Commons Sitting of 3 June 1805

MINUTES.
Mr. Calcraftpresented a petition from the noblemen, gentleman, and freeholders of the county of Kent, on the subject of the Tenth Report of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry. Ordered to lie on the table.—The Dublin Paving Bill, the Spanish Red Wine Duty bill, the Pilchard Fishery Bounty bill, the Townleian Collection, the Straw plat and Hats duty bill, the Camberwell Water Works' Bill, the Irish Infirmary bill, the Thames Tunnel bill, and Judge Fox's Proceedings bill, were severally read a third time and passed.—The Chelsea Bay bill, the Irish Military Survey bill, the Irish Loan Amendment bill, the Sugar Drawback bill, the Glass Duty bill, and the Linen Duty bill, passed each through a committee; to be reported to-morrow.—The committee on the Irish Paper Duty bill, the Irish Fire Hearth bill, the Irish Distillery bill, were read a second time; to be committed to-morrow.—Mr. Hawthorn brought up the Report of the Padington Canal bill; to be read a third time to-morrow.—Mr. Bankes brought up the Report of the Committee on the Petition of the Trustees of the British Museum, relative to Grant of Public Money for the erection
724
of a Building to preserve the Townleian Collection.—The Returns respecting Grand Jury Presentments in Ireland, presented on the 26th of June last, were, on the motion of Mr. Elliott, ordered to be printed.—On the motion of admiral Markham, the several Accounts presented on the 7th and 28th of June, and on Monday last, relative to the Navy, were ordered to be printed.—A message from the lords informed the house, that their lordships had agreed to the St. Pancras Poor bill, and desired the house would communicate to their lordships the evidence on which they had passed the duke of Atholl's Annuity bill. On the motion of Mr. Dundas, it was ordered that the answer of the house be sent by messengers of its own.—The Attorney General moved, that the consideration of the Lords Amendments to the Stipendiary Curates bill be postponed till to-morrow. At the same time he felt it his duty to state, that some of them appeared to him to be of such a nature as the house could not entertain. He then gave notice, that he should tomorrow move for leave to bring in a bill that might obviate this difficulty.—Sir C. Price presented a petition from the merchants and ship owners of the city of London concerned in the Whale Fishery in favour of the Greenland Whale Fishery bill, and against the prayer of Mr. Greville's. petition. Ordered to lie on the table.

NAVAL ADMINISTRATION OF EARL ST. VINCENT.
Admiral Markhamin consequence of the discussion that had taken place on Monday, and the explanation that an hon. member (Mr. Jeffery) had given of the tendency of the motion which it was his intention to bring forward next session, on the subject of the administration of the navy, felt it his duty to move for a number of papers, which, in order to save the time of the house, he should omit enumerating, leaving them to be severally put from the chair. The first was, "that there be laid before the house copies of all directions issued by the admiralty to the navy board, respecting the repairs of his majesty's ships, from the 1st of October,1801, to March, 1803;" the second, "copies of all directions from the admiralty to the navy board, on the subject of working shipwrights, from the 1st of October, 1801, to April, 1803;" the third, "copies of all directions from the admiralty to the navy board, on the subject of working shipwrights, from 1783 to 1786." These papers were ordered, and several others, without any comment. But on the question, that there be laid before the house an account of the expence of building and

