Commons Sitting of 19 February 1805

MINUTES.
At four o'clock a ballot took place for a committee to try and determine the merits of the petition of certain electors of Middlesex, complaining of the conduct of the sheriffs, in erasing their names from the poll lists, and praying to have them added again to the poll, their right of voting having been fully admitted on investigation on the last day of the election. The following are the names of the gentlemen composing the committee: R. Sharp Ainsley, esq.; Sir William Middleton, bart.; Ld. Viscount Fitzharris; J. Spencer Smith, esq.; Lord Viscount Marsham; Sir R. Peele, bart.; Charles Duncombe, esq.; J. Hamlyn Williams, esq.; Charles Mordaunt, esq.; David Clephaue, esq.; C. M. Ormsby, esq.; Hon. Archibald Acheson; A. H. Eyre, esq.— Nominees: Hon. St. Andrew St. John; Francis Gregor, esq.—Mr. Sturges Bourne presented an account of the quantity of hops grown in Kent and elsewhere during the 4 last years, pursuant to an order of the house; and a person from the excise presented an account of the duties paid thereon. Both accounts were ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Giles moved, that there be laid before the house, an account of the number of effective men that had been added to the force now serving in Great Britain and Ireland, from the 1st of June, 1804, to the 1st of Jan. 1S05, distinguishing cavalry, infantry, and artillery; and also distinguishing how raised, in what levies, and on what terms. Ordered.—Mr. Brooke, pursuant to notice, moved, that there be laid before the house, an account of the number of Spanish: prisoners now in. this country, distinguishing those who had been taken previous to the declaration of war by Great Britain, on the 12th of Dee. 1804; also distinguishing those who were passengers, and those who were officers or privates in the army or navy of Spain; also, that there be laid be-
560
fore the house, a copy of arty orders that bad been issued respecting the restitution of private property to any Spanish prisoners now in this country. Both motions were agreed to.

IRISH HASBEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL.
Sir Evan Nepeanmoved the order of the day for the 3d reading of the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension bill.
Mr. R. Martin (of Galway)rose and stated, that it was his intention to propose an amendment. Understanding that the principal ground for passing the bill, without instituting a previous inquiry, was the notoriety that a treasonable disposition existed in certain parts of Ireland, he trusted that he should have the support of those who maintained that such notoriety existed, in the amendment he should propose. To be consistent with themselves they could not withhold their assent to his proposition, which would go directly to the asserting of what they had invariably stated as the true grounds for the suspension.
The Speakerinterrupted the hon. gent. and stated, that the practice of the house was first to read the bill, previous to offering any amendment.
Lord Henry Pettysaid, he did not vise to occupy the attention of the house any farther, than by adverting to a precedent for a similar proceeding, quoted by an hon. and learned gent. (Mr. Ward) on a former evening, when he said, that the Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended in 1722, without any inquiry respecting the existence of any necessity for it having been instituted by parliament. Having since had time to examine into the grounds of that assertion, he thought it right to shew, though he did not see the hon. and learned gent, then in his place, that the two cases bore no analogy whatever to each other. At that time at least two-thirds of the king's speech were employed in pointing out the necessity there was for the house adopting such a measure. Even then, after considerable discussion upon the subject, there was,-he believed, the largest minority against it that was ever known in that house. And it was not finally agreed to, until sir R. Walpole, then one of his majesty's principal confidential ministers, had pledged himself that be would shortly lay such facts before parliament as would most fully justify him in having proposed such a measure. The disclosure of these facts, which took place

