Commons Sitting of 9 March 1804

MINUTES.—
The Speaker, attended by several members, having, pursuant to summons, proceeded to the House of Lords, announced on his return that the royal assent had been given by commission to the Mutiny Bill, the Royal Marine Mutiny Bill, the Irish Bank Restriction Bill, the Duke of York's Estate Bill, the Portugal Corn Indemnity Bill, the Greenland Wale Fishery Bill, the Scotch Creditor's Bill, and the London Wet Docks Bill.—Ordered, on the motion of Mr. Hiley Addington, that it be an instruction, to the committee appointed to consider the disputes between the masters, and journeymen of the cotton trade, that they do also consider of proper measures to prevent such disputes in future, and that they do report their proceedings, with their opinion, &c. to the House. It was also ordered that an account of the several proceedings, taken in
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the course of the last session upon the subject of these disputes, should be referred to the said committee.—Sir J. W. Anderson reported from the committee on Messrs. Boydell's Lottery Bill. The report, with the amendments, was agreed to, and the bill was ordered to be read a third time.—Mr. Ormsby obtained leave to bring in a bill to regulate the establishment of the parochial watch, and for other purposes in Dublin.—Sir Wm. Pulteney brought up the report of the committee appointed to consider the petition from the governor and company of the Bank of Scotland, which was agreed to. and leave was given to bring in a bill to enable the said petitioners to make a further increase of their capital stock.—On the motion of Dr. Durgenan the Irish Clergy Orders Regulation Bill was read a third time and passed.—Mr. Pitt gave notice, that he should bring forward on Thursday next, a motion relative to the naval defence of the country.

IRISH DUTIES BILL.—
Mr. Corry moved the order of the day for going into a committee on the Irish Duties Bill.
Colonel Hutchinsonsaid, it was not his intention to oppose the motion of the hon. I gent., but he could not avoid making a few I observations upon the schedule before the House. He was willing in pay every tribute to the rt. hon. gent., the Chancellor of the Exchequer of Ireland, for the candid and liberal manner in which he had conducted himself upon this occasion, but he was sorry to find that the 4 per cent, duty upon Irish exports was to be continued upon every part of the exports of Ireland. The rt. hon. gent. had himself acknowledged, on a former occasion, that the provision trade of Ireland was in a languishing condition, and he thought that was a sufficient reason why it should be exempt from the general export duty.—He then adverted to the tax upon leather, which, he said, had been kid on under an idea that it could net exceed id. per pound, but in fact it was considerably more.—The taxes on saltpetre he particularly condemned, as tending to injure the provision trade of Ireland, which was already too much on the decline; and the proposed abrogation of the drawback heretofore allowed on the exportion of foreign herrings, he was instructed to say, would be attended with serious mischief to the city of Cork, which he had the honour to represent, and which had derived a profit of not less thin 80 or 90,000 l. per ann. from that the. Independently of this loss to a particular port, he recommended to the it. hon. gem. to consider the injury that would be done to the carrying trade, by removing this encou-

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ragement to cur commerce; and also that if the drawback were set aside, our West India islands were likely to be supplied with herrings by Sweden and other powers. If these points were not attended to, he much feared that such inattention would contribute to aggravate the discontent which prevailed in Ireland, in consequence of the conduct pursued by the present ministers towards that unfortunate country, since their accession to power. This was a consideration, however, which they did not appear much to value, for instead of attempting to conciliate, to cultivate the good opinion of the Irish people, instead of conceding to their just claims, they had manifested a disposition, if that disposition could be judged of from the conduct of their ostensible and favourite agent in Ireland, to impugn the inclinations, to wound the pride, to insult the feelings, and to traduce the character of nine-tenths of the Irish people.
Mr. Kersaid, that with regard to the export tax upon linen, considering it as he did as a war tax, he should certainly not oppose it; but, he wished the right hon. gent, to advert to one circumstance, which he considered as bearing hard upon Ireland. By the articles of union, if there was a surplus of any foreign article either in Great Britain or Ireland, it might be exported to the other with a full drawback of the duty: but if a merchant in Ireland wished to export tobacco, for instance, to England, he could only do it in a vessel of a certain size; this appeared to him to be an impediment upon trade. With regard to the window tax, when it was laid on in Ireland, it was always considered as a war tax, though now it was made a permanent one.
Mr. John Latoucheadverted to the state of the exchange between Gt. Britain and Ireland, and said it was a subject that called for the immediate attention of Parliament. With regard to the schedule before the House, the rt. hon. gent, had certainly attended with the utmost candour to the representations of the merchants upon the subject, and in most instances their wishes were complied with; in others, however, they were not. There were two articles particularly upon which he thought a reduction of duty ought to take place, and they were foreign oils and foreign hops, the latter he conceived ought to be admitted' to be imported free of duty.
Sir John Newportalso expressed his thanks to the rt. hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, for the attention he bestowed upon every suggestion or objection that was made to him. But there were some
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points in which he still did not approve of this schedule. In the first place, he agreed with the hon. gent. (Col. Hutchinson,) with regard to what he had said about the importation of foreign herrings; but the subject to which he wished principally to advert, was the importation of the article of deals into Ireland. He was sorry to find there was an increased duty upon that article. The peasantry of Ireland had of late expressed a wish to have their cottages slated instead of thatched; this disposition he thought ought to be encouraged, because he knew that several villages were actually forced into the rebellion, by the threat of having their cottages burnt, which could be easily accomplished while they were covered with thatch. He therefore really hoped that this duty would not be increased.
Mr. Hawthorneapproved of the schedule in general, but wished merely to advert to the increased duty in grocers licences. He did not know upon what ground that duty had been increased, and he did not think if it was persisted in that it would be productive of any increase of revenue.
Mr. Carry,after expressing the satisfaction he felt at the approbation which had been expressed of his conduct by so many members from that part of the United Kingdom, proceeded to answer the different objections which had been made. He said that though these duties were now to be voted without limitation, they would of course be liable hereafter to revision, alteration, or repeal, and therefore he hoped that no apprehension would be entertained upon the idea that these taxes were to be voted permanently.—Another observation he wished to make was, that all the duties laid on in Ireland, to correspond with war duties laid on in this country, would of course cease as soon as the war ceased, and the duties were taken off in this country.—With regard to the provision trade of Ireland, it certainly did languish, but he hoped it was only for a time; the fact was, that the war-demand had ceased and the peace-demand had not begun, which was a reason for a temporary diminution of the trade; but he had no doubt but that war would soon revive, particularly as there was a large army maintained in Ireland and a large fleet on the coast, and-the consumption of provisions by them would at least compensate for the temporary decrease of the foreign trade.—With regard to the drawbacks on sugar, they certainly ought to be the same in both countries, and if there were any instances in which from any mistake they were not so, they would be rectified.—With respect to the leather trade, he