725
repairing of the Vesta, Pallas, and Narcissus, built at Plymouth, &c.
Mr. W. Dickinson rosenot for the purpose of objecting to the motion, but to show to the house of commons the difficulty of procuring such information as that called for by the motion of the hon. admiral. For this purpose he should take the liberty of reading an extract of a letter from the navy board to the secretary of the admiralty, on the subject of some accounts on a former night moved for by the hon. admiral. The letter stated, that every effort had been made to comply with the orders of the house; that some of the accounts were prepared; others would in a few days be ready; but that a part of the accounts could not be made out in many months; though the several clerks were employed in preparing them during extra hours. These accounts were those moved for by the hon. admiral, respecting the amount of the original contracts, and of the annual expence of repairs of certain of his majesty's ships. He stated this not with a view to put any impediment in the way of the production of the papers moved for, but to prove to the house the difficulty of complying with such orders, and the expence that would accrue to the public therefrom.
Admiral Markhamreplied, that the accounts on which the hon. gent. had commented, related to the original price, and the amount of expence of annual repairs of his majesty's ships, which accounts were already in the navy office, in a book called the Doomsday book. This book was now at the navy office. When he was a member of the board of admiralty, they had the book at that board. In this book were entered the original price, and the subsequent amount of repairs of each vessel. If the navy board were so lax in keeping their accounts, they were very reprehensible, and the more so, because quarterly accounts were transmitted from each of the dock yards, respecting the whole expence of repairs, and for timber therein. He stated what he knew to be the fact, and if the navy board on receiving these quarterly statements neglected to carry them on to account, they must have been very inattentive to their duty.
Mr. Jefferyby no means objected to the production of this or any other paper which the hon. admiral might think proper to move for. He should say, however, that of all the papers which the hon. admiral had yet moved for, only two or three were relevant to the charge which he meant to bring forward. The letter which his hon. friend had just read, was a proof to the house
726
of the mode and manner in which the hon. admiral moved for papers; not one of the papers for which he had moved himself was of such a nature as not to be produced in ten days. As to the papers that had been last moved for by the hon. admiral, he could assure the house, upon the fullest investigation, that it was impossible, from the vast multiplicity of transactions which they comprehended, that any account could be produced, in any reasonable time, without material inconvenience to the public service. He hoped the hon. admiral would now move for all the papers which might be necessary to his case. As to himself, he should not look upon himself as bound to confine his charges to the heads which he had already stated. They should extend to a far greater length, and embrace the whole conduct of earl St. Vincent, during his administration of the admiralty, the system of terror which he continued throughout—.
The Speakerhere called the hon. gent. to order, as entering into a discussion not immediately arising out of the question before the house
Mr. Jefferywished only to explain the extent to which his motion might go, in compliance with what he understood to be the desire of the gentlemen opposite. He was anxious that it should not be understood that his motion was to be confined to the heads he had stated on a former day.
Mr. TierneyWas so well aware of the consequence of putting any question to the hon. member, that he was not disposed to trouble the house any more on that head. He had found that questions would not lead to any direct answer, though they produced harsh language on the part of that hon. gentleman. The hon. member, no doubt, however undecided he might be at present, might during the summer make up his mind as to the course he should take, or regulate his future conduct, according to the suggestions of any person who might recommend to him any system of harsh proceedings. Without meaning any offence to the hon. gentleman. (Mr. Jeffery), he thought he could more safely rely on the authority of his hon. friend (Admiral Markham), as to the relevancy of the papers for which he moved; and, therefore should not reply to the hon. gentleman's observations on that head. He could not, however, but advert to the insinuations thrown out by his hon. friend opposite (Mr, Dickinson), as to the difficulty of making out the accounts; and he appealed to the house, whether, when a grave charge was brought against lord St. Vincent, such

727
a consideration should deprive him of the benefit of papers which he thought essential to his case? He was not sufficiently acquainted with the nature of the papers now moved to judge, but from all he had seen of those already ordered, he could assert, that every one of them was material with a view to the motion proposed to be brought forward relative to lord St. Vincent; and this, notwithstanding the confident assertion of the hon. gent. (Mr. Jeffery) opposite, when the question should come to be discussed. If there was difficulty in preparing the accounts it was not chargeable on his hon. friend. The question had not been brought forward by him, and for himself he deprecated it, Why did not the hon. member, if he thought his conduct deserved it, impeach lord St. Vincent? When he asked the hon. member the preceding day, (and he did not know how far it would be correct in him to state the substance of a private communication,) what proceeding he meant to adopt, he was told that he did not distinctly know; that he wished to make a statement on the subject, and if it was only on the last day of the session, that he would he satisfied. As to what the hon. member had stated respecting the reign of terror, the house would be the judge how far these observations applied to lord St. Vincent. The object proposed in moving for the papers was to prove the question whether or not lord St. Vincent had been guilty of neglect in the administration of the navy.
Mr. Jefferyhere called the hon. member to order. He had himself been stopped when proceeding to state the extent to which his motion might go, which he was doing in compliance with the desire of the hon. gent. opposite, as being out of order, and he could not conceive it orderly for the right hon. gent. to discuss the merits of the case, as he appeared willing to do. The hon. gent. here fell into the same line of observation as before, when
The Speakerreminded the hon. member, that by such observations he was not defending the order of the proceedings. The conversation was irregular, but it was the hon. member himself who had first been disorderly.
Mr. Tierneysaid, he was only proceeding to state the grounds upon which the papers were moved for, as he understood the difficulty of making out the accounts to have been urged as a species of objection to the motion. The view of his hon. friend in moving for them was to shew, by a comparative statement, whether or not lord St. Vin-
728
cent was guilty of any neglect whilst in office.
The Secretary at Warhere rose to order. The papers were not refused, and he saw no use in the right hon. gentleman's proceeding with his observations, which must lead to discussion.
Mr. Tierneywas happy that the right hon. gent. was not disposed to resist the production of the papers with the weight of his great influence. But though that right hon. gent. felt no objection, he should recollect that another gentleman (Mr. Dickinson) high in office as himself, and entitled to as much consideration, had stated the difficulty of preparing the accounts as an objection to the production.
Mr. Jefferyagain to order, saw no necessity for continuing the discussion, as no disposition was shewn to refuse the papers moved for.
The SpeakerWhat shall or shall not be refused, will be decided by the vote of the house.
Admiral Markhamhoped it would not be disorderly in him to assure the house, that all the papers he had moved for were necessary to the motion.—The several motions of the hon. admiral were then successively agreed to.

