on the Eleventh Report. Ordered to lie on the table.—Sir W. Scott, pursuant to notice, moved for and obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend an act of the 1st of Geo I. for augmenting the maintenance of the Poor Clergy.—Mr. Tierney moved the order of the day for the further consideration of the report on the Camberwell Water Works bill. He stated at some length the grounds upon which the measure was founded, and the motives that had induced him to call the attention of the house so often and so particularly to it. He concluded by moving, that the bill be re-committed. The motion was opposed by Mr. Fonblanque. A short conversation succeeded, in which sir G. Hill, lord W. Russell, and Mr. Rose, took a part, when a division took place for the re-commitment 41, against it 16, majority 25.—Colonel Crauford expressed some unwillingness to delay any further his intended motion on the State of the Army; but as many of the papers would not be ready early enough for to-morrow, and there was no other day open this week, he felt himself under the necessity of putting it off till Monday.—Mr. Sturgess Bourne gave notice, that his right hon. friend, now absent (the chancellor of the exchequer), intended to make a motion in the committee of Ways and Means on Wednesday, for the appropriation of the surplus of the Consolidated Fund on the 5th of April last.—Mr. Grey said, there would be five millions to be appropriated for the surplus of the Consolidated Fund of this year, unless it was applied to the purposes of continental subsidy. He wished to know whether the notice had any relation to this? Mr. S. Bourne said, his notice related only to the surplus of the last year.—The Prize bill, and the Commissioners of Taxes bill was read a third time and passed. The Corn Laws Amendment bill was read a second time. The Land-Tax Redemption Regulation bill, and the Irish Civil List bill were read a second time and ordered to be committed for to-morrow.

IRISH COMMISSIONERS OF COMPENSATIONS.
Sir John Newport offered to the house some observations on the motion of which he had given notice respecting two boards of commissioners at present sitting

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in Ireland; the one appointed by the acts of the 38th, 39th, and 40th of his majesty, for examining the claims of the loyalists who suffered during the rebellion of 1798, and the other for investigating the cases of those who claimed compensation in consequence of the union. With respect to the former commission, he contended, that the object for which they were appointed had been completed; the claims of those who suffered had been investigated and decided upon, and therefore the public ought to be relieved from the expense of paying the commissioners. He should therefore submit a resolution to that effect. The other board, for investigating the claims of those who had suffered by the union, had also had ample time to finish their labours; they had so little business before them for some time past, that they only sat on Saturdays, instead of sitting from day to day. It was true, that great numbers of claims had been laid before them for their consideration, but some of them were of so ridiculous a nature as not to have deserved attention; such, for instance, as that of Mr. Fox, ratcatcher to the board of ordnance, who claimed to be indemnified for lossess sustained by the union. He would not, however, at present propose to put an end to that commission, but he thought some time should be fixed within which they ought to decide upon all the claims before them. He concluded with moving, with respect to the former board, "That it is the opinion of this house, that the objects for which a board of commissioners in Ireland were constituted by the 38th, the 39th, and the 40th of his majesty, that is to say, to hear and determine the claims of compensation due to loyalists suffering in the rebellion of 1798, under a final provision that no claim for compensation should be received after the first day of November 1800, are or ought to have been long since effected, and that the longer continuance of that board, by rendering a further provision for their salaries necessary, would occasion a considerable and useless expenditure of public money."
Mr. Vansitlart said, he unfortunately was not in the house when the hon. baronet gave notice of his motion, and therefore did not know the day on which it was to be brought forward. He begged leave to state a few circumstances, which, he had no doubt, would convince the house that the Irish government were not inattentive to economy, nor desirous to continue these boards after their labours were completed.
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With respect to the board for compensating loyalists, he must entirely exculpate the Irish government, and take whatever blame belonged to it on himself, because his predecessor had prepared a bill to put an end to that board before he went out of office. The right hon. gent. said, that his attention having been called to other objects, he had not yet brought it in; but it would speedily be submitted to the house; and he trusted this would be satisfactory to the hon. baronet. With respect to the other board, it appeared that there were claims now before them, some of which were of a recent date, there-for he was not prepared at present to fix the time of their duration; but he admitted that a time ought to be fixed, beyond which no further claims ought to be admitted, and that the board ought to report as soon as possible, and be put an end to. If the hon. baronet would renew his motion on a future day, he hoped that the hon. baronet would find every thing had been done that he could require. Having said thus much, he was anxious that a motion which implied a censure upon the Irish government should not pass. He therefore moved the previous question.
Mr. Ponsonby expressed his satisfaction at what had fallen from the right hon. gent., but hoped that the commissioners would in future sit from day to day.
Sir J. Newport said, after what had fallen from the right hon. gent. he would not press his first motion. With respect to the other board, he thought they ought now to limit the time within which they ought to report upon all the claims, and he hoped that the right hon. gent. would not think six months too short a period.
Mr. Vansittart said, that he had already stated that with respect to the commissioners for suffering loyalists, he meant immediately to submit a motion to the house. With regard to the board he hoped in a short time to receive orders from Ireland which would enable him to lay some proposition before the house.—The previous question was then agreed to.
Sir John Newport then moved his second resolution, viz.: "That it is the opinion of this house, that the board of commissioners in Ireland, constituted by the 40th of his majesty, for granting allowances to bodies corporate, and individuals, in respect to representative franchises extinguished by the union, and to make compensation to those persons whose offices may thereby be discontinued or diminished in value, ought