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did not conceive that any reduction of the duty was necessary, because it had continued to prosper, and he believed those who were engaged in it were perfectly satisfied. With regard to the duty upon the importation of foreign herrings, he could not agree will the hon. gent, that it ought to be reduced; the duty was 6s. 7d. a barrel, and under that duty the trade had increased, and he was sure it would not be denied that Parliament ought to adopt every means to encourage our own fisheries. With regard to tobacco, the reason why it could only be shipped on board vessels of certain size was, because it was necessary, in order to prevent its being smuggled into the little creeks and harbours ot Ireland in small vessels which the customhouse cutters could not follow. He then proceeded shortly to advert to the other objections which had been made to the schedule, but contended that they were not such as ought to induce the House to lower the duties.
Mr. Dawsonobserved, that the window tax, which, at the time it was laid on, was professed to be a war tax, appeared in the hill before she House among she permanent taxes. This tax the hon. member recollected, was said, at its introduction, to be pointed particularly at the disatched; for it Was remarked, that as they were not of that description of persons who would contribute to the exigencies of the state, by any tax on wine, &c. they must be made to pay for their light: and the Home would no doubt be surprised to hear, that this tax on light was much beyond the rate then levied by a similar tax in this country. The hon. member expressed his disapprobation of the tax on the export of Irish linen, which he considered to be a violation of the letter and spirit of the union; and a full confirmation of the predictions so often delivered by the adversaries of that measure, previous to its enactment; namely, that whenever the interests of the two countries should happen to come in competition, the 100 representatives for Ireland would avail very little, however well disposed towards their native country, against the 58S members who are immediately interested in the concerns of G. Britain.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdefended the measure, and said, he could not see upon what principle of justice Irish linens were to be imported free of duty, while the English linens were to pay a duty of 4 per cent.
Mr. G. Ponsonbysaw no ground for acceding to the additional tax upon Irish linen. To committee had been instituted to ascertain how far it was just or necessary. The House had nothing to proceed upon in justi-
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fication of the measure, but the assertion of the right hon. gent. As to the comparison made between the linen of Ireland and England, the fair mode of considering the question was, whether both countries were equally tit to bear the proposed tax. The reason assigned in support of this equal tax as it was termed, appeared to him to be very extraordinary indeed, viz. that it would be unfair that if Irish and English linen should be shipped in the same ship, the one should be subject to the tax, and the other exempt from it. Then, if that were to be the criterion, it seemed if those goods were carried in different ships, the complaint of inequality in taxation would disappear. The learned member recommended, for the sake of clearness, and for the satisfaction of the House, that the right hon. gent, should draw up two separate schedules, in the one of which should be classed such taxes as were meant to be permanent ones, and in the ocher the taxes which were to cease at the expiration of the war.
Mr. Alexandersaid, that it would be impossible for even England herself, with her great capital, to rival the north of Ireland in the linen trade, it was so firmly established in that article of commerce.
Mr. Fostermid, that without entering into any detail upon the subject, he wished only to state, that they were by one act vesting a perpetual revenue in the crown of millions a year. But this was not all, there was; what was called the heriditary revenue of the I crown in Ireland, which it was proposed to dispose of without any message or assent being delivered from the throne upon the subject.
Mr. Pittsaid, he certainly was not aware of the objection which had been made by the right hon. gent, who spoke last. He was not prepared now to give a'decided opinion upon the subject, but he was prepared to say, that upon such an objection coming from such a quarter, the House ought not to proceed without very maturely considering the subject. If the right hon. gent. was not mistaken in the objection he had made, if the bill now before the House went to produce that effect, and there was no message from the Crown to authorize that proceeding, it was undoubtedly a breach of the proceedings and constitution of Parliament, and one that ought not, and he hoped would not, be passed over lightly.
Mr. Carrywas about to proceed in further explanation, and to add some further arguments, when lie was interrupted by
Mr. Foster,who called him to order, saying, that by explanation he understood that

