HL Deb 12 June 1996 vol 572 cc1817-28

9.43 p.m.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.

The Bill has had a somewhat tangled history in the sense that the issue of stalking and harassment of individuals by other individuals over a considerable time in various often painful ways has been before Parliament on a number of occasions. Most recently it was during the passage of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Bill in 1994. In another place Lady Olga Maitland sought to introduce a measure which would have provided for additional penalties against stalking, and would have amended Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986 and Section 154 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Bill as it then was. She was supported by Labour Members but opposed by the Government on grounds which the Government still use; namely, they support the principle of a Bill of this kind but are still consulting about the way in which it should be achieved.

Since that time there has been the abortive Family Homes and Domestic Violence Bill, which achieved the support of this House but was ignominiously abandoned at the end of the last Session, and has only half been brought back in the Family Law Bill. It is not that that is on the same subject, but it provides very much the same kind of definition of an offence as is provided by the Bill I present today. The analogies are quite valuable.

There have been some improvements in the way in which the matter has been treated in the courts. Most recently, it was established that there is an offence of psychological grievous bodily harm. Anthony Burstow was convicted of grievous bodily harm to Tracey Sant and sentenced to three years' imprisonment for a series of very foul stalking activities towards her. He sent her soiled sanitary towels, he stole her underwear from lines and poured salt on her car. Generally speaking, he made her life impossible over a considerable period of time.

Some stalking does not consist of acts that are violent or offensive in themselves, but can consist of acts which in isolation might be perfectly reasonable, such as sending flowers or gifts, but which over a period of time, by repetition and often by including excessive phone calls and letters, can be exceedingly painful in total to the person being stalked.

I should make it clear that stalking is not only by men of women. Kingsley Martin, when he was editor of the New Statesman before, during and after the war was stalked for a considerable number of years by a woman who was described as elderly with thick glasses and grey hair, who used to appear at his home as he was about to leave for work, appear at work as he was arriving from home, appear when he went out from the New Statesman office, and appear on every occasion when, for example, he went to speak at public meetings. It reached the stage over a period of years where he would not leave his home or office without a member of his family or a colleague accompanying him. It was very painful. I believe he succeeded in getting an injunction from a judge in chambers to stop it. Apparently, the injunction worked on that occasion. This Bill is not purely about women being stalked by men. The offence can apply to anybody, although it is undoubtedly true that it applies mainly to women being stalked by men.

When the police are approached by people who are being stalked, they give various practical advice which I am sure is valid. They talk about having a mobile phone available and about panic buttons; and they refer from time to time to the possibility of action to prevent a breach of the peace. As was recognised by the Government as recently as 9th May, when Mr. David Maclean wrote to my honourable friend Janet Anderson, who introduced a Bill earlier this year, the Government are looking for a solution to the problem at the earliest opportunity. Mr. Maclean told Janet Anderson that the Lord Chancellor's Department was aware of the analogy of domestic violence legislation and was looking to see how that might be used as an analogy in seeking to solve the problem of stalking.

As I said, the problem is not that the Government do not recognise the importance of the issue, which affects very painfully and over a very long period of time a considerable number of women in this country, but that they do not know—or claim they do not know—what to do about it. This Bill may not be a perfect attempt, but it is certainly a serious attempt, to deal with the problem of stalking.

Clause 1 provides definitions of stalking and spells out a whole number of activities which will be called "stalking", provided that they are: reasonably likely to cause that other person to feel harassed, alarmed, distressed or to fear for his safety". Clause 2 provides that stalking is an offence when defined in that way, with a penalty of up to five years' imprisonment; that a constable may effect an arrest without a warrant; but that a defence exists for the offence if the accused: did not know and had no reasonable cause to believe that his actions caused the other person to feel harassed, alarmed, distressed, or fear for her safety.

Clause 3 provides for prohibitory orders to be granted by magistrates on the application of somebody who is being stalked. There is provision for such orders to be granted without the appearance of the respondent; but the respondent may appear, and if he does, the issue is decided on the balance of probability. It does not mean, if a prohibitory order is given, that the respondent is guilty of a criminal offence. There is reference in the Bill to the possibility of counselling for the respondent. But the clause provides that there is an offence for breach of the conditions of a prohibitory order.