561
place in 2 or 3 months afterwards, certainly did bear him out in. the assertion which he had made. But now, where can the analogy be found? There is not a single word upon the subject in the speech from the throne. Can the hon. and learned gent. opposite declare, that he finds the analogy in what now exists in Ireland, or in what is likely to exist? If he does, that is an Argument for the inquiry, and not against it, as the house would then know upon what grounds they acceded to this extraordinary proposition, at a time when the necessity of the case is so far from being notorious, that every one of those gentlemen most intimately connected with that part of the kingdom, have declared, that, as far as their own knowledge could extend, the country was1 completely tranquil, and was as well disposed towards his majesty's govt. as any county in England. Until some inquiry was made, or until some pledge was given that a statement, similar to that which sir Robert Walpole had promised, and afterwards made to the house, should be given in the present instance, he could not, consistently with his duty, in the face of such a precedent, agree to the passing of this bill.—After the bill had been read a third time,
Mr. R. Martinstated, that it was his intention to embody in the bill the reasons which had been given for passing it. The measure would not be operative in. its effects, unless it were general, and applicable to every part of the united kingdom. As the law stood now, and as it would stand under this bill, persons may come from Ireland to this country, and carry on their machinations with safety against the constitution of that part of the union, To counteract this, he submitted to his majesty's govt. whether it would not be advisable to extend the salutary operation of the bill before them, to Great Britain as well as Ireland. How could the two countries be said to be identified, if martial law was to be established, and the Habeas Corpus Act suspended in one and not in the other? If it was not necessary that the two countries should be identified, he could, conceive no measure so well calculated to give it proof, as the bill-before them. For the purpose of making out sortie sort of justification of the measure, and of affording some supporters of the bill a plausible ground for the vote they, should give, he would propose, that, the preamble of the bill should commence
562
with these words: "whereas it is notorious that traitorous conspiracies are carried on between wicked and disaffected persons in Ireland, and persons resident in France." —The amendment was put and negatived without a division; the bill was read a third time, passed, and ordered to be sent to the lords.

REPORT OF THE BUDGET.
Mr. Alexanderbrought up the report of the committee of ways and means of yesterday. Several resolutions were read and agreed to without any discussion. Upon the resolution being read, which goes to state the agreement of the house to the levy of an additional 25 per cent, on the property tax,
Mr. Foxrose, and requested, some explanation of the nature of the exemption from the property tax, allowed, to the holders of the loan. He did not altogether understand it as it was formerly stated.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that it was not strictly an exemption, but a forbearance for a time, till the instalments should he paid up. When the loan was converted into stock, and the first dividend was paid, then it would of course become subject to the tax as well as other property.
Mr. Johnstoneexpressed his regret to see so little disposition in the house to examine closely into the subject of these resolutions, which was of so important a nature, that he should not feel that he did his duty, if he passed it over in silence. The house, he was sorry to say, was not put in a state to judge so accurately on the subject as it ought to have been. Certain accounts had been ordered by act of parliament to be annually laid before the house. It was true, that they were not in strictness required to be laid on the table previous to the 25th of March; but since the budget had been brought forward so early this session, it might have been expected that the accounts deluded to should, have been presented in time sufficient to enable the house to examine the subject with the requisite degree of information. We wanted an account of the public income and an account of the disbursements. The distribution paper ought also to have been presented sooner, with an account of the consolidated fund, A confusion also arose from its being stated that the expenditure would be 44 millions, and provision was made only for 35 millions. Then, there was a million for the East India Company.

