HL Deb 23 January 2003 vol 643 cc888-908

3.30 p.m.

Further considered on Report after Clause 17

Lord Glentoran moved Amendment No. 29A: After Clause 17, insert the following new clause—

"APPOINTMENTS TO THE POLICE SERVICE OF NORTHERN IRELAND (1) The Secretary of State may, at the request of a majority of the Policing Board, and acting on the recommendation of the Chief Constable, by order—

  1. (a) suspend the provisions of section 46 of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 (c. 32) for a maximum period of six months; and
    2. 889
  2. (b) permit the Chief Constable to appoint to the Police Service of Northern Ireland persons from other constabularies within the United Kingdom as he deems appropriate.
(2) An order may not be made under this section unless a draft of that order has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, both Houses of Parliament.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a continuation of our previous debate. My party supports Patten and, at this stage, the 50:50 recruitment regulations. I am optimistic about them in one way because essentially they are only temporary in the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000. But I disagree with the noble and learned Lord in his optimism about the way that recruitment is going.

I apologise for the late tabling of the amendment, which is the result of a political visit—as opposed to one of my normal weekend visits—to Northern Ireland at the beginning of this week. From my discussions with various people, there is clearly a recruitment problem within the Police Service of Northern Ireland. It is short of personnel in specific areas and there are gaps in knowledge, experience and numbers of people.

I confess that the amendment is not absolutely to my liking and could be improved but its purpose is to tease out some ideas for alleviating the recruitment problem. One could say that the root cause is 50:50 but I choose not to do so. I say that it is Sinn Fein/IRA. There are plenty of Roman Catholics and nationalists in Northern Ireland who are dying to join the police force—good, competent and honest people whom we and the Chief Constable, I am sure, would much like to have within the PSNI. However, intimidation is widespread. Although the Catholic Church and the SDLP have put their names to the PSNI and have joined, the others have not. While the others continue not to join and to intimidate, life is made extraordinarily difficult for the recruiters. The net result is that recruitment to the PSNI has been hijacked by Sinn Fein's threats, intimidation and refusal to play the game and join the team.

The amendment tackles the numbers head on, in terms of both clerical and uniformed personnel, so that the proportion of uniformed officers having to work in secretarial roles can be significantly reduced and the Chief Constable may be permitted to appoint persons from other constabularies within the UK as he deems appropriate.

I understand that a large number of men and women from Northern Ireland are serving in police forces elsewhere in the UK but cannot automatically be recruited and given places within the PSNI. Most would have to go through the training centre at Garnerville. If one has been on the beat for seven or 10 years and is experienced, one would not expect a return to basic training because of changing forces. That does not seem logical.

Anyone who has visited Garnerville will know that as a training centre for a brand-new, growing police force, it is awful. Ht is not dirty or rundown, but it is too small and inadequate. The accommodation for trainees is terrible—tiny rooms for two people in which at best one of them can sit and work but the other cannot. The facilities are not exciting or attractive and would not make me feel good if Garnerville were my first impression of PSNI training. It may be a side issue but Garnerville seriously shocked me.

We must find a means as soon as possible of loosening the grip that Sinn Fein intimidation has on PSNI recruitment. I suggest that the provision of the 2000 Act initially be suspended for only six months so that a door can be opened when the Chief Constable and his team have their backs to the wall, with not enough officers on the streets. Because the force is overworked and overstretched, morale suffers, absenteeism increases and one starts on a wheel that we have all encountered at some stage in our lives, in one form of business or another.

Despite the politics, which I understand clearly, the Government must find a way to alleviate the problem. I beg to move.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, I support 50:50 entry to the police service, or at least some proportion close to it, which is necessary in view of northern Irish history and in particular of the disputes in the past over policing. It is also necessary to bridge the Protestant-Roman Catholic divide, which is still very real despite much valiant inter-Church and ecumenical work.

I am less happy about the way in which the principle has been put into practice. Section 46(1) of the 2000 Act was badly drafted. It states that half shall be persons who are deemed to be Roman Catholic and half shall be others. I cannot see why atheists, agnostics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and members of other minority religions should be deemed to be Protestants. As many as 15 per cent of the whole population may be agnostic, non-believing or adherents to minority faiths. Surely such people can be trusted to act impartially as between Protestants and Catholics, since by definition they do not share their convictions.

I therefore suggest that there is much scope for new thinking on how the 50:50 principle should be applied. Will the Secretary of State vary the ratios in some helpful way? As I said at Second Reading, I am very concerned at the overall shortage of police officers, especially detectives and other ranks, and the shortage of officers to provide cover at night. The recruitment of civilians and the new police support staff may, and I hope will, do something to relieve the situation.

