Commons Sitting of 19 December 1803

MINUTES.
Colonel Barton, from the office of the Inspector General of the army of reserve, brought up the general return of the number of men raised for the
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royal army of reserve up to the present month of December. Ordered to be printed.—Mr. Parr, from the African Company, presented some accounts from that company. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Dent presented a petition horn the prisoners confined for debt in Lancaster Gaol, praying for relief.—Colonel Stanley and Mr. Tierney presented similar petitions from the prisoners confined for debt in Chester Gaol, and in the Fleet. Ordered to lie on the table.—A new writ was ordered for the borough of Caermarthen, in the room of J. G. Phillips, Esq. who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.—A person from the Excise, brought up an account of the quantity of table beer and small beer, which had paid duty from January, 1802, to January, 1803.—The report of the Committee of Supply, respecting the sum granted for the encouragement of the linen manufactures in Ireland, was brought up and agreed to.

IRISH IMPORT DUTIES BILL.—
Mr. Carrysaid, he rose for the purpose of giving a notice relative to the Ways and Means of Ireland. It was not usual to go into the Ways and Means of Ireland, previous to the Christmas recess, he therefore now only wished to give notice of his intention upon that subject, and the rather, because the military duties of many of the Irish members rendered it impossible for them at present to attend their duty in Parliament. The notice he now gave, related to the consolidation of the subsisting import duties, and some of the inland duties in Ireland. A schedule of those duties had been laid before Parliament last session, and was agreed to, but certain considerations, particularly a wish to give the fullest possible time to merchants for the investigation of the subject, induced the postponement of further proceedings upon it. A similar schedule would be laid before Parliament after the recess. He hoped the House would excuse him for being thus special in his notice, because he was anxious that it should be well understood in Ireland, particularly by the merchants. The duties referred to, were principally upon foreign articles, either imported directly into Ireland, or through Great-Britain; but in consequence of the stipulations in the Act of Onion, nor upon any articles, the produce of Great-Britain. The duties now payable on foreign articles were principally those under the 40th Geo. III. cap. 4, the 41st Geo. III. cap. 33, which had since been continued, and the 42d Geo. III. cap. 117. But the consolidation was not to be made strictly and precisely upon the duties as they now stood, because in all cases where there

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were fractions of a penny, the fraction would be rejected, and the duty brought to the next integer either above or below. In the former case the revenue would be increased a little; and, in the latter case, it would be diminished 3 little. In some cases, certain duties imposed by 42 Geo III. cap. 117, of 3½ per cent on imports, and 1 or½ per cent, on export would be extended by this schedule to East-India goods. The drawbacks now allowed on the export of foreign articles to foreign countries were the under the acts of the 40th and 41st Geo. III. the duties under the 42d Geo. III. cap. 117, not now drown back, were by the schedule as voted, drawn back. He had but one more remark to trouble the House with; by the 40th Geo. III. passed in the last session of the Irish Parliament, the duties were laid upon most particles ad valorem, and the additional duty imposed by the 42d Geo. III. cap. 117, was a rated duty, or the reverse, which of course caused considerable trouble to the merchants, for whose accommodation, and in order to facilitate business, it would now be proposed, that the duties under these act? should be reduced to one and the same denomination, viz. either a rated duty or an ad valorem duty, according to the nature of the article. The schedule, which he should propose after the recess, would almost in every instance be the same as that of last session, yet he wished to be distinctly understood, that it might vary from it; because, where alterations were suggested, either by the merchants themselves or by others, the good sense of which was apparent, they would undoubtedly be attended to. In the course of the last session of Parliament, he had given notice that he should prepare, for the consideration of Parliament, a measure in the shape of a property tax. for Ireland; he did not mean at present to make any observation upon that subject, except to say that he should endeavour to prepare a measure of that sort, and to submit it to Parliament soon after the recess. He had only further to add, that he should propose that the duties should be permanent, in order to meet the permanent charges of Ireland, and not annual, as they had been up to the present time.

VOLUNTEER EXEMPTION BILL.—
A message from the Lords, informed the House, their lordships had agreed to the Volunteer Exemption Amendment Bill, with several amendments, to which they desired the concurrence of the House.—Mr. Secretary Yorke moved, that the amendments be now read.—The first amendment being accordingly read.
Mr. Secretary Yorkesaid, that on the reading of the bill and the amendment, it would strike any one that this amendment was necessary; for the bill, as it went from the House up to the other House of Parliament, exempted persons accepted and enrolled as volunteers from serving in the militia, but had no provision on being ballotted to serve in the militia before they became volunteers, and this amendment was therefore necessary, in order that persons who had been ballotted for the militia, should be obliged to do so, if they should happen to quit their volunteer corps; that they should claim no exemption, on account of having been volunteers, but that such exemptions should continue only while they remained volunteers, for which reason he trusted the House would have no objection to the amendment.
The Speakerobserved, upon the point of order, that the usual course was to read ail the amendments over once, before any discussion took place upon them, and that the season for observation was, regularly speaking, on the question of second reading, or of agreeing to the amendments. This was the more necessary to be observed, because by it the House could see the bearing of the amendments altogether, before it entertained any discussion upon them.—The amendments were then read; they were all verbat except the first, or which the substance is already stated.—On the question for the second reading,
Mr. Windhamtook an objection to the House, at present, in this matter. He said it was usual to adjoin n the consideration of all amendments made by the Lords, in any bill sent to them from the House, in order to give the members time to understand it. He did not profess to understand this amendment, thus brought down and read upon the sudden. He saw no harm in postponing the consideration of it for twenty-lour hours. He said, that an idea had gone abroad, whether true or not, he did not pretend to say, that the amendments made by the Lord's in this bill, were such as the House had not been accustomed to receive and acquiesce in. He dared to say, that was not likely to be the case upon such an occasion as this, but that was a point, however well assured, it was imposable for the House to know; for which reason, he thought this subject ought 10 stand over until to-morrow: this he pressed the: more particularly, as many gentlemen had gone away under an idea that this bill would not have been brought from the House of Lords tonight; and that if these amendments were now agreed to, these gen-