563
He assented to that sum. But he did it for reasons of his own, arid not for those alleged on the other side. The East India Company had engaged to pay 500,000l. annually to the public; and instead of that, this was the second time that they called upon the public to pay money to them. Notwithstanding this, it was contended on the other side, that the East India Company was in a flourishing condition, and we had recorded this by our vote, He hoped the subject would be at another period more fully investigated. There was also another resolution to which he was by no means inclined to give his assent. It was that which went to give 5 millions for subsidies to the continental powers. He trusted that no one would think that he contended that this island should keep aloof from continental connexion. The man did not deserve a seat in that house who could wish this island to be insulated in its interests and connexions, from the powers on the Continent, or who would not be desirous of contributing all in his power to diminish the preponderating influence of France upon the greater part of Europe, which he could not consider otherwise than as one family. He would therefore, chearfully grant any sum, which was likely to be applied with any effect to the diminution of the enormous power of the enemy; but, before he voted such a sum as this, he should expect to sec some prospect of accomplishing his object, by the co-operation of those powers bordering on France, such as Austria and Prussia; but, without this aid, he could anticipate very little effect from powers so remote from it as Russia and Sweden To expect a reduction of the power of France, by means of such allies, would be as wild and romantic As the. measures said to be taken by some of the agents of England, who attempted to accomplish their purpose by the force of two bottles of sympathetic ink, and the sum of 500 guineas—.He also had great objections to the duty on salt. This house had voted, about four years ago, that it was highly impolitic to tax that commodity. It was strange now that it was proposed to tax it doubly. This he supposed was the difference between a weak and inefficient administration, and a strong and vigorous one. Another objectionable tax was that on horses used for husbandry. The right hon. gent, had lately given his assent to a bill which had for its object to courage
564
agriculture, and now he came forward with a resolution of this nature! Two years ago, when the war had commenced, the house had been pompously told, that the war would be carried on by 12 million of war taxes, without borrowing a larger sum than was annually reduced by the sinking fund. He, on the contrary, had stated, that the expenditure would amount to 42 millions, when our force was carried to its utmost extent, and that we should be compelled, to borrow 23 millions. The result now was, that our whole expenditure this year was upwards Of 49 millions, and amounted to 44 millions independently of the subsidy, and that the loan, in place of 7 millions, was 22½ millions for England, and 2½ millions for Ireland.
Mr. Francissaid a few words upon the subject of the million which was to be paid to the East India Company. This was the second time that parliament was called on to make an advance to them of the same amount; and yet every statement which was made of their finances, declared that they were at present in the most prosperous situation, and held out the most flattering prospect of increasing wealth in future. He would not say, that nothing was now owing by government to the Company; but he could not help remarking, that the 500,0001. which they had covenanted annually to pay the public, was never stated to have been actually so paid but once. But, in fact, there was no parliamentary evidence of the existence of the debt. The house had, indeed, the word of a right hon. gent, that it was so; but that was not a parliamentary ground Upon which they had a right to dispose of the public money; and it was evident to him, that neither the former nor the present sum ought to be paid without a parliamentary inquiry, and a satisfactory proof being given to the house of the existence of the debt. If it was proved that the debt did originally, exist, the house would then have to inquire, whether or no it was liquidated, or nearly liquidated. The Company would then have to give in an account of their stock, and would be obliged to make a deduction according to the state of the account between them and the public. If the statement given in the course of last session was strictly true, and that in reality the Company's debt from the country was neatly liquidated, than the legal consequence ought to be, that the Sum now required to be advanced

565
should be deducted, in order that the debt, now so near liquidation, should be finally extinguished. He therefore, wished to know whether this sum was meant in liquidation of the former debt?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdeclared himself rather unprepared to give the hon. gent, a satisfactory answer; but he certainly did not propose to vote this sum without reserve, or without subjecting the Company to be called to an account for what may be due from its revenues to this country. The, vote now called for had no relation to, much less did it annul, any prior engagement; but both the hon. gentlemen were mistaken as to the purport off the act of 1793, which enjoined, that, after the Company should pay its dividends and expences, and have a surplus to a certain amount, then out of that surplus, it was to contribute half a million towards the general finances of the country, and be at liberty to apply the remainder to the increase of its dividends. This subject would best be referred to a future discussion, when the state of the East India) finances should be brought before them; but it surely would be allowed, that the Revenue and resources of the Company might be very prosperous, and yet, by the-intervention of two or three unexpected wars, be rendered inapplicable to the aid of the national revenue.
Mr. Johnstoneagreed, that the Company might have a just claim upon the public, but what he complained of was, that after declaring that they had a surplus of a million, instead of paying out of it what they owed to the country, the house should be called upon to discharge an old debt to them.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexplained, that the surplus so often mentioned was only stated to arise out of the territorial revenues of the Company, of which parliament had no right to claim any share, until it was brought home by investments, and all the charges on it paid. That indeed might be made the subject of a future claim; but as to the territorial revenue, parliament had no immediate right to interfere with it.

SALT DUTY BILL.
Upon the resolution being read which proposes an additional duty upon salt,
Colonel Calcraftexpressed a hope that the right hon. gentleman would reconsider that proposition. At a time when the lower order of the people were peculiarly
566
pressed on by the high price of every sort of provisions, he conceived it to be the duty of that house to consider that nothing which could be avoided should he added to the burdens which they so patiently bear. Salt was an article so generally and so necessarily used by every class of people, that an addition of 50 per cent, to the duty on that article must be severely felt by those who had already had the misfortune to feel too seriously the pressure of the times. While he was on his legs he should also notice the hardship of the tax upon horses used in husbandry being nearly doubled Person who were employed in raising the first article of necessity were entitled to some consideration. If they were not supposed to merit this consideration, the right hon. gentleman would recollect that they, like other dealers, might raise the article upon the consumer, and that the poor, who would be most likely to suffer by the operation of the additional tax on salt, would feel the pressure double by the advance which most probably would take place in the price of bread. The salt tax, however, he considered as most seriously affecting the lower order of the people, and hoped that if the right hon. gentleman could not provide a substitute for the additional tax on horses employed in husbandry, that he would endeavour to remove that now proposed to be laid on salt to some other article Which was not of such immediate necessity,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had already given the salt tax the fullest consideration, and that he should certainly persist in it, as he was certain it was not liable to the objections which the hon. gentleman who spoke last had urged against it.
Mr. Sheridandid not rise for the purpose of entering into a debate, but was called upon by the peremptory tone in which the right hon. gent, had declared-his intentions to persevere in the tax. The right hon. gent, had stated his opinion that the tax would produce more than any other he knew of with less pressure; but he could assure that right hon. gent, that no tax could operate so grievously, oppressively, and grindingly, Salt was an article of the most indispensable necessity to the poor. All their provisions of fish, pork, & c. required a considerable quantity of it, and potatoes, now so happily become a general source of food for the poor, were