I was glad to hear of the campaigns that the recruitment consultants are now running. I should like to propose that police volunteers to serve in Northern Ireland, coming from Britain and the Commonwealth, should be treated as additional to 50:50 local recruitment. Their education, training and previous service make them fully aware of the need for total impartiality. They should be free from sectarian suspicion. The Chief Constable has told me that he advertises twice a year to attract British and Commonwealth applicants. Is that enough? I should like to see an appeal made to the heads of British and Commonwealth police services to second some of their best and most experienced officers.

In my view, on those grounds, Amendment No. 29A is not geographically, sufficiently widely drawn. Surely the United States of America should also be included in both advertisements and appeals. That country has been generous to Northern Ireland by providing the services of the former Senator Mitchell and by arranging sundry presidential visits. I should have thought that the USA could afford to spare a few police officers.

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville

My Lords, I said this morning that I was asking a stand-alone question. The question that I ask now is a stand-alone question also. It is tangential to my noble friend's amendment. I shall understand if the noble and learned Lord the Lord Privy Seal says that he would like to write to me.

About a year ago, the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and I, under the auspices of the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body, had the opportunity of talking to the recruits at Garnerville in one of the earliest cohorts. One of the concerns that arose—I return to what my noble friend said about Sinn Fein pressure—was that recruits were being told specifically where they were going to go and where they were going to serve. They had some opportunity for consultation but, ultimately, it was going to be an order that they might have to go to an area which might not be ideal in terms of their own particular background.

We raised that same matter with the Policing Board in the afternoon and the Policing Board knew nothing of it and, initially, was disturbed. The nature of my question is whether, during the course of the past year, that problem has been solved.

Lord Maginnis of Drumglass

My Lords, I have some sympathy with Amendment No. 10 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, and his noble friends. I see the danger as enunciated by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. What is being attempted in order to resolve a short-term problem will not, in effect, resolve the underlying problem that exists within Northern Ireland.

I may, be guilty of going back too far in history, but perhaps I may remind your Lordships of the situation in the early 1970s when the Army was brought into Northern Ireland to resolve a problem. The Army was welcomed with open arms right across the community. It appeared to be that dodging the issue at home and bringing in the Army from Great Britain was to be the answer at that time. That did not last. One cannot, and should not, discount the nature of terrorism when endeavouring to resolve a problem in the short-term.

In effect, it was a very short period before the Army—who were initially being given cups of tea and had been welcomed at doors throughout both areas of Belfast and elsewhere—were being shot at and were being seen as legitimate targets because they underpinned, and were seen to underpin, the Britishness of Northern Ireland.

I have some sympathy with the amendment, but I fear that, ultimately, the same situation would arise. Those who are brought in, for the best of reasons, would be seen as sustaining something that terrorist elements oppose. Hence, they would become targets.

I do not know the answer; I wish I could tell your Lordships what the alternative is. I do not know what it is. But I simply urge caution in terms of short-term measures that may not actually tackle the underlying problem that we must face.

3.45 p.m.

Viscount Brookeborough

My Lords, I, too, have sympathy with Amendment No. 10. For once, I am delighted to say that I am entirely in favour of what the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, said, and thank him for his support.

We need help in recruiting policemen. I feel that the Government do not do everything in their power to help to resolve the situation in the short-term, although there are long-term aims. When we talk of lateral entry from other forces, there is no question but that certain issues could be eased. It is also true that a policeman from the Wild West of America cannot go into West Belfast and be a policeman there. One accepts that.

However, there must be a point at which a certain amount of police training is common to virtually all police forces. There would also be a certain amount of training that was simply either inappropriate or had to be re-run in the context of Northern Ireland. Although the Government may say that they could do something, I should like to see some action. We need measures that will provide properly qualified policemen.

The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, mentioned the training college at Garnerville, where new recruits may have to attend for a time. Lateral entry is perhaps for the more mature person who is a policeman already, as opposed to a raw recruit. Therefore, he may be married; he may be a family man; he may be 35 years-old; he may be even older. Garnerville is an absolute disgrace. On one occasion a mother of three had to go into one of these almost cell-like rooms in Garnerville, where she had to clean the floor and was given virtually no implements. Your Lordships may say that I am on the Policing Board and am therefore responsible for that. I shall turn to that point in a moment. The woman had to try to lift the dust with sellotape. "Degrading" is not the word for it.

It is not the Policing Board's fault. We are doing what we can. The Oversight Commissioner pointed out in his last report that the Government have done nothing about Garnerville in three and a half years. Proposals were put forward when the Policing Board was first set-up. The Government have side-stepped them in every way possible. The Maze prison site may be used for new facilities, and there are arguments for and against. But that has happened throughout. Perhaps the Maze site is inappropriate for this college.