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a member of Parliament was to explain what he meant by what he had already said, and not what he was going to say.
The Speakerobserved, that if it was objected to, the right hon. gent, could not be allowed to go into arguments upon a question to which he had already spoken, without the special leave of the House.
Mr. Corrysaid, that for obvious reasons, and out of respect to the House, he should certainly confine himself to explanation, and be very short: what he had to say arose out of the observations of a right hon. gent, whom he never heard without great respect. He should, however, state how the matter stood. The civil list was granted in Ireland an the 33d of the sing, and these provisions which were now under discussion, were enacted in lieu of those duties which subsisted before that time. His Majesty having given up the receipts of his revenue, the heriditary dues to the Crown had merged during that time; but the right to them was not disturbed, but was to revive in full force at the expiration of the term for which the civil list was granted; thus it was, that from year to year the heriditary duties to the Crown remained as it were in abeyance, during the continuance of this arrangement between the Crown and the public, but would revive again after the time had expired during which the agreement was in force. This bill was formed on the model of other bills which had passed from year to year in Ireland from that time, and this only to render permanent that system which had been adopted and annually passed in Ireland. The right of the Crown necessarily revives when the period arrived by which the arrangement was at an end; nor was there the least intention to the contrary. Thus the case stood 911 constitutional principles. Now, a certain portion of these duties was granted annually, some of which were now inserted in this bill, which was proposed to be permanent, and a certain proportion was omitted in this bill, such as the land and malt, that was an annual measure yet; and with regard to the other duties, it was proposed that they should be permanent, and they were, the consolidated fund of Ireland, charged with the interests of the national debt and also the civil list of his Majesty, and that of the proportion which Ireland was to bear of its contribution it was bound to make to the public burthen by the union, as well as all the pensions and other parliamentary payments that were to be made. He was not aware there was any thing ill this bill, or that any thing would arise out of it, which would in any degree affect the heriditary revenues of the Crown,
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longer than they are already by the consent of the Crown, and by agreement between the Crown and the public had been already provided.
Mr. Fostersaid, he should also make a short explanation of what he had said, and that he should do by way of reply to what had been said by the right hon. gent. He had just said, that of forming the consolidated fund of Ireland these heriditary revenues had been given up by his Majesty, by a gracious message, desiring that Parliament might bring them to the public aid, and dispose of them as Parliament should think proper, and that in lieu of them the Crown had a civil list. Now, this agreement could only be binding on the Crown during the existence of the right in his Majesty. His Majesty had only a life interest in these hereditary revenues; but what was to be the effect of this bill? It was that of a perpetual disposal of these hereditary revenues of the Crown, not only during his Majesty's present, but also during every reign to eternity. He would ask, if that was parliamentary? He would ask, was it constitutional to divest the Crown for ever of its rights, without any consent from the Crown, without even so much as a message from the Crown? This was a point too clear to enter largely into it, and therefore he should not trespass any longer on the patience of the House.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he had not had an opportunity of reading this Bill, and he had no means of knowing what it contained: he did not apprehend it would have the effect stated by the right hon. gent. However, if the words in the bill should be found to go further than his tight hon. friend apprehended and had stated, it would be for the House to consider it, when the clause came to be read. The principle of the bill was clear; but as the interest of the Crown was concerned, it was important to take care that nothing should find its way into it by inadvertency, which might have the effect of disturbing the settlement made between the Crown and Parliament of Ireland, on the hereditary revenues and the civil list, as it took place on the 33d of the King. Now, how did it stand? The Irish Parliament, after this agreement with the Crown, provided that the duties given up to the Crown should be applied to the use of the public for one year, and continued them from year to year, until they had been made permanent since the union; for the practice of the Parliament of Ire hind was different from that of England in that respect. His right hon. friend had said, that on public grounds it was expedient that there duties should con-

