HL Deb 17 December 2003 vol 655 cc1148-50

2.55 p.m.

Lord Renton of Mount Harry

asked Her Majesty's Government: Whether they remain confident of the validity of their key performance targets.

Lord Davies of Oldham

My Lords, the Government set key performance targets as part of public service agreements which have already delivered higher educational standards, shorter hospital waiting times and reduced crime. The PSA framework is one of many public service reforms that puts the UK at the forefront of international best practice. The Government are currently investigating ways to achieve greater decentralised delivery and responsive local and regional services, consistent with a clear framework of national standards.

Lord Renton

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer, I have to say that I find it gloriously over-optimistic. May I remind him of Goodhart's law, promulgated by the eminent economist, Charles Goodhart? When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. Why? Because it leads to all sorts of tricks determined simply to achieve the target.

May I give the Minister the example of Lewes prison? For a long time, it was 133 out of 135 in the good prison list. Then, over two years, it suddenly became number 4, temporarily. Why? Because a new prison governor arrived who knew which boxes to tick—no suicides, no escapes. But equally, prison visitors tell me, there have been no long-term improvements in the prison. Is it not just that which leads to the huge cynicism about the Government's claims for public services?

Lord Davies of Oldham

Well, my Lords, I do not think there is huge cynicism about targets. I think everybody recognises that targets are a very important part of any organisation's achievements. They certainly are for government. Why does the noble Lord think that 30 countries, including those in the European Community, are beating a path to the Treasury door to look at the way in which we are improving public services, measuring them and increasing accountability, which must be a major aim of any democratic administration?

Baroness Noakes

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the achievement of targets needs to be independently monitored? If so, can he explain why the Government have just stripped the Commission for Integrated Transport of that role in relation to their transport policies?

Lord Davies of Oldham

My Lords, the way in which targets are monitored is subject to very intensive scrutiny. The noble Baroness will be aware that both the Audit Commission and the Select Committee on Public Accounts have looked very closely at government targets. It is not the case that there is no independent scrutiny of Government achievement against their targets. In the spirit of openness, and the recognition that no target would be meaningful if it were easily achieved, the Government have indicated areas in which they recognise they are falling short of certain targets in very limited areas.

Lord McColl of Dulwich

My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is very easy to reach waiting list targets when it comes to being seen in out-patient clinics? The hospitals will tell patients, "We can't put you on the waiting list for an out-patient appointment now, but if you contact us in two months, we will do it". It is a very easy way of achieving the targets.

Lord Davies of Oldham

My Lords, because there has been a criticism of some aspects of the out-patients list, we are looking again at that crucial question of the way in which national targets are interpreted on the ground. As I emphasised in my initial Answer, the next stage in our thinking must clearly be to look at the targets which are set for front-line workers in order that they achieve realistic objectives consistent with the strategy they are following against the national perspective. Waiting lists fit into that category.

Lord Newby

My Lords, we welcome the Minister's statement that the Government are in favour of greater decentralised target setting. Have he and the Government taken note of the recent NAO report about the way in which the RDAs operate, and targets operate in that respect? The report said that stakeholders—that is, those who actually have to make the thing work—report a sense of ownership of regional economic strategies but not of national targets. Will he therefore urge his colleagues in government to implement the NAO recommendation in the report that the regional development agencies target framework should be greatly simplified?

Lord Davies of Oldham

My Lords, I largely agree with the noble Lord. The National Audit Office report, which was of very great use both to the Government and the nation in that area of effective administration, identified that we needed to move away from the emphasis on the central target position to the more devolved one. The regional development agencies have a crucial role to play in that, so I largely agree with the sentiment that the noble Lord expressed.

Lord Renton of Mount Harry

My Lords, I have a further supplementary question. I am in favour of tuition fees, because they make a lot of sense. I declare an interest as a member of the council of Sussex University. Why do the Government stick to the target that 50 per cent of all those who take GCSE exams should go to university? That takes no account at all of the number of young people who have the brains, the ability or the inclination to go to university. Surely, it would be wise to drop that target.

Lord Davies of Oldham

My Lords, the House is aware of the extensive expansion of university education over the past two decades. The noble Lord could have expressed exactly that sentiment when the number attending higher education was as low as 25 or 30 per cent. It is now up to 41 per cent. We are talking not about school leavers but about people between the ages of 18 and 30 experiencing higher education, and we are saying that half our nation should aspire to having that opportunity. That is from the perspective of most of our international competitors from advanced nations having far higher participation in higher education than even 50 per cent.