HL Deb 08 June 1998 vol 590 cc685-8

2.44 p.m.

The Earl of Lytton asked Her Majesty's Government:

What are the purposes of a Home Office donation to the Association of Chief Police Officers for England, Wales and Northern Ireland (ACPO) of £458,000 in 1996–97, and a contribution from the police authorities of £330,000 for the relevant part of ACPO's 1996–97 accounting period; and what services are provided by ACPO to these donors.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Williams of Mostyn)

My Lords, the Home Office provides a contribution to the running costs of the Association of Chief Police Officers' Secretariat in respect of salaries and administrative expenses. Police authorities contribute to the association in recognition of its role in providing professional policing policy advice to police authorities, government and others. The provision of professional policing policy advice is carried out by the association in support of local policing, rather than as a specific service to a particular organisation.

The Earl of Lytton

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply and I am mindful of the fact that I have a former president of the Association of Chief Police Officers sitting next to me. Will the Minister explain to the House what principles of accountability apply to those sums which come from both the police committees and the Home Office direct? What accountability is there in respect of those sums? More particularly, what scrutiny is available in relation to those in the normal way in which such sums are scrutinised?

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, the Government's contribution to ACPO is managed by the Home Office. It pays invoices for approved expenditure incurred by ACPO. Therefore, before any payment is made, scrutiny is directed to every request made by way of invoice.

Furthermore, the copy of ACPO's accounts for 1996–97 has been placed in the Library and the accounts for 1997–98, which are currently being prepared, will also be placed in the Library. In future, the accounts will be published in Companies House format and will include various references to the Government's contribution.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that over a period of time, governments have given precisely that degree of financial support to the Association of Chief Police Officers? Is he aware that on a whole range of issues ranging from policy relating to crime to road traffic, the advice which it gives to the Home Office and to police authorities is of considerable public importance? Therefore, does he agree that such support is highly desirable?

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, I am sure that that is absolutely right. As the noble Lord says, this has been going on for a number of years. It is extremely useful to the Home Office to have a source of informed expertise. Most Ministers who have been in receipt of the advice, although they may not agree with it on every occasion, recognise its worth and value.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, does that mean that other organisations will also receive core grants from the Home Office for the same reasons?

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, not necessarily, no.

Lord Merlyn-Rees

My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that the advice which comes from ACPO on a variety of issues is not the only source of advice? It comes also from within the police department and the inspectorate. It is not the only advice, is it?

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Merlyn-Rees is absolutely right. It is a very important source of advice but we have our own internal statistical department; we consult a large number of bodies in the criminal justice field; and we have contributions from institutes of criminology, from universities and a wide variety of international sources.

Lord Knights

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that ACPO has divided itself recently into two organisations: the Association of Chief Police Officers, which is funded in the way that the Minister has already indicated, dealing with professional policing policy; and a second separate organisation, the Chief Police Officers' Staff Association, which deals with staff matters, conditions of service and so on, which it funds itself?

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. It was thought appropriate that there should be a division between those two functions: the second being a matter of negotiation about terms and conditions and such matters; and the first being the sort of independent advice to which a number of your Lordships have already referred.

Lord Brougham and Vaux

My Lords, the noble Lord is probably not aware that I had lunch with the Chief Constable of Norfolk today. He will be speaking to a colleague of the Minister in the Home Office and the noble Baroness, Lady Haymah. I hope that the Government will take advice from the chief constables when that is put before them.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, I did not know that the noble Lord had had lunch at all, and certainly not with the Chief Constable of Norfolk. I am sure that it was an excellent lunch and that the conversation was most stimulating.

We always listen with great care to what is said by chief constables. They are at the sharp end of policing. They have enormous responsibilities. As was implied earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, I believe that there is an extremely useful, constructive relationship between ACPO and the Home Office and long may it continue.