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tinue in operation without a fresh arrangement every year; and this bill was only to reader permanent, duties which were voted away by the Parliament of Ireland annually, since the 33d year of the present reign; it was a principle acted upon by the Crown ever since; nor was there the least idea that its operation should continue further than daring the life of the Monarch now on the Throne; it could not affect the tights of the Crown afterwards. But (he right hon. gent. who spoke last =aid, that it would be in operation during the succeeding reigns. Now he had not read the bill., and therefore he could not say what it contained, but if it bad any provision which might so operate, that provision might be altered. The surrender of these duties, by agreement between the Crown and the Parliament was absolute during the life of his present Majesty; and it was for the Parliament to consider whether the appropriation of them should be permanent, or only from year to year. He thought that on sound principles of revenue they ought to be permanent, in order to give to the public credit better security than could attend the passing of them to the public use from year to year. He believed that his right hon. friend would be able to satisfy the jealousy of the House, that there was nothing in the bill to affect the interest of the Crown unfavourably, at least nothing that could not be altered to the satisfaction of the House in a Committee.
Mr. Rosewished to know whether there was in this bill, any specific provision to shew that the hereditary revenues of the Crown shall revert to the Crown, when that period should occur when there, was a demise of the Crown, for if there was no such provision in tin's bill, he doubted very much, whether the bill should have come into the House at all; and he was sure that if not, the House ought not to go into a Committee upon it, at least until a message came to the House, from the Crown, desiring them to proceed upon such a measure. As to the malt duty in Ireland, which was still an annual vote, he did not know the amount of it so as to be able to judge of the check which Parliament retained in that respect upon the executive government, by way of power to withhold the supplies from year to year. If the right hon. gent, could satisfy the House upon these two points he should be glad to hear him.
Mr. Corrysaid, that accounts had been kept of the hereditary revenues distinct from the others, and he was informed that the law officers in Ireland prepared a clause for
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the purpose of saving the rights of the Crown from every thing except the operation of the agreement between the Crown and the Parliament of Ireland, in the 33d of the Crown. Whether the mode which had been adopted for that purpose was such, wa3 not for him to state; he knew that that principle had always been preserved, and had understood that the provisions were adequate for that purpose. That provision had always been inserted in every revenue bill since the agreement had been entered into between the Crown and the Parliament of Ireland, and he took it for granted that every thing would be adopted by the House that was necessary for perfect clearness. This bill was clearly of the form of former bills, which contained a provision for saving the rights of the Crown. Here he read the provision out of the Statute Book in a former Act of Parliament. Mr. Foster asked if that provision was in the present bill? Mr. Corry said, he had no doubt of it: the House would consider how it was prepared. He had no doubt it was correct, though he had not had an opportunity of reading it; it was sent to him in the usual manner after it was drawn up by the law officers of the Crown. As to the amount of the duties proposed to be voted permanently, and those which were to be annual, the annual was above one-tenth of the whole.
Mr. Canningsaid, that the first question now, was not whether there was such a clause as that which was alluded to by the right hon. gent. but whether in fact, the House could do any thing further without further explanation, or whether indeed the right hon. gent, ought not to have beta ready with his explanation before he came forward with his bill? The next question was, if there was not such a clause, what the House should allow to be done upon such a gross violation of form, and such a substantial objection in principle, so essential to the constitutional practice of the House as occurred in this bill? He put it to the hon. gent, who supported this most defective bill, whether they should not think it more decorous in them to ask leave to withdraw this defective bill, and ask leave to present another less imperfect, as the best manner in which they could atone for the unconstitutional principle on which they had attempted to proceed in the House. It was now allowed on all hands that this was a gross oversight at least; and he thought that going into a Committee to endeavour to cure the defect there, would not be proper, because it would not sufficiently mark the sense of the House