Clause 4, which is very brief, excludes those who are acting in pursuit of a statutory or other lawful authority.

Clause 5 is concerned with "Citation, commencement and extent".

A number of objections have been raised. Indeed, there was a News Release by the Home Office on 9th May which accompanied Mr. David Maclean's letter to Janet Anderson. It is necessary for me briefly to rehearse those objections and consider how far the Bill deals with them and how further work may be required in Committee.

First, it is argued that the definition of stalking is too wide. There are laws against stalking in other parts of the world. Laws exist in Canada, states of the United States and states in Australia. They appear to work. In this Bill we have taken the best and most workable definitions of stalking and sought to put them into British legislation. If they are too wide, it is up to Parliament to narrow them and be more precise about them when the matter comes to Committee.

Another objection is that journalists, in particular, might be constrained from their activities by a stalking law. Of course, the whole issue of what journalists may or may not do in pursuit of a news story goes very much wider than stalking. It is part of privacy law. The adequacy of the law of privacy and proposals for strengthening the law of privacy are of enormous importance and will have to be debated by Parliament at some stage, if only because it appears that the European Court of Human Rights is not satisfied with British legislation on this matter. I do not feel that I need pursue the matter here, except to say that there are defences provided in Clauses 2 and 4 of the Bill.

Then there is the objection that the Bill provides a combination of civil and criminal measures to deal with stalking. Frankly, I find that objection incomprehensible. I do not see why we should not use both the criminal and civil law to pursue what is patently agreed to be an offence. I do not see why we should not have one single Act of Parliament referring both to the civil and criminal law. There have been improvements in the powers of the civil law in regard to stalking. There is now more generally recognised a civil offence of harassment. A case as recent as July of last year in the Court of Appeal of Burris v. Azadan is an example of that.

We need not only a civil offence which is available theoretically, but also a civil offence which is available easily in a magistrates' court—which is what is proposed in the Bill. We need something which does not require legal aid; we need informal procedures; we need the issue to be judged on the balance of probabilities and we need what the Bill provides—that is, that the respondents should not acquire a criminal record as a result. It is no good leaving it to the common law because the common law does not provide adequate powers of arrest. I would argue that the combination of the criminal and the civil law is necessary to deal with this acknowledged offence and the acknowledged pain experienced by a significant number of people in this country.

I conclude by saying to the Government that I appreciate that their anxieties about the drafting of the Bill may be genuine. I am not saying that they are not real concerns being expressed by lawyers advising the Home Office or the Lord Chancellor's Department. But we have an opportunity in this House—and that is what this House is for—to consider a draft Bill which I put before your Lordships now; to consider it with the help of officials and draftsmen and to come up with something which Parliament can consider and approve.

I challenge the Minister to say whether, if this Bill goes to Committee as I believe it should, they are willing to participate in the process at Committee; whether they are willing not only to comment on amendments that may be tabled by other people, but also to suggest improvements of their own. It is in all our interests that we should proceed as quickly as possible, consistent with good legislation, to deal with stalking. That is what, above all, the women of this country want. It is within the power of government and the Home Office to give them that help and that assurance. I commend the Bill to the House.

Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.— (Lord McIntosh of Haringey.)

9.53 p.m.

Lord Dixon-Smith

My Lords, I was interested to hear the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, in introducing this Bill. He covered the ground far better and more thoroughly than I can. I totally agree with him that behaviour now identified as stalking is wholly abhorrent and unacceptable. One can only feel the greatest sympathy for anyone who suffers from that form of harassment.

I rise to speak for two reasons. First, I wonder whether this is the right Bill to deal with this matter. I have great sympathy with those who have the responsible task—it is a terrible task—of drafting a parliamentary Bill. I have to say that the intentions of the Bill, and therefore, of course, of those who drafted it, are entirely honourable. But what I can only describe as a "you know what I mean" approach to legislation simply is not satisfactory. There is also the question, to which I shall return, of how far a person who feels that they are being stalked can obtain redress under existing law.

