HL Deb 03 December 2003 vol 655 cc306-9

2.57 p.m.

Viscount Goschen

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether there is any government involvement in the "Big Conversation" initiative.

Baroness Amos

My Lords, the Labour Party is consulting its members and the wider community on the Government's progress and challenges ahead. This is a Labour Party initiative and not a government initiative.

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, in that case, why are Government Ministers praying in aid this initiative from the Dispatch Box? That happened on Monday in connection with the smoking issue. It gave it an aura of government respectability; whereas we know that this is in fact merely a cynical exercise designed to produce helpful answers. Does the noble Baroness agree with the description by the noble Lord, Lord Hattersley, of this exercise as a "confidence trick"?

Baroness Amos

My Lords, I do not think that it is a confidence trick, having done one of these exercises myself on Monday. It was extraordinarily helpful because there was a great deal of support for what the Government are doing. It was very good to hear it.

The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth

My Lords, with the welcome presence in the Gallery of the right reverend the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, perhaps a little bit of Scottish logic chopping is in order. Do the Government agree that conversations can be formal and informal? They can take place in many ways, but must be two-way. Do the Government also agree that in real terms this conversation has been taking place since the Labour Party assumed government in 1997? Do they further agree that perhaps what is required now is a little more listening and a little more precision?

Baroness Amos

My Lords, I entirely agree with the right reverend Prelate that actually there has been an ongoing conversation. That is precisely why the Labour Party won such major victories in 1997 and 2001.I also agree with the right reverend Prelate that it is important that the Government listen. One objective of the exercise is that the Labour Party, in consulting on the Government's programme, is keen to ensure that individuals and the community as a whole understand the basis for decision-making. But we also want to hear the public's views on what we are doing.

Lord McNally

My Lords, although I accept the Minister's assurance that that impressive document is all the Labour Party's own work, will she concede that it closely parallels an exercise recently published by the Cabinet Office, produced by civil servants? As for the exercise itself, I again pray in aid that reluctant Peer of creation, the noble Lord, Lord Hattersley, who said that the dialogue is a monologue in disguise. Considering that we have a Prime Minister who has no reverse gear, is not the noble Lord absolutely right?

Baroness Amos

My Lords, given that my noble friend's article has been cited at me twice, it is important that everyone reads the article to the end, because in fact he supported the exercise.

The Countess of Mar

My Lords, does the initiative mean that Members of Parliament are now redundant, except as Lobby fodder?

Baroness Amos

My Lords, I hope that we would never say that Members of Parliament were redundant. Members of Parliament have an important role to play, but it is also important for the Labour Party to hear what people in the community and our party members feel about Labour Party policy.

Lord Haskel

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that this morning we heard that first reports indicate that people are actually anxious to discuss policies that affect their daily lives and that are fair? Does she agree that if noble Lords opposite carried out a similar exercise, they would learn about the unfairness of their policies for health and education?

Baroness Amos

My Lords, my noble friend is quite right. Not only would the party opposite learn a great deal, it would have to start taking lessons from us about how to win elections.

Lord Baker of Dorking

My Lords, will the Minister share her feelings with us and tell us what it feels like to be a member of a Government who have been in power since 1997 and are now to go out to the country to determine what they believe and what they should do? What does it feel like to be in charge of a vacuum?

Baroness Amos

My Lords, I am absolutely delighted to be part of a Government who have not only a clear set of policies to deal with the challenges facing this country but the confidence to go out to talk to the people, through their party, about the challenges facing the country for the future.

Lord Campbell-Savours

My Lords—

Lord Phillips of Sudbury

My Lords—

Lord Grocott

My Lords, there is time for both noble Lords, so let us be patient. Let us hear first from the Labour Benches—I always like to hear from these Benches.

Lord Campbell-Savours

My Lords, is it not true that if the governing party of the day in 1989 and 1990 had conducted a big conversation with the people, we should not have had the poll tax or the privatisation of British Rail, both of which have been complete disasters?

Baroness Amos

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to agree with my noble friend.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury

My Lords, will the Government institute the really big conversation that the country desperately needs, which is a conversation about the European Union in general and the constitution in particular? Will the Government send to every household in this country an impartial, plain English explanation of the issues behind the constitution, so that the conversation can be meaningful?

Baroness Amos

My Lords, the noble Lord is right. We need to do more to help people to understand the issues involved in our relationship with the European Union. My colleagues are working on that. As for the issues of constitutional change, if the noble Lord reads the document, he will see that it contains questions relating to constitutional change.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, will the noble Baroness, the Leader of the House, be kind enough draw to the attention of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth to the Companion to the Standing Orders, in which he will read that it is inappropriate to refer to people in the galleries?

The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth

My Lords, I apologise.