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tlemen would be deprived of the opportunity of delivering; their sentiments upon them.
Mr. Secretary Yorkesaid, that if he thought there was any amendment which required much consideration, lie should wish it to be deferred, to give every gentleman who wished it, an opportunity of delivering his sentiments upon u, but there really was nothing of that kind. It certainly was not difficult to understand the first amendment, as he had already stated it; and, as to all the rest, they were merely verbal. With regard to the idea of the amendments being material, and of its hiving so gene forth to the public, that was one of the inconveniences which resulted from permitting the publication of the proceedings of Parliament; under which, some persons had the audacity, in direct defiance of the standing orders of the. House, not only to misrepresent the proceedings of the two Houses of Parliament, but sometime actually to invent matter, which created great confusion in the public mind. A clause was proposed by a noble lord in the other House of Parliament, by way of amendment to the bill, which amendment was now before the House, and which went only to make up for an oversight of the House of Commons, by which it was provided, that if any volunteer should quit his corps, he should no longer be allowed to avail himself of the exemptions to which volunteers were entitled; that was all—a thing too plain for discussion.
Mr. Calcraftprofessed to have no wish to procrastinate this business, but he could not help thinking it was quite necessary that this amendment should be inquired into, which could not be done unless it was postponed until to-morrow at least. he was satisfied that a much more respectable attendance in point of numbers, would have taken place in the House if it had been thought that these amendments were to have been proposed to be agreed to to-night. He knew of no reason why the House might not take this matter into consideration to-morrow. He was quite sure none had been alleged.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that all those, gentlemen who had heard the amendment and attended to the bill, who thought that it only went to supply the defect of that bill as it went from that House, would agree to the amendment. But if any gentlemen in the House would have the goodness to attend to the amendment while it was read from the chair, and then would declare, as a member of that House, that he did no: understand the amendment perfectly, net only would it be matter of jus-
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tice to allow further time to consider it, and therefore he should not oppose it, but he should himself move for further time for that purpose.
Lord Folkestoneobsersed, that several gentlemen who, he believed, intended to be present at the discussion of these amendments, had gone away under an impression that these amendments were not to be proposed to be agreed to until to-morrow. His lordship said, he understood it to be the general practice of that House not to take amendments made by the lords into consideration until the next day after they were brought down.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdesired the Speaker to read, first the bill as it went up to the House of Lords, and then the amendment made by their lordships, which being done.
The Speakertook leave to observe, that although sometimes amendments made by the lords were taken into consideration on a subsequent day, yet it was extremely frequent for the House to agree to amendments made by the lords on the same day they were brought down. One of the amendments had been already explained: as to the rest, they were merely verbal. It was for die House to say whether it would consider them now, or defer them to a future day.
The Chancellorof the Exchequer said, that the substantial amendment now before the House was only to carry into effect the manifest intention of the House, but which intention had been imperfectly expressed. Here he went over the clause again, and observed, that the bill as it originally stood, only affected volunteers who should be ballotted, &c. but did not provide for the case of those who ought have been balotted and exempted on account of being volunteers, but who ought not to have such exemptions longer than they should serve as volunteers.
Mr. Windbamsaid, that the importance of the subject was unquestionable. The propriety of adjourning the discussion of it was to him obvious. He professed himself incapable of understanding this amendment on the sudden, at least of being sure he understood it. Gentlemen had gone away under the idea that in was not to be discussed to-night, and he thought it was little more than matter of course to defer it until to-morrow. He was really ignorant of the possible effect of certain words being introduced into a bill like this, and his ignorance strengthened his argument in this case, for it was impossible without time to remove

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it. There was no necessity of thus going backwards and forwards in a hurry with bills; and therefore on these grounds, with every reason for the adjournment, and I none against it, he should think the House Would not prooceed en this matter now.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that by the word substantial amendment, he did not mean that which the right hon gent. who spoke last, might suppose; he meant it only by way of distinction from those amendments which were merely verbal.
Mr. Gilessaid, he considered the bill as new amended by the lords, to be precisely what the House intended it to be when they passed it, but from an oversight had omitted to express with precision, for which reason he supported the amendment, and saw no reason for delaying the consideration of it.
Mr. Calcraftadhered to his former opinion upon this subject, on account of gentlemen having left the House under an idea I that the subject was not to be discussed tonight. As to the amendment being only what the House intended to have expressed, he did not think, it much to the credit of the House, to have sent into the other House a bill which did not express what was meant by its authors—an additional reason for not being so hasty a second time. He alleged that the House would have done more wisely by printing the bill, and giving more time for its discussion than it had done. The lords had ordered it to be printed, and wisely so, for such measures should have as ample a discussion as possible. In one word, unless some better reason than any he had yet heard, was given for agreeing to these amendments to-night, he should think it his duty to object to that course.
An adjournment was moved by Lord Folkestone, as the bill had not been printed, that members might have an opportunity of seeing with more certainty what was the effect of the different amendments.—The gallery was then cleared; but we understand that his lord-ship was prevailed upon to withdraw his j motion. The amendments were then read and agreed to; the bill was returned to the lords, and the House adjourned.