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upon a proceeding so glaringly repugnant to its rules, and to one of the most important principles of the constitution.
Mr. Foxsaid, that if there was any foundation in point of fact in the objection, (he House would not cure it in a Committee, because it conk not, according to any: rule of practice or principle of the constitution, go into a Committee at all upon the bill. It was not in the legal power of the House to precede upon a bill of this kind without consent: here there was no pretence that any such consent was given. There could be no doubt whatever, that the House must negative the question, that the Speaker do now leave the chair, for the House ought to wait at least until the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who brought in the bill, knew what it contained, before they proceeded to discuss it: the right hon. gent, would hardly ask the House to wait until he himself had had an opportunity of reading it.
The Chancellor of Exchequersaid, that his hon. friend had in the course of this debate—
Mr. Fosterspoke to order, for that the right hon. gent, had already spoken upon this subject; upon which,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, I am going to make a motion, Sir., and have a right to insist on proceeding.
Mr. Fostercalled to order again, for that the right hon. gent, had spoken already in this debate,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he rose for the purpose of making a motion, and he was at liberty he said to introduce that which he was about to say. He was desirous there should be no difficulty whatever in going upon this bill, and that no one should be called upon to proceed to the discussion of this bill in a Committee, without knowing what the contents of the bill were; for that reason he should move that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House upon this bill to-morrow. If the bill was withdrawn altogether there would of course be an end of it; otherwise he should negative the of the Speaker leaving the chair, with a view to move afterwards that this bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House to-morrow.
Mr. Foxsaid, the right hon. gent, had claimed his right to be heard, on the ground that he v. as going to make a motion, the only ground on which he had any right to speak a second time in the debate; thus his claim was allowed in point of order, and yet after all in point of fact he did not make any motion, but only gave notice of a intended which he intended to make; and
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this was attended with additional irregularity; that he now negatived the question for the Speaker leaving the chair, after having once spoke for the Speaker leaving the chair. But he believed it would be of great use to some of his Majesty's ministers, and particularly to the right hon. gent., if they could change the rules of she House so that they might not only change their minds, but be allowed to deliver two opposite opinions in one night, upon one question in a debate.
Mr. Ormsbysaid, that he believed this bill was precisely on the same principle and condition as bills which had formerly passed upon the subject of these duties. He did not feel himself warranted to speak 6n this bill, not having read it since it was introduced into the House: all he knew was, that the subject to which it referred, was under discussion in Ireland, among the law officers of the crown, of whom he had the honour to be one. He knew the discussion had been the subject of the King's hereditary revenue; perhaps he might be out of order in stirring what he was about to state, but lie withed to draw the attention oft the House to it. He then read the clause which had been inserted in other bills upon this subject, to shew that the rights of the? crown had always been saved in them all, as far a; related to the hereditary revenues of the crown reverting after the termination of the agreement between the crown and the public, in the 33d year of the present reign. It was for the House to consider whether the words in this clause were I sufficient to save the rights of the crown 5 I he apprehended they were, and it had I been so thought by the crown lawyers in Ireland. But whether that clause wish to be found in the present bill he would not I undertake to say. The bill was in the hand writing of two or three persons, and he I took shame to himself that he had not read it since it was laid on the table of that House. All he could say was, that the bill which was considered and perused by the crown lawyers in Ireland, of which he presentable this to be a copy, had been by them deemed sufficient to preserve entire the rights of the crown.
Mr. William Ponsonbysaid, he believed this bill contained no such clause as that which had been read by the learned gent, out of another Act of Parliament. In a word, he knew of no way to proceed upon this business but that of withdrawing the present bill to make way for a better.—The question was then put, that the Speaker it now leave the chair, and negatived.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer then

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moved, that this House do to-morrow resolve itself-into a Committee of the whole House.
Mr. Pittsaid, he was extremely glad that an opportunity had been given to examine into this question; but it was matter of regret that the attention of the House had not been called to this important circumstance before any progress whatever had been made in the bill, for nothing could be more important for that House to attend to than the hereditary revenues of I the crown, and that the more especially, when the measure brought forward was without the consent of the crown, and without an opportunity of discussing the contend of the bill. He was very far from pledging himself as to the opinion lie should have or this occasion; but I after what he had heard from the hon. gentleman below him (Mr. Ormsby), he had great doubts indeed whether, if the clauses in this bill were, as he had stated them to be, out of another bill, the objection to this measure would be removed, for they only related to a pair of his Majesty's revenue, instead of the whole. If so, the defect was radical; for it was a clause by I which a stated sum was to be perpetual, and set off against a perpetual revenue of a given value some years ago, but capable of increase with the increasing prosperity of the general revenue of the empire; for during the happy period of ids Majesty's reign, from that time to the present, that revenue had increased to several hundred thousand pounds, and that revenue now was much higher than the civil list for which it had been exchanged; so that by this enactment of appropriate in perpetuity the hereditary revenues of the crown, Parliament would bi doing neither more nor less than this—to abolish his Majesty's inherent claim to a permanent improveable revenue, and giving for it a fixed unimproveable sum, and that too, without any consent or intimation on the part of the crown. If this was the case, and nothing had been said to induce him to doubt it, he could not help saying, it was very unfortunate that the attention of the House had not been called to it before any progress was made in the bill; for it was matter of great importance, upon the constitutional principle, that the hereditary revenues of the crown should not be taken away by Parliament without the consent of the crown 5 that was a principle which it was impossible to be the wish of any of the King's ministers to neglect, and quite as little could it be the wish of any Member of that House.
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—The question was then put, that this House do to-morrow resolve itself into the said Committee, and agreed to.

IRISH MILITIA FAMILIES.—
Mr. Fastersaid, that some days ago he mentioned a matter of serious moment to Ireland, which was, an apparent breach of faith of Parliament with the militia of Ireland. In November the militia were embodied in Ireland by order of the lord-lieutenant they were embodied by the existing law; by that law each militiaman who provided for his relatives was to have so per week for his wife, and is for his father, mother, or child, who were to be maintained by him. In August following, tin's law was repealed, by which these as were reduced to is. The militia had been embodied under the faith of the first, and no compensation was give to them for the reduction: this was a breach of faith, at which the militia murmured very much. He had letters informing him of much discontent upon this occasion, nor would he be answerable for the consequences, if some measure was not taken; and if taken at all, it must be taken before the assizes, which are now approaching, otherwise it would be too lare.
Mr. Secretary Yorkeadmitted the difficulty stated by the light hon. gent, and he should call the attention of the House to it; but the chief secretary of the lord-lieutenant had brought the bill forward; he had not vet had an opportunity of considering that subject, but in a few days he should come forward with an amendment to that bill, or a separate bill for that purpose.

