Sorbonne Agreement and Student Mobility (Hansard, 4 June 1998)

§ The Minister of State, Department for Education and Employment (Baroness Blackstone)
My Lords, the main implication of the agreement signed at the Sorbonne on 25th May is that European higher education institutions in the other three countries can be expected to offer a structure of qualifications similar to the undergraduate and postgraduate degrees offered by higher education institutions in the United Kingdom. That should enable British universities, if they wish, to develop closer links with their European counterparts and should also enhance mobility for students.

§ Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Answer. I should also like to congratulate her on the honorary degree which I understand from French, German and Italian press reports she was awarded. Can the noble Baroness explain why the agreement was given so much more publicity in the other three countries than it was in Britain? Further, as the agreement, which the Minister kindly sent me yesterday, refers to, facilitating student mobility … [and] endeavouring to create a European area of higher education", can she tell the House what the DfEE intends to do to facilitate such expanded student mobility, given the fact 471 that, on many figures, the number of British students going to study abroad is currently declining rather than expanding?

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, I have no idea why the newspapers in France, Italy and Germany gave the agreement more coverage. I suppose that it was understandable in France which is celebrating the 800th of the anniversary of the founding of the Sorbonne. I believe that there was much interest among the French public in the event.
As to the noble Lord's second question, I can tell him that the Government do want to see more mobility among university students and university staff, together with more opportunities for students from the UK to study in Europe. One measure we have taken is to exempt students on ERASMUS programmes from the tuition fee as part of our aim of narrowing the gap between the number of students coming to the UK and the number of students from the UK going to Europe on those programmes. Of course, it is also for individual universities to promote co-operation of this kind. I know that the noble Lord has been involved in such schemes at the London School of Economics.

§ Lord Beloff
My Lords, does the Minister agree that some French press reports suggest a rather more ambitious programme—namely, the harmonisation of higher education between the four countries to promote mobility, which is in itself a good thing—but say that the autonomy of British universities makes such co-operation difficult to attain? Can the Minister assure the House that there is no question of intervening in the autonomy of our universities in order to fulfil the terms of this agreement?

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, it is always dangerous to believe what one reads in newspaper reports which appear in any country, including France. There is absolutely no intention of harmonising programmes or of trying to develop some kind of common curriculum. Indeed, that would be totally inappropriate. The autonomy of British universities is in no way threatened by the agreement. The agreement is simply about broad structures based on a system of undergraduate degrees, followed by masters degrees and then research degrees. That system does not exist in all of the countries concerned but it is available in the UK. I hope that the noble Lord will agree that what we see here is European universities becoming more like British universities and that that is to be welcomed.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, did I understand the Minister to say that students coming from abroad under the scheme would be excused the fees? If so, does that mean that students from English universities going to Scottish universities might be excused the fees, instead of being discriminated against as this Government seem determined to do?

§ Baroness Blackstone
No, my Lords. As I believe the noble Lord is perfectly well aware, the decision to charge English students who decide that they wish to 472 take a four-year course in Scotland stands. I am sure that the noble Lord is also well aware that an amendment passed in this House has been overturned in the other place—or, indeed, will be—

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Baroness Blackstone
It is well known, my Lords. The Government have made clear their intention. It is only right to ensure that students taking four-year degrees in England, Wales and Northern Ireland are treated in the same way as students from England taking four-year degrees in Scotland. As the noble Lord knows, it is also the case that encouragement is being given to Scottish universities to take students from England with two or three A-levels on to the second year of degrees, and many are already doing so.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, does the Minister agree that many university activities are affected by what happens in schools and that, although British universities benefit immensely from the arrival of students under the ERASMUS scheme, British students might take more advantage of the scheme in return if language teaching in our schools were to begin earlier?

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, I have long been an advocate of teaching European languages as early as possible in our system. Indeed, more and more primary schools are trying to undertake a little European language teaching for children aged 9, 10 and 11; in some cases, for even younger children. However, it is important to ensure that we have well-qualified language teachers to undertake the work. If it were done by people not properly qualified, it might put off more pupils than it would encourage.