However, the Government side-stepped the issue at first and said that the task had been given to the Executive. They said that they could do nothing. But as they have a responsibhlity for security, what would they do if, having given it to the Executive, they had then to get it back? That would be rather unusual.

However, as the Assembly is not operating at the moment the Government own the premises again. If they had wanted to, they could have done something about it and brought a proposal before Parliament, if that were necessary. They did absolutely nothing. It is a disgrace, and the Oversight Commissioner is fully aware of it. So is everyone else. We have been badly let down.

The Minister will tell us that a committee is trying to resolve the issue. The Oversight Commissioner says that the college cannot be in place for another three and a half years. It was a major item in the Patten report and so far as the Oversight Commissioner was concerned. If Patten is always right, why have the Government not provided the facility?

Lord Monson

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Hylton about the possible merits of recruiting people from the British mainland. However, I would totally oppose recruiting anyone from the United States, given the widespread support for militant republicanism in that country until recently. Furthermore, there is an amazing ignorance of the Province among Americans, even the most highly educated.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, in so far as I can, I shall try to confine myself to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran. It is not correct that nothing has been done by the Government about Garnerville. I accept that there are significant considerable deficiencies there. We have made £2 million available for new works and the refurbishment of existing facilities and we remain committed to the Patten recommendations for a new police college.

As I see it, there are two elements in the noble Lord's amendments. He says candidly that he recognises that the drafting may not be perfect. The first element is suspension of the 50:50 recruitment provisions. That is not going to help in the context of what he described as gaps in skill and experience because 50:50 refers to new entrants.

I remind your Lordships that the Chief Constable already has the power to appoint officers of any rank, from sergeant to chief superintendent, from Great Britain constabularies. He already has that power. He does not have the power in regard to constables and I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran. However, I understand that the Policing Board has already queried with the Chief Constable the scope for reducing the full period of training for experienced constables who join on a 50:50 basis. If the Chief Constable and the board want to put forward a proposal, certainly the Government would give it careful consideration and we can make a change through the regulations, not through the Act.

We have met the 50:50 target for police trainees—I gave the figures before lunch—and we have met the 50:50 target for police support staff appointments since September last year. As I say, we are always willing to be as flexible as possible within the parameters of the policy principles we have adopted. As regards other secondments, it is possible under Section 98 of the Police Act 1996 to allow for secondment at all ranks from UK forces. I understand the concerns, but I do not believe that this is the mechanism to deal with them.

The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, asked about atheists and others. At paragraph 15.10, the Patten report specifically recommended that recruitment be 50 per cent Catholic and 50 per cent Protestant or undetermined.

I agree with what the noble Lords, Lord Maginnis and Lord Glentoran, said about intimidation and the Patten report makes some strong comments on that. The Unionists and the SDLP have delivered in that regard and I repeat, as I have on so many other occasions, that it is for Sinn Fein also to join with the Roman Catholic hierarchy and encourage Roman Catholics generally to join the police force and serve the public in that way.

The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, raised a particular question. I was aware at the time—it was about 12 months ago—of concerns but I have no information about current concerns. However, I shall research the matter and write to the noble Lord when I have material. I shall write to him even if there is no further material.

I shall not get involved in the question of whether someone from the Wild West ought to be stationed in west Belfast—nor shall I speculate on whether such law officers in the Wild West would wish to volunteer.

Lord Glentoran

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for that response. Between now and Third Reading I shall carry out more research into the matter to ascertain where we are and what is required. If it seems appropriate, I shall table a more satisfactory amendment. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 18 [Fixed-term appointments]:

[Amendment No. 30 not moved.]

Lord Smith of Clifton moved Amendment No. 31: After Clause 18, insert the following new clause—

"DISCRIMINATION IN APPOINTMENTS: EXPIRY, RENEWAL AND REPEAL OF TEMPORARY PROVISIONS In section 47(3) of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 (c. 32) (expiry, renewal and repeal of temporary provisions), for "three years" substitute "one year".

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 31 I shall speak also to Amendment No. 32. The purpose of the first amendment resonates with what many noble Lords have said about the difficulties that the 50:50 recruitment process creates. We are all committed to it but we need to look at it fairly regularly in order to see whether and how it is operating. That is why we suggest an opportunity to monitor the situation and to discuss it annually instead of every three years, as provided in the original Act of 2000.