LORD KILWARDEN'S FAMILY.—
Mr. George Ponsonbyasked the Chancellor of Exchequer, whether it was intended to take any step towards making some provision the family of the late Lord Kilwarden: it was now near 8 months since that tragical event happened, by which he was destroyed. His family were not in affluent circumstances, and the consideration of to manner in which he came to his untimely and lamented fate, and the recollection of his virtues, made this a matter of great concern, and he thought that no time should be lost in making an adequate provision for his family; and he was sure every loyal man in has empire would feel the necessity of this attention on the part of the government.
The Chancellorof the Exchequer said, that; this subject was one OP which his Majesty's servants had not been inattentive, and he believed in the course of a few days the attention of the House would be called to it.

HIS MAJESTY'S INDIS POSITION.—
Mr. Grey.I wish Sir, to say a very few words, on a subject which appears to me to be of the utmost importance. The attention of the House has this day been necessarily called, by witnessing in the House of Lords an instance of the personal exercise at an Act of Authority from the King.—Sir, the inference naturally drawn from that Act of authority, so exercised, is undoubtedly of the most satisfactory nature. It would indeed be completely satisfactory to me, if were assured by the right hon. the Chancel for of his Exchequer, that that Act was chine in fall health, winch its publicity indicates, and without which such an act of authority ought not to have been exercised, It would have been satisfactory to me if this were not some doubts upon that subject: bat, under all the circumstances, considering what we know from public reports, and comparing them with declarations made in this House and other places, there does appear to me to be some doubt all mystery upon this transaction, which leave on my mind sentiments of considerable uneasiness and apprehension. It would be great relief and satisfaction to me to have this serious apprehension removed by an explicit declaration from the minister; but, if not, the House is placed in a new and awful situation, in which it will be incumbent on ns to think what steps it may be proper for us to take.

VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.—
Mr. Secretary Yorke,immediately rose and moved the order of the day upon the Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—On the clause for allowing adjutants and quartermasters half-pay,
Mr. Whitbreadobserved, that there were many persons who had never been in the regular?, but who, from the excellence of their conduct as adjutants in volunteer corps were, he thought, equally intitled to half-pay. He was of opinion, that it should depend upon the report of the inspecting field-officer as to the good discipline of the corps, whether the adj. of such corps should be entitled to such pay or not.
Mr. Secretary Yorkesaid, it was necessary to lay down a general principle with respect to the half-pay to be allowed to adjutants, as otherwise, persons who acted as adjutants in volunteer corps, and who were wholly incompetent, might become entitled to it, and thus saddle considerable expense upon the public. To this rule, however, there might be some exceptions, as, if the inspecting field officer reported the good qualifications of an adjutant, it certainly
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was intended to represent such case to his Majesty, with a view that such adjutant might become entitled to the allowance in question.
Mr. Pittsaid, he agreed in the general outline with respect to adjutants receiving pay. He thought however that where there was a difficulty in getting good adjutants, that serjeant-majors, from regular troops might be resorted to as adjutants for volunteer corps. He then adverted to, and re-stated his former proposition, with respect to transferring officers from the line as field officers in volunteer corps.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was the strong disposition of ministers to agree to any thing that could tend to improve the discipline of the volunteer corps, consistent with the nature and principles of the constitution. It was his opinion that the purpose of the right hon. gent, would be better answered by the appointment of inspecting field officers who were appointed from officers of the line. He objected to the proposition of the right hon. gent, for the appointment of field officers to volunteer corps from the line, because the volunteers should not be led to suppose that it was intended to graft upon the system any thing not congenial to its nature. He knew that a degree of jealousy had been caused in some volunteer corps by the appointment of inspecting field officers, because they were liable to a sort of compulsory inspection by persons receiving pay. He was convinced, however of the necessity of appointing inspecting field officers, and that the volunteers could not be an efficient force without them; but if field officers from the line were introduced info the volunteer corps, it would necessarily I create jealousy. It had been made part of t the proposition, that field officers from the line should not be appointed to volunteer, corps without the consent of the commanding officers; but this was placing a commanding other in a situation of great difficulty and delicacy. If he recommended the appointment of a field officer from the line, it might be considered as a confession of his own insufficiency; whilst, if he refused to I assent to a recommendation of that nature, he might be liable to censure; add to this, there were many volunteer corps which already had the benefit of the assistance of I military officers of great experience, either as commandants, or as holding commissions in such corps. At the same time it was his wish that it should be a part of the instructions from the commander in chief to the general officers commanding districts, to spire field officers from the regulars, where-

