Iraq: Trade in Antiquities (Hansard, 1 May 2003)

§ The Minister for Trade (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean)
My Lords, United Nations Security Council resolutions make it illegal to export anything from Iraq except under the Oil for Food programme. Therefore, it is illegal to export antiques from Iraq. Negotiations are under way in the Security Council to lift sanctions against Iraq. We will be discussing with other Security Council members how best to protect Iraq's cultural assets in the circumstances.

§ Lord Redesdale
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, which will be helpful. However, any ban on the export of antiquities does not solve the problem that many of the antiquities were looted in the first place, as was expressed most movingly by Mr Donny George at the British Museum earlier in the week. Will the Minister say what efforts the coalition forces are taking to stop the ongoing looting? It is not taking place at the Baghdad museum but outside Baghdad, especially on archaeological sites. There is no confirmation because no one is there at the moment, but we believe that such sites are suffering from gangs looting the artefacts to sell on the international market.

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, the problem is very serious, and we all join in the real regret expressed at the meeting held on 29th April under the auspices of the British Museum about the looting that has taken place. The noble Lord may know that the MoD consulted the archaeological community widely before the conflict started. Newcastle University and University College, London, provided lists of sites of key cultural and historical interest in Iraq. The troops were briefed accordingly to avoid those sites during the conflict.
851 In the area dominated by American troops, there is now some security around the Baghdad and Mosul museums. As I understand it, there was a limited amount of looting in Basra, where we have said that we will have an amnesty for those wishing and able to return looted objects. The issue goes wider than that. I am sure that other noble Lords will ask me questions relating to other matters that we are putting in hand to try to recover some of the looted articles.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords—

§ Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, for a second time now, priceless antiques from the Iraqi museums have been looted and possibly sold, some even to order. We on these Benches fully support UN Security Council Resolution 661 and all the laws that prohibit the trading of such looted antiques. However, in the present climate, does the Minister feel that either keeping or lifting sanctions on the exporting of valuable antiques from Iraq is the most efficient method to stop the illicit trade? In the light of this, will the Government now give official support to the Bill of my noble friend Lord Renfrew—it is currently in another place—which would deal with the problem?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, the lifting of sanctions is very important in taking forward the future of oil for the Iraqi people. However, as I hope that I made clear in my initial Answer, we would wish to do so only in such a way as was consistent in protecting Iraq's cultural assets in the circumstances. Basically, we are talking about many goods and cultural artefacts that have been stolen. Trade in those artefacts would of course be entirely wrong.
The noble Baroness referred to a Bill that had its Second Reading in another place on 4th April. As I understand it, there is wide cross-party support for that Bill, and the Government will support it.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn)
My Lords, I think that we would like to hear from my noble friend Lord Strabolgi.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that advance warning was given that the Baghdad museum was at risk? Was there any advance plan to protect the museum once Baghdad had been liberated?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham
Dean: My Lords, I am aware of the advance warnings—the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, raised them with me on Monday—about not only the Baghdad museum, but also a number of very important cultural sites. As I have indicated, we did our best to ensure that our troops knew where those cultural sites were. However, while the majority of the looting was taking place, the situation in Iraq remained extremely unstable. Therefore, it was too dangerous for troops to 852 undertake static guarding of specific sites, as I hope that I explained to noble Lords when I answered points on the subject on Monday. Such activity was deemed too dangerous, until the security situation allowed for it. It does now, and that activity is being undertaken.

§ Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, in view of the fact that the greatest destruction and looting appears to have taken place in areas for which the coalition partners and the United States have had responsibility, in what dialogue are the Government engaged with the American authorities?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, as I understand it, my noble friend from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, Lady Blackstone, discussed these matters during her recent visit to Washington. I hope that the noble Lord will also be pleased to learn that at the meeting held on 29th April representatives from many of the institutions with interests in these cultural artefacts came over from the United States. I understand that the J Paul Getty Museum, the Metropolitan Museum of Art and, I believe, the State Museum of Pennsylvania were all represented on that occasion. We are working, together with UNESCO, to try to find a way forward.

§ Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that at the British Museum meeting this Tuesday a list of the items stolen from the Iraq Museum was produced and that there can now be no question but that any trader knowingly selling anything on the list will be blatantly selling an item that is known to be stolen? It is now very clear that the main objects on the list of stolen items are on all the websites around the world.

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I am, indeed, aware that such a list was produced because my noble friend was kind enough to furnish me with a copy before we entered the Chamber today. However, I should point out to your Lordships that, at the beginning of the month, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State at the DCMS wrote to the British Art Market Federation and the Antiquities Dealers Association to ask for their assistance in locating and identifying looted material, should it arrive in the United Kingdom. She has also written to John Healey, the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, asking him to ensure that Customs officers are alerted at all ports of entry into the United Kingdom so that they, too, are aware of the particular goods that are of very great concern. I know that there are very many, but this list will also be conveyed to them.