567
not sufficiently nutritious without a large proportion of that article. He could not but advert to a report of die committee on the table, which, as his hon. friend had stated, declared that a diminution of the duty on salt would be beneficial to the trade, manufactures, and commerce of the country, and if the present proposed increase were to be adopted, would have the effect of entrapping the manufacturers of that article who had entered into numerous speculations. The right hen. member for Christchurch could bear evidence, that the ruined salt works at Lymington, had been renewed on the Strength of the report of that respectable committee. What would it prove, then, but a trap to engage the manufacturers in a misapplication of their capital, when by the reduction of the duty it was expected that salt might be used as a manure, if the duty should be, on the contrary, increased? The late chancellor of the exchequer, whom the right hon. gent, would not now be disposed to run down, had also sanctioned the appointment of a committee, to inquire into the propriety of reducing the duty on salt. On the whole, therefore, if the present addition should be persevered in, he thought it his duty to oppose it in every stage.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad but one word to say in reply. He was disposed to pay every respect to the, right hon. gent, to whom the hon. gent, had alluded; and he could not prove that disposition better than by adopting his conduct. The report had been made about 4 years since, when there was no war; and yet while that right hon. gent, continued a member of this house, no motion had been made for the reduction of the duty on salt, or for carrying into effect the report of the committee. He insisted, that both the hon. members who had spoken against this tax were mistaken as to its operation; for, considering how small a proportion fell on the lower orders of the people, he did not think there was a single article of general consumption that could be found better adapted to the purpose of raising a large sum of money with so little, pies-sure and inconvenience to the mass of the people.
Mr. Egertonsaid, it always gave him pain to be obliged to say any thing against the taxes proposed for raising the necessary supplies; but, as the representative of the county of Chester, he could not avoid saying that that county would feel the
568
weight and burden of this tax in a very severe and exemplary degree indeed, as there were more salt works there than in any other county; and he hoped, therefore, that if the right hon. gent, did not agree to give up the tax altogether, he would, at least, devise some means of alleviating its pressure, in regard to that particular county.
Mr. Kinnairdsaid, he had been expecting every moment to see some member from the North follow the patriotic example of the hon. gent, who had just sat down. As none of those hon. gent, however, had yet thought proper to rise, he would take the liberty of taking that duty on himself. The North in general, and the Highland* of Scotland in particular, that depended so much on their fisheries, would be considerable sufferers from this rise in the duty on an article so essential to the fisheries. The drawback he would allow removed in a considerable degree that objection; but there were many instances in which the drawback could not be easily obtained, particularly by such as employed the salt for their own use only. He contended that the exhorbitant rise of this article was every way impolitic, and believed that it would add considerably to the discontent of the lower orders, against the war in which we had engaged.
Mr. Roseargued, that the drawback was a complete answer to every objection that could be drawn from the fisheries against this measure. The additional tax, in fact, was calculated to operate rather as a bounty, as it increased the amount of the advantage the fisheries already enjoyed over others. In regard to the injury individuals might sustain from having speculated in this article without receiving any previous notice of the measure now in question, he did not think much was to be apprehend* ed. In Hampshire, the county with which he was perhaps best acquainted, he was not aware that any such speculation bad taken place, or that any Lad consequences would result from it. He denied that it was a duty, the collection of which was attended with any extraordinary charges. The charge, he stated, did not amount to above 20,000l. and that therefore the duty was collected for not more than 2 per cent. This additional duty besides, he added, would be attended with no additional charge, as the expence attending the collection of the present duty would not be increased by its rise.
Colonel Calcraftstated, in explanation, that according to the report of the committee in 1801, the collection of the salt duty was attended with an expence of 100,000l. a year. Since that period perhaps the duty might have been collected at less; but if they might trust the report of that committee, the annual charge of that duty was as he had stated it up to the period of that report.
Mr. Johnstoneallowed that the salt employed in the fisheries was free of duty, but contended that there were so many difficulties and impediments thrown in the way, that it was often difficult to get at the drawback.