TROTTER'S INDEMNITY BILL.
Mr. Whitbreadmoved the second reading of, Trotter's Indemnity bill.
Mr. Alexanderdesired to know, whether it was intended by the bill to grant indemnity to these from all the consequences of the confessions they might be forced to make?
Mr. Whitbreadreplied, that the bill was not to force any confessions, but merely to protect the parties giving testimony from any criminal prosecutions, and not from civil actions.
Mr. Alexandergave notice of his intention to state his sentiments respecting the bill to-morrow, on the question 'that the Speaker do leave the chair,' previous to going into the committee.
Mr. Whitbreadtrusted the hon. gent. would not object to the bill being committed this day, as it was material that it should pass without any delay. The hon. member would have an opportunity of stating his sentiments on the third reading.—The bill was then read a second time, passed through the committee, was reported, and ordered to be read a third time to morrow.

CONDUCT OF SIR HOME POPHAM.
Sir William Burroughsgave notice, that on Monday next he should move certain resolutions, founded on the report of the commit-

729
tee on the conduct of Sir Home Popham. His object, in moving these resolutions, was, to obtain, on the part of the house, for that gallant officer, the same acquittal from any imputation on his honour and integrity, which he had already by the report of the committee. There were various other topics on which the committee had reported, which it was not his intention to bring into discussion this session. It would be for the house to determine next session how far it might be desirable to take these topics into consideration.

SOUTHERN WHALE FISHERY BILL.
Mr. Rosemoved the order of the day for taking into further consideration the report on the Southern Whale Fishery bill; which being read, he said there was a clause proposed to be added, to which he understood there were many weighty objections, as it related to the revenue, and was of the utmost importance. In consequence of the absence of his right hon. friend, the chancellor of the exchequer, he proposed, therefore, to postpone the further consideration till tomorrow.
Mr. Barhamobjected to this delay. He said, he had asked the right hon. gent. who spoke last, when this business was to be peremptorily brought on, and he told him today. Many gentlemen had therefore come down at very considerable inconvenience in order to attend it, and there was at present a fuller attendance than could be expected again during the session. He had come on purpose himself, and it would be very inconvenient to him to attend to-morrow. He hoped, therefore, the house would proceed.
Mr. S. Bournesaid, that in addition to the reasons given by his right hon. friend (Mr. Rose,) there was one he thought would weigh with the house. As this was a subject which very materially concerned the revenue, the absence of his right hon. friend the chancellor of the exchequer would, he hoped, induce the house to agree to postpone it till to-morrow.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, the subject had been very fully argued in former stages of the bill, and he saw no reason why the chancellor of the exchequer should necessarily be present now; however, if the right hon. gent. was ill, he would not oppose the delay.
Mr. William Smithsaid, he should be sorry to press a question under Such circumstances; but he saw no reason why the right hon. gentleman's presence was necessary.
Sir. Charles Pricethought the bill of the highest importance, and that it was only a
730
compliment due to the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer to defer it.
Lord H. Pettyexpressed himself decidedly against delay.
Mr. Huskissonassured the house that the cause which prevented the chancellor of the exchequer from attending the day before yesterday still existed, and that was indisposition.
Mr. Gilessaid, the only question was, whether five ships, belonging to foreigners, should be received without paying alien duties, and it was ridiculous to suppose the house could not determine such a point without the presence of the chancellor of the exchequer.
Mr. Rosesaid, they had lately heard talk of jobs in that house; this clause would, he believed, turn out a job to deprive the revenue of a 21,000l. and upwards, and it would give a preference to foreign ships, built at less expence, victualled at less expence, and subject to no insurance, over those of our own country.
Sir W. Curtisthought the bill of the highest importance, and that it should be postponed in order to have the benefit of the great talents of the right hon. gent. now absent.
Mr. Windhamsaid, that so near as they were to the close of the session, a full attendance was a most desirable thing, in all matters of importance. As he did not think there would be a fuller attendance than the present, if there was no other objection than the absence of the chancellor of the exchequer, he saw no reason for deferring it.
Mr. Alexandersaid a few words in favour, of postponement; when the question being called for; a division took place. Ayes, 38; noes, 29; majority, 9. The further consideration was of course postponed till to-morrow.—Adjourned.