Amendment No. 32 is tabled in order to give a designated end date so that all parties—not only political parties but also the agencies which are concerned with policing in Northern Ireland—have a fixed point beyond which, one hopes, it will not be necessary to extend the provision. The Patten report suggested that it should be for only eight years. Our amendment suggests 10 years, two more than envisaged by Patten. We are trying to reflect the report's original intention of ending the provision completely after 10 years because if, in the ninth year, it were extended by another three years it could roll on. We want to give a signal to all those people concerned with policing in Northern Ireland that it should definitely stop after 10 years. I beg to move.

Lord Glentoran

My Lords, I supported the first part of the amendment in Grand Committee. I see no reason to change my mind. It seems a sensible and useful amendment.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, I sympathise with the motives and thinking which lie behind the amendments. There is already a good deal of flexibility. I remind the House that the first review will occur in the earlier part of 2004, so we are not far away.

In Grand Committee, I said that an annual review would be cumbersome. I shall develop the reasons. The time it takes for applications to be made and recruitment to follow has been halved from the year or so it took pre-Patten to about six months. But that is only before recruits enter training. They spend 20 weeks at the foundation faculty obtaining an accredited qualification; they have another two months training in other policing skills; and they spend about 18 further months as probationer constables. Perhaps I put it clumsily, but in management terms a review every year could not work. Those figures underline the fact that having a review after not longer than three years—that is within the Secretary of State's power—is about right.

We have had success. In each of the first four campaigns the applicants—I round up the figures—numbered 7,500, 4,900, 4,700 and 4,300. The levels of Roman Catholic applications are 35 per cent, 39 per cent, 35 per cent and 35 per cent. I believe that it would be ill-advised to tinker too much at this stage. I stress that the review must take place in not more than three years but the Secretary of State can have a review sooner than that.

In paragraph 15.10 of the report, Patten states: We believe that the ratio of recruits should be kept to 50:50, at least for the ten years of the model". Therefore, I repeat that I do sympathise with what the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, has said, but at this stage, we ought to leave things as they are.

I can say, however, that when it comes to the review, I shall ensure—it may be a false assumption that I will still be doing this job—that there is ample time to look at these issues, which are intricate and important.

Lord Smith of Clifton

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for that assurance. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 32 not moved.]

Clause 19 [Disclosure of information and holding of inquiries]:

[Amendments Nos. 33 to 35 not moved.]

Clause 20 [Police powers for designated police support staff]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 36: Page 12, line 10, leave out "subsection (1)" and insert "this section

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, in moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 38 to 41, 43 to 50, 70 and 71, 73, 81 to 84 and 88 and 89. This is a substantial group of amendments, which have been designed to improve the wording of the Bill. The police have requested amendments to enable them to enter into contracts with the private sector for the provision of services relating to the detention or escort of persons who have been arrested or are otherwise in custody. The Chief Constable may then designate any person who is an employee of the contractor, either as a detention officer or an escort officer. Therefore, the amendments are in line with Section 39 of the Police Reform Act 2002.

I repeat that this provision comes at the request of the Chief Constable. It will allow him to take forward proposals for greater civilianisation in the police service. I hope that that chimes with what noble Lords have said earlier. Possibly, one of the better consequences may be the freeing of police officers for other police duties. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Shutt of Greetland moved Amendment No. 37: Page 12, line 15, leave out "adequate" and insert "full

The noble Lord said: My Lords, we are back to words again. Clause 20 suggests that there should be some training for people who are police support staff. Subsection (2)(c) states that, the person has received adequate training". The amendment would delete the word "adequate" and insert the word "full". There is a sense in which the word "adequate" is inadequate. The word is often prefaced by the word "barely", and barely adequate is certainly not correct.

When we considered the matter in Committee, the noble and learned Lord suggested that the provision should be that the person had received the "appropriate" training, which would be a better word. My amendment would make it absolutely clear that those who are hired would have full training in the work that they are required to do. That would be far more appropriate and would give confidence that members of the police support staff are fully trained to do the work. I beg to move.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, said, this issue was raised in Committee. The Northern Ireland Office officials prudently anticipated that an amendment might be tabled at this stage. The NIO has sought reassurance from the Chief Constable that all designated persons will receive appropriate training that is fit for the purpose. I hope that that meets the concerns expressed by the noble Lord. As he knows, adequate training is replicated in the Police Reform Act. I hope that the fact that such a step has been taken, together with my categoric assurance on behalf of the Chief Constable, will meet the concerns of the noble Lord.