HORSE DUTY BILL.
Sir Robert Buxtonopposed the tax on horses employed in husbandry; he thought it founded on impolicy, and injustice. On impolicy, because it would operate to the great detriment of a branch of our national industry, of all others the most essential to our well-being as a state; on injustice, because it would bear unequally on the subject, nay, that it would operate on only one class of people, the farmers of the kingdom. Instead of laying an additional fax of this sort, why did not gentlemen give up their privilege of franking, which would shew the people that the members of the House of Commons were ready to make sacrifices in their turn. The hon. bart. deprecated the idea of the war having excited disgust among the public. He believed there never was a war, the necessity and justice of which were more universally felt and acknowledged,
Mr. Windhamdisagreed with the hon. bart. on this point, and hoped the house did not stand so low in the estimation of the public as to be obliged to prove its disinterestedness by a paltry sacrifice of this nature, which would be of no serious importance to the revenue. In fact, this privilege of members was to themselves a mere feather in their cap; a thing that was pleasant to them, as giving them a power of conferring small favours, and; as had been before observed, was almost the only little privilege that belonged to them, as members, which was independent of the favour of ministers. But with respect to the public, this privilege was important. It occasioned a much greater intercourse between the members and their constituents than there would otherwise be, and therefore contributed to give them more information of the wishes and; true interests of the public. This was not
570
all; to his knowledge that little privilege had in many instances called forth literary talents, or kept alive correspondence that v would otherwise have died away, without any advantage to the revenue. He was sure that this had happened in many cases when he had used his privilege of franking, and he was also sure that other members could from their personal experience confirm the truth of the general observations he had made.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersupported the expediency of the privilege of franking, but not altogether for the reasons given by the right hon. gent, who spoke last. The privilege was one that afforded a very great accommodation to the public. It enabled the members to carry on the very important business of their constituents, and frequently they must have various and extensive transactions to discuss. Hence the privilege was not only a distinction, but a most useful, if hot indispensable appendage to the function of a legislator. As to the saving that could accrue from the abrogation of the privilege, that again was, in the view of the subject of revenue, the least considerable in the world; for it would not amount to more than 40,000l. a year. He did not, however, by any means wish to tax agriculture heavily; and the tax under consideration had no such tendency. No man would think that arable farms would, by this increase of seven shillings and six-pence on the tax on horses used in husbandry, be taxed so as to injure agriculture, or induce the farmer or landowner to discontinue employing all the capital he now employed in arable farms. He agreed also with the right hon. gent, that no such mark of disinterestedness was required of them by the country. The fact was, that in the whole history of parliament, there never was a time when so great a proportion of the taxes were thrown on the higher orders of the community.
Sir Robert Buxton,was ready to give the right hon. gent, every credit for the disposition he had always shewn to relieve the lower orders from the weight of the burdens of the state.
Mr. H. Lascelleshoped the right hon. gent, would take some further time to consider on some of-these taxes. He agreed with the hon. bart. who had just sat down, as to the duty on horses used in agriculture, and, that it would prove a great check to it. He-referred to what passed last session

571
en the corn bill, and begged the house to remember, that it was then held forth as necessary to encourage the farmers to grow as much corn as possible; end this lax would, he feared, operate contrary to that desirable purpose.
Mr. Fuller,in reference to the tax on property, mentioned the case of one who should have much underwood, but which would not be in a yielding state for 14 years to come; now the present tax would attach on that kind of property, he apprehended, as much as if it was at this moment vendible, or as if it yielded a profit.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that the tax would only attach on property mow convertible to its uses; so that the underwood, which would not be fit to cut these 14 years, would for that period not be liable to the tax.—The other resolutions were now put, agreed to, and bills ordered.—Adjourned.