§ 3 p.m.
§ Lord Janner of Braunstoneasked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will introduce legislation to require all coaches to be fitted with seat belts for both drivers and passengers and all drivers and passengers to be required to wear these seat belts.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, all new coaches are now required to have seat belts fitted in all forward and rear facing seats. Drivers and front seat passengers in all vehicles must use seat belts where provided. An EU directive under discussion will require passengers aged three and over in the rear of coaches to use the seat belts provided.
§ Lord Janner of BraunstoneMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer but can he please tell us how many lives he estimates have been lost, and how many injuries suffered, through people in such coaches not being safely belted in? If, as he says, there is a law that certain passengers on coaches where seat belts are provided must be belted in, what steps are the Government taking to enforce that law? How many people have been prosecuted and with what result? In order to prevent deaths and injuries, some of which have occurred in recent disasters, will my noble friend issue an instruction that drivers must not depart without ensuring that they and all passengers aboard are safely belted into place?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, in each of the past five years there have been between 11 and 18 deaths in coaches. We cannot tell how many of those deaths resulted from the provision or non-provision of seat belts as some of them occurred as people were getting off and on coaches. Clearly, every single death is a death too many, but that does not mean that this is an enormous problem. All coaches first registered after 1st October last year must have seat belts fitted. Since 1997 all coaches that carry children—that includes nearly all coaches as they cannot make a living unless they carry children as well as adults—must have seat belts fitted. The difficulty, which is recognised in the Question, is that of enforcement and getting drivers and those in charge to ensure that seat belts are used.
§ Viscount AstorMy Lords, will the Minister explain why, as I understand it, not only coach passengers but also coach drivers will in future have to wear seat belts and why lorry drivers will not be required to wear seat belts? What is the difference between coach drivers and lorry drivers? Would it not be better for lorry drivers also to wear seat belts? As I understand the position, older coaches will not be required to have seat belts fitted as sometimes their floors are not strong enough to enable them to be fitted safely. But is there any reason why, on those older coaches, the driver should not be required to wear a seat belt?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, the argument used at the time—I do not express any 900 judgment on its correctness—both as regards drivers of lorries and drivers of taxis was that their safety would be compromised if they could not get out of their vehicles quickly. The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, is right to say that satisfactory moorings for seat belts do not exist in very old coaches. That is a serious disadvantage as it means that they cannot carry children. They will be phased out in a short period of time. As regards the requirement for drivers to wear seat belts not being enforced, that is a perfectly fair point that deserves to be followed up.
§ Lord Faulkner of WorcesterMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the coach crash on the M25 on 16th November, which I believe prompted my noble friend's sensible Question and supplementary question, tragically killed six people travelling back from the Continent but attracted less media attention than the derailment last Sunday of a First Great Western train at Ealing? That incident attracted tabloid headlines such as "train terror" even though not a single passenger was killed or injured. Should we not stress over and over again how much safer train travel is than travel by road? The latest statistics show that travel can be up to 20 times safer by train than by road.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, it is true that train travel is very safe but it is also true that coach travel is very safe. I refer to the figures that I gave and to a figure for all road user casualties of over 300,000. When we compare that with a figure of well under 1,000 casualties from coach travel, it can be seen that we should not extend the dangers of road travel to coaches.
§ Lord Janner of BraunstoneMy Lords, will my noble friend be good enough to answer my question about whether there have been any and, if so, how many, prosecutions for failing to wear seat belts and, if so, with what result?
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, I try to answer two questions from each speaker as that is what I understand to be the convention of the House. I shall write to my noble friend on that point.