Lord Shutt of Greetland

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his response. In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 38 to 41: Page 12, line 17, after "conferred" insert "or imposed Page 12, line 18, leave out "designated person" and insert "person designated under this section Page 12, line 21, after "designation" insert "under this section Page 12, line 23, leave out "designated person" and insert "person designated under this section

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 42: Page 12, line 24, after "are" insert "any or all of

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, Clause 20(5) describes the powers and duties that are capable of being applied by designation. The amendment simply replicates the provisions in the Police Reform Act so that particular provisions of the schedule can be applied to the designated person. This is intended to give the Chief Constable flexibility in which provision should apply. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 43 to 49: Page 12, line 26, after "designated" insert "under this section Page 12, line 27, after "designated" insert "under this section Page 12, line 28, after "designated" insert "under this section Page 12, line 29, leave out "designated person" and insert "person designated under this section Page 12, line 36, leave out "designated person" and insert "person designated under this section Page 13, line 1, leave out "designated person" and insert "person designated under this section Page 13, line 8, leave out subsections (11) and (12).

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 50: After Clause 20, insert the following new clause—

"POLICE POWERS FOR DESIGNATED CONTRACTED-OUT STAFF

(1) This section applies if the Board has entered into a contract with a person ("the contractor") for the provision of services relating to the detention or escort of persons who have been arrested or are otherwise in custody.

(2) The Chief Constable may designate an employee of the contractor as an officer of either or both of these descriptions—

  1. (a) detention officer;
  2. (b) escort officer.

(3) The Chief Constable may designate a person under this section only if he is satisfied that these requirements are met—

  1. (a) the person is a suitable person to carry out the functions for the purposes of which he is to be designated;
  2. (b) the person is capable of effectively carrying out those functions;
  3. (c) the person has received adequate training in the carrying out of those functions and in the exercise of the powers and performance of the duties to be conferred or imposed on him by his designation;
  4. (d) the contractor is a fit and proper person to supervise the carrying out of the functions for the purposes of which the person is to be designated.

(4) A person designated under this section has—

  1. (a) the powers conferred on him by his designation;
  2. (b) the duties imposed on him by his designation.

(5) A designation under this section may confer powers or impose duties on a person only by applying the powers or duties to him.

(6) The powers and duties that may be applied to a person designated under this section by his designation are any or all of those specified in the applicable Part of Schedule 1.

(7) The applicable Part of Schedule I is—

  1. (a) Part 2, in the case of a person designated under this section as a detention officer;
  2. (b) Part 3, in the case of a person designated under this section as an escort officer.

(8) If a power is conferred or a duty imposed on a person designated under this section by his designation—

  1. (a) the power or duty does not authorise or require him to engage in any conduct otherwise than in the course of his employment as an employee of the contractor;
  2. (b) the power may be conferred or the duty imposed subject to restrictions or conditions specified in the designation.

(9) Subsection (10) applies in relation to the exercise of a power by a person designated under this section in reliance on his designation if the power is one which, if exercised by a police officer, includes or is supplemented by a power to use reasonable force.

(10) The designated person has the same entitlement to use reasonable force as a police officer would have if the power were exercised by him.

(11) A designation under this section, unless it is previously withdrawn or ceases to have effect under subsection (12), shall remain in force for such period as may be specified in the designation; but it may be renewed at any time with effect from the time when it would otherwise expire.

(12) A designation under this section shall cease to have effect—

  1. (a) if the designated person ceases to be an employee of the contractor; or
  2. (b) if the contract between the Board and the contractor is terminated or expires."

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 1 [Powers exercisable by designated police support staff]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 51 to 53: Page 16, line 10, leave out from "arrest)" to end of line. Page 16, line 12, leave out "any such Page 16, line 20, leave out from second "person)" to "as" in line 21.

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendments Nos. 51 to 53, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 56 and 57, 59 to 61, 63 and 64, 66 to 68 and 72.

These amendments will remove references to "relevant police area" in the Bill. Because of the Bill's limited extent, it is sufficient to restrict the exercise of the powers in question to Northern Ireland, despite the fact that the powers are conferred by statute with a United Kingdom extent. The "relevant police area" references replicate the Police Reform Act when it might be necessary to move a prisoner from one constabulary area to another within England and Wales. Because there is only one police area in Northern Ireland, that phrase is not appropriate. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 54 and 55: Page 20, line 7, at end insert— (2) Article 5 of the Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1988 (S.I. 1988/1987 (N.I. 20)) (consequences of failure by arrested person to account for objects etc.) applies (without prejudice to the effect of any designation applying paragraph 8A) in the case of a person arrested in exercise of the power exercisable by virtue of this paragraph as it applies in the case of a person arrested by a constable. Page 20, line 33, at end insert—

"Power to require arrested person to account for certain matters

8A Where a designation applies this paragraph to a person—

  1. (a) he has the powers of a constable under Articles 5(1)(c) and 6(1)(c) of the Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1988 (S.I. 1988/1987 (N.I. 20)) to request a person who has been arrested by a constable or by a person to whom paragraph 7 applies to account for the presence of an object, substance or mark or for the presence of the arrested person at a particular place; and
  2. (b) the references to a constable in Articles 5(1)(b) and (c) and (4) and 6(1)(b) and (c) and (3) of that Order accordingly include references to the person to whom this paragraph is applied."