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ever it can be done, in order to perfect the discipline of the volunteer corps. He repeated that the object of the right hon. gent. was answered by the appointment of inspecting field officers, and also by the appointment from the line of adjutants and serjeant-majors.
Mr. Pittsaid, as to the appointment of inspecting field officers, it was obvious that could not interfere with his proposal of appointing field officers from the line to assist in disciplining volunteer corps, as the persons appointed inspecting officers held the rank of lieut. colonels—whilst he proposed to appoint persons, probably captains, from half pay. At least they might try whether any such persons might be obtained; at any rate, the two descriptions of persons were wholly distinct, as no one was appointed an inspecting officer who had not been a field officer in the army, whilst he proposed to take field officers for volunteers from those in the line who held subaltern commissions. The right hon. gent, had said, that such a measure would be likely to create jealousy: he was sorry to hear it, but certainly the appointment of inspecting field officers was not sufficient to render volunteer corps in any degree well disciplined. Some of those officers had half a county to attend to, and he would ask, whether they could in that case do much more than relate what they had been told by others, with respect to the discipline of corps, instead of being intimately acquainted with it themselves? He was now, however, told, that because persons had been appointed to see that instructions had been given to volunteer corps, that it was unnecessary to appoint persons to instruct them: he could not conceive this to be very conclusive reasoning. He did not believe I hat any jealousy would be excited by the appointment of field officers of the description he had alluded to; it would rather be caused by the appointing inspecting field officers, who were superior to the commanders of the regiments. Add to this, that inspecting field officers were appointed by a compulsory regulation, whilst ail he proposed was to provide fried officers where it was requested by the commanding officers of corps, therefore there was still less cause for jealousy. Another ground of objection was, that commanding officers would be placed in a situation of great delicacy; but he did not see the force of this objection. Suppose the commanding officer were to recommend the appointment of a field officer from the line to his corps, lie would only indicate that he was a man of common sense, and that lie was more anxious to do his duty than to be actuated by
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trifling vanity: on the other side, if he declined such accommodation, he might be liable to censure for not doing that which he ought to do. As to any objection of economy, the saving which might arise from not pursuing the regulations he proposed, ought not to be put in competition with the advantages which would arise from its adoption. For these reasons he was still inclined to persist in urging the propositions which he had before made.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that if the description of persons alluded to by the right hon. gent, were appointed, they might assume an importance which would be inconsistent with the general system of the corps. He instanced the volunteers of Ireland, who had had no such officers, and who had displayed the best discipline, as well as the greatest courage and zeal.
General Loftusobjected to officers being sent from camps or other military stations in the hour of danger to discipline volunteer corps.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, his idea was, that such assistance should be at the discretion of the general of the district.
Mr. Pittsaid, that in the maritime districts such assistance might be provided, but with respect to the corps in the interior, they should be assisted in discipline by officers from half pay.
Mr. W. Dickensonobserved that there must be good officers to make good soldiers. As to economy, it was not a question of conomizing money, but the blood and lives of the people; it was necessary to have good officers to ensure discipline, and it was necessary to have discipline in order to ensure success; and he would ask whether defeats were considered as cheap articles by the present administration r If an enemy were to land, the country might have reason to curse such parsimony. If the bill now before the House was made any thing of, it would be made by the minority, and not by the majority; for if it had passed as originally brought in, it would have been one of the strong instances of the weak conduct of a feeble administration.
Mr. Hiley Addingtonsaid, he would leave to the decision of the House and the public the hon. gentleman's charge of economy against the present administration. He objected to any measure for the introduction of field officers from the line into volunteer corps, as it would for to create dissensions amongst the officers and privates of these corps.
Mr. Windham,wished to understand precisely the meaning of his right hon. friend's

