Electoral System (Hansard, 17 November 2004)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Constitutional Affairs (Baroness Ashton of Upholland)
My Lords, the Government remain committed to reviewing the Jenkins report and the experience of the major innovations to the electoral systems used in the UK that have been introduced since 1997 to assess whether changes might be made to the electoral system for the House of Commons.

§ Lord Goodhart
My Lords, in a minor way, this is an historic occasion because I think that I am the last person for the foreseeable future to be asking the fifth Question on the Order Paper.
I hope that the Minister's response means that reports in last Friday's press that the manifesto commitment to set up a review had been blocked were at least premature. Do the Government recognise that there will be great concern if the manifesto commitment to carry out this review is not implemented before it is overtaken by the next manifesto?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, in this historic moment the noble Lord will recognise that I will not comment on press speculation, but I stand by my Answer.

§ Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, has my noble friend noticed that the Liberal Democrats often bob up on this question of electoral systems in the wake of a disappointing opinion poll for them? The NOC poll today certainly confirms the pattern. However, would my noble friend agree that, in any review of the electoral system relating to the House of Commons, 1440 there would have to be overwhelming evidence and convincing reasons to change a well-tried and tested system?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, if one looks at the manifesto commitment, it is important to examine the fact that we now have five different voting systems. A person living in London has the opportunity to vote in five different systems. It is important that we review the effect and impact of those different systems on the population because part of wanting to ensure that citizens enjoy rights and responsibilities in our country is ensuring that they are involved in the electoral process. On that basis, a review is always welcome.

§ Baroness Gould of Potternewton
My Lords, will my noble friend give us a little more detail about what is happening in Scotland and the relevant timetable, because I understand that there were two reviews. One looked at local government elections and one at parliamentary elections. It would be useful to know when they are intending to report.

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, when I have details of the Scottish proposals I shall write to my noble friend.

§ Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, would the Minister agree that one of the advantages of a different voting system would be that it would provide a better means of ensuring that more women and ethnic minorities were able to become Members of the other place?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, there is a great deal of speculation about which voting system might engender a different result. As noble Lords will be aware, if one puts three politicians—never mind three psephologists—in a room together, one will have at least six different views on which voting system might be most appropriate. We all have our favourite system. In any review, it is important to consider the issue of representation and how we can represent people fully in our democracy.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Baroness is right in saying that the Government should pay attention to what is happening in the various devolved assemblies and in Parliament. Is she aware that increasing numbers of people in Scotland are commenting in the press, and to one another, that list Members of the Scots Parliament are not working as hard as those elected by first past the post? That may well be because they are dependent on political parties for adoption next time, not on the electorate in general.

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I have heard some interesting and different remarks made about the different responsibilities of the different Members, including those of some who feel that Members should 1441 operate more as if they were constituency MPs—hence the discussions and dialogue to which the noble Baroness referred. I will keep in touch with her on that point.

§ Lord Lipsey
My Lords, would my noble friend take it from me, as another one who is always bobbing up on electoral issues, that it will greatly please those who favoured this review as a moderate way forward on this vexed topic that she has confirmed that this time we are keeping our election manifesto pledge, whereas last time we broke it?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I would have been astonished if my noble friend had not bobbed up on this particular Question. I stand by the Answer that I gave at the beginning.

§ Lord Livsey of Talgarth
My Lords, would the Minister congratulate the Welsh Assembly, which has the highest proportion of women elected to any legislature in western Europe, as a result of proportional representation?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, it is a joy to work with colleagues in Wales, both men and women, and a joy to see women taking a full part in political life, which is where we belong.

§ Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, will there be an early review of the continuing scandal by which MPs from Scotland have very little to do in Westminster, because so many powers are reserved to the Scottish Parliament? That seems to be raising widespread concerns about their role here, and how it can be made more useful. Is that going to looked into, or just left?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, one might question the suggestion that those Members have nothing much to do. That is not the impression that I get. Certainly, if one carried out a review of the different voting systems, one would have the opportunity to consider all the systems and examine all the possibilities.

§ Lord Inglewood
My Lords, it may surprise the Minister to know that my experience as a Member of the European Parliament was that all UK Members of the European Parliament, almost without exception, find the existing system unsatisfactory. Could she confirm that, in the review, while recognising that proportional representation is the appropriate system to use for those elections, some of the other details of the system could be looked at with care?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I do not have any knowledge of what the terms of reference of the review will be, but I shall ensure that the noble Lord's comments are taken on board.

§ Lord Greaves
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to an opinion poll today which showed that, compared with the last general election, the Liberal Democrats were up while the Labour and Tory parties were down, which means we shall gain more seats in the next election. I do not consider that to be disappointing.
1442 Would the Minister agree that the Scottish Parliament should be congratulated on introducing the single transferable vote in local elections in Scotland, which is the only system that combines voting for individuals with broad proportionality and constituency representation? Would it not be sensible, under local election pilots, to allow those local authorities that wished to do so to experiment with the single transferable vote for their own elections here in England?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I am always grateful to hear about the latest opinion polls. Noble Lords who know me well know that I live with the possibility of hearing about opinion polls every day. Perhaps I could spend an hour or two with the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, discussing the implications of an opinion poll that put the Liberal Democrats ahead and what it would mean if translated into seats at a general election, when or if there should be one.
As for STV, there are equal and opposing views about the possibilities and the potential of everything—from the point raised by the late Lord Jenkins in terms of AV-plus, the AV system that operates in Australia and so on. We each have our favourite system; I am not sure that leaving the matter to individual local authorities to determine what they would like to do in particular circumstances would get us very far.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, does the Minister agree that people like to vote for an individual, not a list?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, when one considers voting behaviour and the reason why people vote as they do, one finds a whole raft of different issues. In a general election, it is common to find that people have not voted for the individual candidate but for the party. That happens in some of our local and European elections, too. The noble Lord's view of how electoral behaviour works is an interesting but, I might say, simplistic one.
An interesting point to consider with regard to electoral systems is whether considering different systems enables one to identify the characteristics of voting more fully.

§ Lord Sewel
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that any output from the review of the electoral system in Scotland would require legislation in the two Houses of Parliament? Might it not be a good idea for those carrying out the review to be aware of and sensitive about that constraint?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I am not sure whether the output will require legislation—it depends on what the output is. But I am sure that those considering the matter will be aware of any implications that there might be in legislative terms.