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of the amendments is to apply Articles 5 and 6 of the Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1988 to designated investigating officers. Those powers replicate the powers given to designated officers in England and Wales under the Police Reform Act 2002. It was initially thought that there was no equivalent to the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act in Northern Ireland legislation. However, we have subsequently discovered that this is not the case in that equivalent provisions are contained in Articles 5 and 6, to which I referred. These amendments enable a designated investigating officer to question a convicted person under those articles about facts which may be attributable to the person's participation in the offence—for example, presence at a particular place at a relevant time or the presence of potentially incriminating objects such as a mark. They may also warn the suspect about the capacity of the court to draw adverse inferences.

The effect of Amendment No. 54 is that a court may draw similar inferences in the case of a person arrested by a designated person under paragraph 7 of Schedule 1 to the Bill. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 56 and 57: Page 20, line 44, leave out "in the relevant police area Page 21, line 1, leave out sub-paragraph (2).

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 58: Page 21, line 33, leave out paragraph 13.

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 91 is also in this group.

Noble Lords will recall that in Committee I promised to look again at this matter to make it explicit that so far as concerns civilians, only doctors or nurses could be involved in this work. It was never our intention that civilians other than doctors or nurses would be involved in this work. To clarify this matter, I propose to amend Article 56 of the PACE order by means of this new clause.

I appreciate that the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, is unable to be present today. I pay tribute to the fact that she was alert enough to find this ambiguity. I hope that I have pleased noble Lords by putting it right. I beg to move.

Lord Shutt of Greetland

My Lords, we are grateful for the amendment and will pass the Minister's kind words to the noble Baroness, Lady Harris.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 59 to 61: Page 22, line 14, leave out "in the relevant police area Page 22, line 41, leave out "in the relevant police area Page 23, line 10, leave out "in the relevant police area

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendment No. 62 not moved.]

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 63: Page 24, line 5, leave out "in the relevant police area

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 64 to 68: Page 24, line 7, leave out "in that or any other police area Page 24, line 8, leave out "or" and insert— (aa) from that police station to any other place that is specified by the custody officer; Page 24, line 11, leave out "in that area or in another police area Page 24, line 12, leave out sub-paragraph (2). Page 24, line 20, leave out "or (2)

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendment No. 69 not moved.]

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 70 to 72: Page 25, line 4, leave out "20(1)" and insert "20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff) Page 25, line 5, leave out "20(1)" and insert "20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff) Page 25, leave out lines 8 and 9.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 21 [Designated police support staff amendments]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 73: Page 13, line 13, leave out "section 20" and insert "sections 20 and (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff)

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 74: After Clause 21, insert the following new clause—

"DESIGNATIONS: SUPPLEMENTARY

(1) Subsection (2) applies if, in reliance on his designation under section 20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out stuff), a person exercises or performs a power or duty in relation to another or purports to do so.

(2) The designated person must produce his designation to the other if requested to do so.

(3) A failure to comply with subsection (2) does not make the exercise or performance of the power or duty invalid.

(4) The Chief Constable may at any time modify or withdraw a person's designation under section 20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff) by notice to him.

(5) If the Chief Constable modifies or withdraws a person's designation under section (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff), he must send a copy of the notice of the modification or withdrawal to the contractor responsible for supervising the designated person in the carrying out of the functions for the purposes of which the designation was granted.

(6) In subsection (5) "contractor" means a person who has entered into a contract with the Board such as is mentioned in section (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff) (1)."

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 74 is to include the new clause as printed on the Marshalled List. The purpose of this clause is to replicate supplementary provisions contained in Section 42 of the Police Reform Act 2002 which were not in the draft Bill.

The effect is to give the Chief Constable powers to modify or withdraw a designation at any time. If the Chief Constable withdraws the designation of a contracted-out individual, he must notify the relevant contractor and, further, require the designated person to produce his designation on request.

It makes clear that a failure to comply with such a request does not make the exercise or performance of that power or duty invalid. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

4.15 p.m.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 75: After Clause 21, insert the following new clause—

"COMPLAINTS AND MISCONDUCT

(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision for the handling of—

  1. (a) complaints relating to the carrying out by a person designated under section 20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff) of any of the functions mentioned in subsection (2);
  2. (b) instances of misconduct involving the carrying out by such a person of any of those functions.

