HL Deb 17 November 2004 vol 666 cc1432-3

2.45 p.m.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester asked the Chairman of Committees:

Whether he will issue instructions to security staff that they require all Members and officials of the House to wear their passes upon entering and whilst in the building.

The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara)

My Lords, security staff are already instructed to advise pass holders to display their passes. The recent security review has underlined that the wearing of passes is fundamental to any security system. I therefore strongly encourage all Members and staff to wear their passes when on the parliamentary estate.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees for that reply. Does he agree that it is unfair on our staff if Members of another place, without wearing any kind of identification, breeze up to your Lordships' House and, when challenged, offer the comment—perhaps the most unhelpful comment in the English language—"Don't you know who I am?"? As there can hardly be any security conscious building in the world these days which does not require the wearing of identification badges of some kind or another, should not everyone be doing all they can to help our doorkeepers and attendants in the difficult and important job that they do so well on our behalf?

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I could not agree more with the noble Lord on the latter part of the question; he is absolutely right. As to the first part of the question, I also agree that "Don't you know who I am?" is a most unhelpful remark to make. We all know who we are—I hope—but a large number of junior and young security staff who have not been here very long really cannot be expected to know who all 700 Members of your Lordships' House are. I am afraid that there have been incidents where Members of both Houses have done exactly what the noble Lord said and have been rude and aggressive to members of security staff. I hope that that will cease.

Baroness Sharples

My Lords, on looking round the House today, does the Chairman of Committees agree that very few noble Lords are wearing their passes? I quite agree with the noble Lord that it is not fair. I have been here a mere 31 years but I still wear my pass. I do not expect many of the security staff have been here that long.

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I am not going to carry out a spot check on all those who are wearing their passes and all those who are not. As I said in my original Answer, I would very much encourage, as would members of the Front Benches and the usual channels, all Members to wear their passes for precisely the reason given by the noble Baroness.

Lord Boston of Faversham

My Lords, while applauding wholeheartedly the purpose behind the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester—and, I hope, following the practice myself—will the noble Lord the Lord Chairman bear in mind that there has always been recognised one exception to this practice: that is, that noble Lords and our Clerks at the Table are not required to wear their passes while in the Chamber? Will he further bear in mind that when I occupied the position which he now so splendidly graces, I was very gently, delicately and diplomatically reprimanded by our former Clerk of the Parliaments, Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth, for wearing my pass while on the Woolsack, which he considered to be "wholly unseemly"?

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, he is no longer here and I always wear my pass on the Woolsack.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I may have been in an unseemly position for 12 years on the Woolsack. I have worn my pass every day since February 1991, when the IRA mortared Downing Street, and Black Rod asked every one of us to wear a pass, since the number of police was doubled, and it was assumed that every other policeman would not know me.

In these times of high security, at least three times in the past three months, I have been told by young—and some older—security forces from outside London that they do not recognise the pass. One of them said to me, "Sonny, go and get your father", which I thought was interesting. Others, even though they may be colour blind, admit us down at the other end. Will the noble Lord take it on hoard that in periods of high security there may be those who do not even recognise our passes or other passes from within the Palace?

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I think that that problem arises mainly when there is particularly high security, such as when a demonstration is taking place outside the building, and policemen who are not part of the normal complement are around and about the place. There was an incident not so long ago when, regrettably, policemen were stopping Members of your Lordships' House crossing from Old Palace Yard to here. That was very quickly put right.

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville

My Lords, is it the experience of the noble Lord the Lord Chairman that rudeness and arrogance are sometimes prompted by guilt?

The Chairman of Committees

I would not know, my Lords.

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