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within the space of six months from this period, finally to adjudge and determine all such claims as now remain not disposed of, and should be then dissolved, as their longer continuance beyond such period, by rendering necessary a further provision for their salaries and expenses, would occasion a useless expenditure of public money.
Mr. Corry defended the conduct of the Irish government, but at the same time expressed his opinion that these boards ought to cease. With regard to the absurdity of some claims, that was not the fault of the commissioners: they were bound to investigate every claim that was brought before them.—The previous question was moved and carried upon this resolution.

MIDDLESEX ELECTION.
Mr. Creevey rose to move the house to fix a day for the exchange of lists of disputed votes between the petitioning freeholders of Middlesex and Mr. Mainwaring. He argued that the petitioning freeholders stood precisely in the situation, and were entitled to all the rights of the candidate who had declined to prosecute the claims. This, he said, was the intention of the act, the object of which was to prevent collusion between the candidates, to the prejudice of the freeholders. He would propose to fix the exchange of the lists for Thursday or Friday, and the consideration of the petition for some day in the next week.
Mr. H. Thornton doubted whether the petitioners were entitled to all the rights that were claimed for them. If they were entitled to come into the place of the candidate, the equity of the case seemed to require that they should come in rather to the situation in which the candidate stood at the time of giving in his declaration of his intention of withdrawing, than to his situation at the time of the presentation of the petition. If collusion was spoken of, he saw more reason, in this instance, to apprehend collusion between the withdrawing candidate and these petitioners, than between the two candidates. Six of the principal petitioners were committee-men of sir Francis Burdett, and the agents were the same that had acted for sir Francis. Mr. Mainwaring had delivered his list to the agents of sir Francis, and sir Francis, on his part, had caused no list to be delivered. Under these circumstances it was evident the petitioners would have an advantage. He conceived, therefore, that a substitution to the extent of the pecuniary rights of the candidate, would only tend to
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the extension of that delay which had already kept Middlesex three years unrepresented. He could not, therefore, consent to any long delay now, lest it should prevent the decision from taking place within the present session.
Mr. Creevey allowed there were appearances of collusion in the circumstances adverted to by the hon. gent. He thought that some delay should be granted, from a regard to the general provisions of the act, and the general provisions of the act, and the general rights of petitioners under it; but he was ready to admit that delay should be very little in this case.
The Attorney-General agreed in the reasonableness of the arguments of the hon. gent. who spoke last, and the fairness of his admissions. He proposed the exchange of the lists to take place on Wednesday, and the ballot on Friday.—A long conversation ensued, in which Mr. Fox stated that he thought that too short a time. Mr. Mellish represented the advantage given in by Mr. Mainwaring in the notification of the oaths he meant to object to, without receiving any information from the opposite party in return. Mr. Fox considered that the petitioners, if treated bona fide as such, were not bound by any thing done by either of the other parties.—Mr. Sturges Bourne thought the petitioners not entitled to any indulgence of time, as they had held back their petition to the very last moment of the time allowed them by parliament to present it.—Mr. Fox could not admit, that when a certain time was allowed by parliament for any purpose, those to whom it was granted were liable to answer for having availed themselves of it to the full extent. Mr. Mainwaring, the elder, had delayed to the last day on which he could have presented his petition, and nobody arraigned him on that account.—Mr. Wilberforce offered a few observations. The ballot was fixed for Friday, and the exchange of lists for Thursday.—Adjourned.