(2) The functions are those for the purposes of which any power or duty is conferred or imposed on the person by his designation.

(3) Regulations under subsection (1) may in particular provide that any provision of Part 7 of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 1998 (c. 32) is to apply, with such modifications as may be prescribed by the regulations, with respect to persons designated under section 20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff).

(4) Before making regulations under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must consult—

  1. (a) the Ombudsman;
  2. (b) the Board;
  3. (c) the Chief Constable;
  4. (d) the Police Association;
  5. (e) any other person or body appearing to him to have an interest in the matter."

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, after Clause 21 I propose the insertion of this new clause. This is to give the ombudsman power to deal from commencement with complaints against designated civilians, including contracted-out staff, given that they will be exercising limited police powers as outlined in Schedule 1 to the Bill.

At present, in England and Wales complaints against police authority employed support staff are handled at the discretion of chief officers, but when the new complaints system comes into force on 1st April 2004 all police authority employees will have an extended complaints regime.

We do not at present see the case for further extending the ombudsman's remit for investigating complaints against civilians employed by the Chief Constable beyond those of designated powers, as to the reason I have given. They will be exercising limited police powers and, therefore, should fall appropriately within the ombudsman's remit. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 76: After Clause 21, insert the following new clause—

"LIABILITY FOR UNLAWFUL CONDUCT

(1) For the purposes of determining liability for the unlawful conduct of employees of the Board, conduct by an employee of the Board in reliance or purported reliance on a designation under section 20 must be taken to be conduct in the course of his employment by the Board; and, in the case of a tort, the Board accordingly falls to be treated as a joint tortfeasor.

(2) For the purposes of determining liability for the unlawful conduct of persons employed in the civil service, conduct by such a person in reliance or purported reliance on a designation under section 20 must be taken to be conduct in the course of his employment in the civil service; and, in the case of a tort, the Department of Finance and Personnel accordingly falls to be treated as a joint tortfeasor.

(3) For the purposes of determining liability for the unlawful conduct of employees of a contractor, conduct by such an employee in reliance or purported reliance on a designation under section (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff) must be taken to be conduct in the course of his employment by the contractor; and, in the case of a tort, the contractor accordingly falls to be treated as a joint tortfeasor.

(4) In subsection (3) "contractor" means a person who has entered into a contract with the Board such as is mentioned in section (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff) (1)."

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the amendment relates to liability for unlawful conduct. It is intended to replicate a supplementary provision contained in Section 42 of the Police Reform Act 2002; namely, for the purpose of determining liability for unlawful conduct in that conduct in reliance of a designation shall be taken as conduct in the course of employment by the designated person's employer—whether that be the Board, civil service or contractor".

I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 77: After Clause 21, insert the following new clause—

"NOTIFIABLE MEMBERSHIPS

(1) Section 51 of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 (c. 32) (notifiable memberships of police officers) applies in relation to persons designated under section 20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff) as it applies in relation to police officers.

(2) As so applied, that section has effect as if the reference in subsection (1) to the duties of a police officer were to the functions for the purposes of which any power or duty is conferred or imposed on a person by his designation under section 20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff)."

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of the amendment is to apply Section 51 of the 2000 Act, notifiable memberships, to designated police support staff, including contracted-out staff. These individuals are exercising limited police powers and it is right and proper that Section 51 should apply. I am able to say that the Chief Constable agrees with this view. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 78: After Clause 21, insert the following new clause—

"CODE OF ETHICS

(1) The Secretary of State may by order apply the code of ethics issued by the Board under section 52 of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 (c. 32) to persons designated under section 20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff).

(2) An order under subsection (1) may apply the code with such modifications as are specified in the order.

(3) If an order is made under subsection (1) applying the code to a person designated under section 20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff) he must be guided by the code as it applies to him in carrying out the functions for the purposes of which any power or duty is conferred or imposed on him by his designation."

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords., the amendment is designed to give the Secretary of State the power by order to extend the application of Section 52 of the 2000 Act, the Code of Ethics, to designated support staff, including contracted-out staff.

The code—I understand that the board intends to publish it in the near future—has provisions relating to integrity, behaviour and the care of those persons in detention. These have a direct read-across to duties undertaken by civilians. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 2 [Designated police support staff: Amendments]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 79: Page 25, line 29, leave out "only

The noble and learned Lord said.: My Lords, in moving the amendment, I speak also to Amendment No. 80.

