Commons Sitting of 21 March 1804

MINUTES.—
Dr. Greypresented at the bar the account of the trustees for the Bri-
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tish Museum.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the Sugar Warehousing Bill—Also the report of the Expiring Laws' Bill.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer informed the House from the bar, that his Majesty had been Waited on with the addresses of the House of the 13th of Feb. and of the 15th of March, which his Majesty had received graciously.—A message from the Lords acquainted the House that their Lordships had agreed to the Irish Duties' Bill, the Irish Malt Duty Bill, the Irish Countervailing Duty Bill, and the Neutral Ships Bill, without any amendment.

LISKEARD ELECTION.—
Mr. W. Dundasstated to the House, that he held in his hand a petition, which was deserving the attention of the House. The petition was from William Huskisson, Esq. who had been returned by the returning officer for the borough of Liskeard, as duly elected at the last election, but who. on coming to town to take his seat, found that the under sheriff of the county of Cornwall had transmitted to the clerk of the crown the return, but accompanied with a piece of parchment, purporting to be another return of T. Sheridan, Esq. for the same borough, but which parchment was neither signed nor sealed with the arms of the borough by the returning officer. The petitioner, therefore, appealed to the justice of the House, trusting, that as but one legal return had been made, he should not be prevented from taking his seat until after the decision of a Committee. Having stated thus much, Mr. Dundas wished to abide the sense of the House as to the course he should adopt.
The Speakerinformed the hon. member, that, if the petition complained of an undue return in the usual way, it might be presented as a matter of course; but being such as the hon. member had stated, it could not be brought up without first putting the question on it.
Mr. Pittobserved, that, according to the facts, if they were truly stated, it appeared that only one valid return had been made by the sheriff, the course for the House therefore to adopt, would be to order the deputy clerk of the Crown to attend at the bar with the last return, in order to ascertain the truth of the facts. If it should appear that only one instrument bad the seal and signature of the returning officer, then unquestionably but one valid return had been made.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that feeling, as every member of the Parliament did, a strong jealousy on every question relating to elections, if any evidence was to be taken, or. witnesses examined, he

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had no hesitation in saying, that the petition should go to a committee.
The petition was then ordered to lie on the table, and the deputy clerk of the Crown was ordered to attend to-morrow with the last return for the borough of Liskeard.

