Drivers and Mobile Phones (Hansard, 23 January 2003)

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the Government have noted the findings of the Direct Line research published last March. The Department for Transport issued a consultation document on 20th August last year seeking views on a proposal to prohibit the use of hand-held mobile phones when driving. The consultation period closed on 25th November. More than 1,000 responses have been received and these are now being considered. An announcement on the results of consultation will be made as soon as possible.

§ Lord Bradshaw
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and the prospect of some action by the 881 Government. Is he aware that the Direct Line reports states that the use of hand-held mobile telephones is far more dangerous than driving at the alcohol limit? When drivers exceed the alcohol limit they incur penalties.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I am aware of it. That is why my response on our knowledge of the Direct Line report was so neutral, and why I said only that we noted it. What the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, says is true, but it would be wrong to conclude that it is less damaging or illegal to drive while under the influence of drink or drugs. That is a message not just for Christmas but throughout the year. It must be reinforced on all possible occasions.

§ Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that health and safety legislation imposes on employers a duty to provide a safe working environment for their employees. But is it not the case that many firms not only fail to offer advice to their employees about using mobile phones when driving but that they regard the car as an extension of the office and encourage staff to make calls while on the move? Should it not be a priority to discourage that practice?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, as one who previously employed salesmen to whom we issued mobile phones—hands-free sets, I hasten to add—I acknowledge the force of what the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, says. This is one of the issues that must be considered in the consultation process in which we have been involved and in the conclusions we draw from it.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the subject was raised in this House as long ago as 1997 when the Government's response was that it was for the police to decide whether the distraction materially reduced a driver's care and attention? Is that still the situation? Some telephone conversations can be very distracting.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, more recently, the police have advised us that they have adequate powers, under regulation 104 of the Construction and Use Regulations 1986, to prosecute anyone who is not in control of a vehicle. That could result in a prosecution for careless or dangerous driving. Things have moved on since then; not least, the enormous increase in the number of mobile phones in this country. We have undertaken consultation because of increasing pressure of that kind.

§ Viscount Astor
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Mayor of London is encouraging payment for congestion charges by using text messages on mobile telephones? Does he think that this is a contribution to road safety?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I know no more about the matter than I have read in the press. 882 The report that I read said that the Mayor had accompanied his encouragement with the opinion that text messages should not be made while driving.

§ Lord Redesdale
My Lords, is the Minister aware that evidence given by the police indicates that fines will not deter drivers from using mobile phones? However, points on the licence would deter them. Therefore, we should perhaps move straight to points on the licence for the use of mobile phones.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, may or may not know that the RAC published a report on this subject only this week. It comes to the conclusion, supported by 90 per cent of respondents, that there should be a ban on hand-held mobile phones and that it should be a comparable offence to speeding—in other words, a combination of fines and penalty points.

§ Lord Swinfen
My Lords, what would be the position of the emergency services who may well have to use mobile phones or radios in the course of their duties while driving?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I would be astonished if the emergency services were reduced to using hand-held mobile phones.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, while it is not only reasonable but highly desirable to ban the use of mobile phones while driving, would it not be going too far to ban their use when a driver is stuck at a traffic jam with his handbrake on?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, that is one of the issues which the Government are considering in the consultation process. If use was banned while a driver was stopped in a traffic jam, we would not be alone. Germany has such a ban. I do not believe we should anticipate the results of the consultation. We should not rule out a complete ban while in control of a vehicle.

§ Lord Methuen
My Lords, does the Minister agree that provincial taxi drivers are particularly bad offenders at using mobile phones while on the move?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I do not use provincial taxi drivers, so I do not have any direct experience. If taxi drivers use the phone as a work tool, it would be particularly irresponsible if it were a hand-held phone. In all this talk about the difference between handheld and hand-free phones, I should point out that the 883 Direct Line research did show that using a hand-free phone also reduced the response times of drivers significantly.

§ Lord Burnham
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that if hand-free telephones are regarded as so dangerous, then so is any form of conversation. Will he not, therefore, prohibit talking while in a car?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, again this is a matter for consultation.

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
I cannot stand up and think al the same time.
My Lords, the evidence I have just given from the Direct Line research ought to be taken seriously.

§ Baroness Hayman
My Lords, whatever the legislative framework—whether we adopt a new one or continue with the assurances I gave the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, when he asked the original Question—is it not true that reducing the use of mobile phones while people are driving will depend on enforcement which, in turn, depends on the resources that the police are able to devote to the enforcement of traffic offences?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, indeed it does. It is because of the lack of enforcement of the existing offence under the construction and use regulations that there has been this shift of emphasis towards a direct ban. The enforcement issue is particularly important for hand-free phones. How can someone outside a car tell whether a hand-free phone is being used?