At present, paragraphs 4 and 5 of Schedule 2 specify that the powers in question—taking fingerprints and non-intimate samples—are currently excisable only by a constable. The provisions of the PACE (Northern Ireland) Order to which these refer are silent as to who may exercise the powers. Having clarified the position under the order, paragraphs 14 and 17 of Schedule 1 to the Bill then enable those powers to be conferred on a designated person. The amendment is designed to remove ambiguity and introduce clarity. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 80 to 84: Page 25, line 33, leave out "only Page 26, line 2, leave out "20(1)" and insert "20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff) Page 26, line 11, leave out "20(1)" and insert "20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff) Page 26, line 19, leave out "20(1)" and insert "20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff) Page 26, line 27, leave out "20(1)" and insert "20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff)

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 22 [Assaults on, and obstruction of designated police support staff]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 85 to 87: Page 13, line 25, leave out "(4)" and insert "(3) Page 13, line 26, leave out "(5)" and insert "(3A) Page 13, line 30, leave out "(6)" and insert "(3B)

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the amendments put right drafting errors. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 88: Page 13, line 31, leave out "20(1)" and insert "20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff)

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 23 [Impersonation etc. of designated police support staff]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 89: Page 14, line 8, leave out "20(1)" and insert "20 or (Police powers for designated contracted-out staff)

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 90: After Clause 23, insert the following new clause—

"DESIGNATED PERSONS: INTERPRETATION

(1) This section applies for the interpretation of sections 20 to 23.

(2) "Conduct" includes omissions and statements.

(3) Expressions used in those sections and in the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 (c. 32) have the same meanings in those sections as they have in that Act."

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 90 is a drafting amendment to bring about a more effective interpretation. It provides for the definition of conduct which is taken from the Police Reform Act 2002. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 91: Before Clause 24, insert the following new clause—

"INTIMATE SEARCHES

(1) In Article 56 of the Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 (S.I. 1989/1341 (N.I. 12)) (intimate searches) after paragraph (5) insert— (5A) A person may use reasonable force, if necessary, in carrying out an intimate search as mentioned in paragraph (4) or (5).

(2) Subsection (1) comes into force in accordance with provision made by the Secretary of State by order."

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 24 [Persons authorised to take intimate samples]:

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 92: Page 14, line 39, leave out subsections (7) and (8).

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 92, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 93. The purpose of the amendment is to amend a drafting error to reflect that subordinate legislation relating to policing is made by statutory rule and not statutory instrument, an elementary error spotted by all of your Lordships. Amendment No. 93 clarifies the position. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 93: Before Clause 26, insert the following new clause—

"ORDERS AND REGULATIONS

(1) Any power of the Secretary of State to make orders or regulations under this Act is exercisable by statutory rule for the purposes of the Statutory Rules (Northern Ireland) Order 1979 (1979 N.I. 12).

(2) Orders or regulations under this Act—

  1. (a) may make different provision for different purposes;
  2. (b) may include supplementary, incidental, saving or transitional provisions.

(3) A statutory rule made under this Act (other than one containing an order under section (Intimate searches)(2) or 24(6)) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament in like manner as a statutory instrument and section 5 of the Statutory Instruments Act 1946 (c. 36) applies accordingly."

On Question amendment agreed to.

Lord Glentoran moved Amendment No. 94: After Clause 28, insert the following new clause—

"COMMENCEMENT

(1) This Act shall come into force on such day as the Secretary of State may by order appoint.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to this section or to sections 27 and 28.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I apologise for the late tabling of this amendment. Throughout the Grand Committee debates, I frequently referred to the appropriateness of the timing of various matters in the Bill. I know that the amendment's wording is not quite right. When we took it to the Clerks' Department, they told us that it was not acceptable in its present format and there was some rather hasty editing. I wanted the date of the commencement of the Bill to be debated.

Throughout our consideration of the Bill, I have made it clear that I disagree with the Government on timing. With the decommissioning process incomplete, we should like Section 3 of the Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997 satisfied and verified by the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning before any of the provisions come into force. With half the executive still not behind the Policing Board, I am disinclined to push through more technical legislation on policing. The bottom line is that we are, as I have said earlier, putting the people of Northern Ireland at risk by taking chances with their policing. If the Bill and other measures are implemented, we shall have in place a superb set of policing structures for a normal, quiet and peaceful, dare I say, Surrey-like society.

I give notice that I intend to withdraw the amendment today, but that I shall return to the matter at Third Reading. I beg to move.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, on the basis of what the noble Lord has helpfully said, it is probably better if I respond to his detailed argument when he returns to the subject at Third Reading. I undertake to do that.

Lord Glentoran

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for that response. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.