NAVAL SURPLUS.—
The Chancellor of the Exchequerin a Committee of the whole House to consider of ways and means for raising a supply granted to his Majesty, said, if gentlemen would look to page 3 of the accounts of the grants for the service of the year 1803, they would find that the grants for the naval service of that year amounted to,9,951,378, the demands for the service of that department amounted to 8,174,711 the grants had, therefore, exceeded the demand by 1,776,667. This being the case, he should propone, as was the usual custom, to grant the surplus towards the ways and means for raising the supply to be granted to his Majesty for the present year, if it were not for a circumstance in the 11th page. This was, that several payments had been made for other services not belonging to the year 1803, amounting to of 579,706. These demands all made by authority of acts of Parliament, had been satisfied by the Admiralty, out of the ways and means of the year. It was usual when the vote was insufficient for the service, to move the Committee of Supply to make good the deficiency. There the grant was more than sufficient, and the surplus would of course be carried to the service of the year. The surplus was reduced by the payments here advanced to 1,370,669. It was necessary to apprize the Committee that the surplus of 1,766,000, was not to be considered as a saving in expenditure. It was not to be understood, that the expense was so much less than the sum voted. There was an increase of navy debt to the amount of, 931,352. The amount being on the 1st Dec. 1802, 3,105,648. On the 1st Dec. 1803, 4,037,000. This accumulation to the debt, was wholly unavoidable, arising from navy bills not being presented for payment, and the arrears of pay due to seamen on foreign stations, the navy debt must always be increased or diminished. All that was necessary on the part of the Treasury, was to provide the means of satisfying the demands when made, and when the demands were not made, though the Treasury should be full of money, the debt must remain undiminished. This sum of 931,352 must therefore be deducted from,1,776,667, leaving the real amount of the
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sum beyond what was necessary for the service of the last year, 845,315 As it was not necessary, however, to keep the means of satisfying such an amount or debt, the greater part of which may not be called for for several years, it was his intention to move the House to have the whole sum of 1,370,669 applied to other services, diminishing per tan to the loan, or other ways and means for the present year. He moved accordingly, that towards raising" the supply to be granted to his Majesty, there be voted 1,307,614 4s, 8d. from the surplus of the grants for the service of the year 1803.
Lord Folkestonethought it was a fallacy to suppose there was a surplus if gentlemen would look to the last page of the paper where the several sums are made up, no account had been presented this year of the produce of the consolidated fund, there was, therefore, no reason to suppose that the consolidated fund had afforded the surplus of 6,500,000 anticipated from it. On that, however, he laid no stress, as there was no proof one way or the other before the House. But with respect to the war taxes, the produce of which was estimated at 4,500,0001. it was found by an account presented six weeks since, that they had produced something less than 1,900,0001., leaving a deficiency of 2,600,0001. which would reduce the surplus now proposed to be voted to a deficit of 1,300,0001. If the 931,0001. added to the navy debt were deducted from the surplus of 1,766,0001. there would remain a sum of above 800,0001. of the grant of last year unapplied, which he thought extraordinary at a time when every exertion should be made in the naval department, and the House was intilled to expect forces equal to the amount of the sum granted. He wished, and he thought it would be more satisfactory to have the amount of the saving in each item particularly stated. The noble lord then adverted to the account of the disposition of the grants for the land service, which stated the number of regular forces at 65,574 effective men. A noble lord (Castlereagh) had stated them at near 30,000 more. He wished to know whether the noble lord included in his statement the army of reserve, or what it was that occasioned the difference of the statements. Another item was the grant of 1,500,0001. to enable his Majesty to take such measures as the exigencies of affairs may require. Of the distribution of this sum no satisfactory account was given. He thought it a fallacy after all this, to call on the House to vote a surplus.
Mr. Vansiltartstated the surplus of the consolidated fund for the year 1803, voted at 6,500,000 l. to have produced 5,000,000 l. in Jan. last. The remaining 900,000 was to be made good out of the produce exported in January, but not yet derived. With respect to the produce of the war taxes, it was not in Jan., but on the 5th of April, that they were calculated to produce 4,500,000 l. The war taxes differed from the surplus of the consolidated fund in this, that the surplus could not be taken till the accounts were made up, whereas the war taxes were derivable as they went on. In the last week there had been paid in, on account of the war taxes, 3,131,000 l. leaving 1,379,000 l. to be made good by the 5th of April. Whether it would be made good, remains to be seen. The accounts now presented were in the usual form. The balances were not expected to be stated item by item as they arose In answer lei the observation of his noble friend's (Lord Castlereagh) statement of the amount of the forces, he had only to observe, that his noble friend included in his statement other descriptions of force not included in the 66,000, but mentioned in other parts of the paper. It did not appear yet, whether there was any excess in the military department. As to the vote of credit for 1,500.000 l. there was every year an account of the application of that vote. That account would be soon made out, and laid before the House. The reason why a small part of the vote of credit, 5,000 l. remained on hand, was, that it was inapplicable to the Service of the preceding year. For the same reason there was 900,000 l. of new taxes now laying unapplied.
Mr. Johnstonewished to know, whether the saving in the naval department was owing to the economy of the present Board of Admiralty., or the consequence of fewer sea men being employed than were voted?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the saving was in a great measure owing to economy in the Admiralty, but also in a considerable degree to there not having been as great a number of seamen in the early part of the year as had been voted. Tin demands for naval service were, how ever, so extraordinary and unprecedented, that it was matter of surprise and jey (hot any saving should have been made, and that that expense did not even exceed the estimate This was the more extraordinary, as the number of seamen and marines now on board was not 1,500 short of the. number voted by Parliament He did not wish to give all the merit of the saving to economy,
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but if there had not been economy, instead of a saving Parliament would have an excess to make good.
Mr. Sturges Bournewished to know, whether there were any documents relating to the particulars of the savings?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that no such accounts had been given in the last war, and in the present instance, when the ablest financier of England (Mr. Pitt), one who combined the largest with the most minute view, was present when the accounts were referred to the committee, and made DO remark on them, there was reason to suppose they were correct.—Some further conversation ensued between Mr. Tierney, Lord Folkestone and Mr. Vansittart, in the course of which Mr. Vansittart stated, in answer to a question asked upon the subject, that the monies already paid into the Exchequer on account of the property tax, amounted to 1,260,000 l.—The motion was at length agreed to, and the House having resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow, and the committee to sit again on Friday.