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(Mr. Pitt) proposition, as he could not consent to rob the line of officers, in order to discipline volunteer corps.
Mr. Pittsaid, his proposition was to take officers from the half-pay, where they were useless, and to make them useful by contributing to discipline volunteer corps.
Mr. C. Wynnedeprecated the economy of ministers, as its only object was to diminish their expenses, which were to come before Parliament, whilst a greater weight fell upon the people.
Mr. Spenser Stanhopeadverted to the erection of beacons, and instanced one in the West Riding of Yorkshire, guarded by four persons, one of whom had only one leg, another had only one arm, the third had lost the roof his mouth, and the fourth was notoriously drunken, and each of these were paid half-a-guinea per day.
Mr. SecretaryYorke said, that beacons had been erected in the West Riding of Yorkshire without consulting the general of the district, Lord Mulgrave.
Mr. Spencer Stanhopesaid, they were erected by order of the general of the district.
Mr. SecretaryYorke said, he had understood the contrary.—After some further observations from Lord Temple, Sir Wm. Milner, Sir Henry Mildmay and other members, the clause was agreed to.
On the clause relating to the recovery of fines and Penalties,
Mr. Pittsuggested that it would be better to give an option in case of non-payment, either to levy the fine by distress, or to inflict imprisonment for two or three days or a week, as the distress might be injurious to the family of the person distressed upon.
Mr. G. Vansittartwas for extending the imprisonment to a fortnight.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought the imprisonment of the individual would be more injurious to his family than levying the fine by distress.
Mr. Pittexplained, that the idea was, to vest a discretionary power in the Magistrate, to imprison, suppose for a week, in the default of distress.
Sir R. Buxtonstrongly recommended the allowing a certain number of days, at the expiration of which, if the penalties were not paid, the Magistrate should have the power of committing in the case of default.
Mr. Sturgess Bournecontended, that the optional power proposed to be given to the Magistrates, proceeded on the most humane and liberal principle that it was possible to introduce into a case of pecuniary penalty.
Mr. Burlandproposed the introduction of
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a clause, in substance enacting, that in case of a refusal or neglect to pay the fine after a given number of days, it should then be lawful for the Magistrate to commit, &c.
Mr. Hobhousespoke shortly in support of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's idea in favour or the mode of distress, as imprisonment would evidently prevent the individual from earning the accustomed provision for his family.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, he was inclined to make the opulent private pay in his purse; but would not resort to imprisonment, except where it was indispensably necessary. The proceeding of distress, he thought one of extreme oppression; but as some principle of compulsion must obtain, he thought the option of distress or imprisonment should be given. With respect to the application of these penalties, they were to go to the common fund of the different corps for defraying the necessary expenses, &c. But, in observing upon this point, he must repeat what he had said thereon on a former occasion; he thought it would be a sounder and more manly policy to come forward at once and provide for the payment of such expenses out of the public purse; as he predicted, for want of certain and unfailing funds, the greater number of the corps would fall to pieces and cease to exist. This he said, to a certain degree, was exemplified by the instance of one of the City corps, where, out of the requisite sum of about 11,000 l. he understood 7 or 8,000 l. or some very large sum remained due.—Several corps were destitute of the most necessary articles. It was now of little consequence, whether the plan of subscription was originally a wise measure. He thought it, now at least, very improper they were providing for a permanent system in the bill. As that was the case, let them do it with their eyes open, let them not blink the genuine question; they should contemplate the danger as it ought to be viewed. There were many articles of expense absolutely necessary to be incurred in respect of the volunteer corps: keeping the arms clean and in repair, was one of the principal items the payment of the drummers was another indispensable requisite: he wished to know whether that was to be provided for out of any particular fund? There was more money thrown away in respect of the volunteers since their institution than would set on foot an immense regular force: let the; private subscriptions and annual contributions be calculated, and see what an immense aggregate they would amount to

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The present system was one of the most profuse and extravagant that was ever yet broached. Here one or two member's rose, and expressed their sentiments, that what Mr. Whitebread was advancing, was not in order.] Mr. Whitebread resumed. What lie said was strictly in order, and advanced then with a view to save the time of the House; the penalties were applicable to the funds, ids observations were therefore in order. As to the question he reprobated the utter want of economy in the system. A large regular force might have over and over again been put in activity for ness money. In process of time, the present sources would fail; individuals would every year become more weary or less able to pay the contributions. Speaking more immediately to the point in question, were the alternative of imprisonment, resolved on, he should prefer the shortest possible period.
Mr. H. Lascellesthought that the accumulation of fines should be prevented, as they might run up to an amount that might impede the resignation of a member when lie should so determine.
Mr. Pittreferred the hon. member to a particular part of she clause, where the case was provided for by the words.
Mr. Roseexpressed his opinion, that the magistrates should be vested with the power of committing to the nearest place or confinement—The clause, as amended, was then agreed to.
Some discussion then took place, respecting a subsequent provision in the bill, similar to the preceding one. in some of its effect?, but principally affecting a superior class of individuals. It was contended on the part of those who supported the bill, that those persons who were able to pay, but who from obstinacy, or other motives, did not choose to pay, should be decidedly compellable; and with respect to those, the option of distress or imprisonment, was proposed to be left.
Mr. Foxobjected to the principle, as regulated by the provisions of the bill. Though the members had agreed to the payment of certain fines, they had no idea of eventually incurring a capital punishment; by such a regulation, the volunteer was put in a different situation from that in which he considered himself, when making his agreement.
Mr. Pittobserved, that a degree of compulsion in the case under discussion was evidently necessary. They should recollect that the right of the volunteer to resign was admitted, in case he was not satisfied with the regulations. The discipline of the corps was surely necessary to be preserved; and farther, the lines arose out of the regulations
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agreed to by the individuals themselves. The principle was not new to this act. In the original act a provision to that effect obtained, but it was not modified by the optional power. The points at issue resolved I into two questions: the first, whether in default of distress, proceedings should be had I against the person; the latter was certainly one in analogy to the law of the country 5 and the second, which involved the only new point, was, whether an alternative of subjecting the individual to imprisonment should be allowed, and that this was the more lenient of the two he thought had been clearly established. After considering the topic a little farther, he expressed his concurrence in the, regulation for allowing I the optional power.—Some further clauses and provisions of the bill were then agreed to without observation, when it was agreed to report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The House then resumed, and the Committee were ordered to sit again to-morrow, Adjourned.