Government of Wales Bill (Hansard, 2 June 1998)

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
We have just debated Government amendments to Clause 22 making various widespread changes to the Bill's provisions on cross-border functions. Clause 23 as it stands is therefore redundant. I shall therefore oppose the Question that Clause 23 stand part of the Bill.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
I must say that in all the legislation in which I was involved in the last Parliament I do not think I ever proposed that one of my own clauses should not stand part of the Bill. I must make a stop in the proceedings in order to note this amazing business.
I find it even more amazing because at 4.40 p.m. this afternoon I wrote down that the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, said that the Government 267 would consider any amendment but they would conclude that they were right all along. Quite clearly they have considered their own amendment and concluded that they were wrong all along. They are therefore amending their own Bill. I am not complaining about that; I just want to draw it to the Committee's attention. I hope that if some Members of the Committee decide later in the proceedings that the Bill ought to be amended the Government will not complain too much. If the noble Lord can amend his own Bill then surely the rest of us can amend his Bill.
My second point is that I hope that the noble Lord appreciates the importance of a revising Chamber. Where would the Government have been if we had been a unicameral body—just like the Welsh assembly and the Scottish parliament—and had got to the end of the proceedings in the one and only House and suddenly found that their Bill was deficient in significant ways? More than half the pages in the Marshalled List are down to Government amendments.
My third and most serious point is that these are big changes. The one we are discussing is the insertion of a new schedule into the Bill in place of a clause; later on another large schedule will be put into the Bill in place of a clause. I counted very roughly, and 35 or 36 pages of the Marshalled List will figure in the Bill. The Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee has not been able to give us its views on this new chunk of the Bill. This is a serious problem. If the Government are going to make major amendments to the Bill in Committee, that is something to which the House will have to turn its attention.
After a quick look through the major amendments which are being put in in place of Clause 23, I notice quite a lot of delegated legislation. As a founder member of the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee, and subsequently as a recipient of some of its adverse reports, I very much appreciate the important work of the committee. I have reservations that we are now seeing a whole new chunk of this Bill which will not be considered by the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee.
I know that the Minister cannot do anything about the committee but I hope that what I have said will be read by the people who are responsible. I do not know whether the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee can have another look and report before Report stage on what will be very much a rewrite of large portions of the Bill. It is an important issue when one has new parts of the Bill containing delegated powers. That is the point I wanted to make about the noble Lord's intention to oppose his own new clause. I am tempted to resist but I shall resist the temptation.

§ Lord Thomas of Gresford
I find it extremely refreshing that the Government should be so confident of their position that they can throw out an important clause and replace it with a schedule which explains everything in much more detail. I wish that such an approach to legislation had been adopted by the previous 268 government. They clung to every word, every adverb and every verb of the Bills they brought before the House rather than admit for a single second that they were wrong or had rethought the position. Here the Government have rethought the position and have carefully set out their fresh proposals. I hope it is a precedent that the national assembly for Wales will follow.

§ Lord Elis-Thomas
I am committed to seeing the Government's business through, especially at this time of night. However, I am tempted to intervene as usual, by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Mackay. This is a matter of the Government delegating their own intellectual arrangements to rethink their position. That is admirable. I support them.