Next, I shall quote from the Bill—and I hope I shall be forgiven for this—somewhat selectively. Clause 1 states: In this Act, 'stalking' shall mean engaging in a course of conduct whereby a person— (a) follows, loiters near, watches or approaches another person". I miss out paragraph (b) deliberately. Paragraph (c) states: loiters near, watches, approaches or enters a place where another person lives, works or repeatedly visits". Paragraph (g) states: does any other act or acts in connection with another person so as to be reasonably likely to cause that other person to feel harassed, alarmed, distressed", and so on. Clause 2(1) then states quite properly: A person who stalks another person is guilty of an offence". Finally, Clause 2(3) states: A constable may arrest without warrant a person whom he has reasonable cause to suspect to have committed or to be about to commit an offence of stalking". That is the wording of the Bill. We need to consider one or two situations. All the world is supposed to love a lover, or so it was said. But how many young swains have loitered for the chance of a glimpse of an unobtainable object of desire? I remember being 17, 18 or 19, once a long time ago. I accept that times have changed and a more direct approach, perhaps not to say a blunt approach, may have become the norm. But do we really wish to make that a criminal offence? The Bill does.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, if the noble Lord will allow me, the Bill provides in Clause 2(4): It shall be a defence to a charge under this section if the person charged proved that he did not know and had no reasonable cause to believe that his behaviour was likely to cause harassment, alarm, distress or fear". I am sure that when the noble Lord was a lovesick swain he would have successfully pleaded that defence.

Lord Dixon-Smith

My Lords, I am well aware of the defence that is in the Bill and I will come to it in a few moments.

One could foresee other problems, and again one could say that these matters are to a certain extent handled by the latter parts of the Bill. But imagine an investigator looking for evidence in a case of insurance fraud. That could very easily be misconstrued if someone is watching someone else persistently. Consider, even worse, somebody trying to take or obtain evidence in a case of social security fraud. Again, he could very easily lay himself open to a charge of stalking. If we bring in this law as drafted that is what could easily happen. Even if the defence were accepted and so on, perfectly innocent individuals could be summarily arrested and have to talk their way out of what could be an exceedingly embarrassing situation. That may be meaningless, but they could be in that situation. We need to be aware of that in anything we finally put on the statute book.

Worse still, as drafted, you could be following a lady down a road on a dark rainy night and she could become very uncomfortable in that situation. I have seen this happen. She could run into a policeman who happened to have had a quarrel with his wife that morning and been bawled out by his son and therefore was in a difficult mood. Again, one could have a situation where instantaneous arrest was possible. One could talk one's way out of it but it could be exceedingly difficult and embarrassing. The only bit of imagination that needs to be stretched in that scenario is meeting a policeman on the street on a dark wet night, because, unfortunately, policemen are less and less often on their feet in the street nowadays.

The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, pointed out that sexual harassment is not only one way and stalking is not only one way. I have certainly heard of one case where a young man had his life made absolutely impossible by a girl. He was in serious fear lest she should set about charging him with rape. It is one thing to be charged with rape if you actually committed the crime, but entirely another, and exceedingly difficult, if you did not. As I have said, there are problems with the Bill as drafted.

I turn now to the defence to which the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, referred. Clause 2(4) states: It shall be a defence to a charge under this section if the person charged proved that he did not know and had no reasonable cause to believe that his behaviour was likely to cause harassment, alarm, distress or fear for personal safety as mentioned in section 1 above, and the burden of proof shall lie upon the defendant". I am a simple man and I have a simple mind, but I had always thought that it was a cardinal principle of British law that you are innocent until proved guilty. Therefore, I find this defence difficult to accept in that context.

I turn now to the protection offered by the existing law. I am indebted to my family solicitors for this advice. I more or less asked them the question: what would you do if somebody said that they were being stalked? There are two possibilities of remedy under Acts in the criminal code. First, the Public Order Act 1986 creates a criminal offence if a person, (a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour". or, in paragraph (b), "distributes or displays" to another person writing which is "threatening, abusive or insulting", or a person is guilty of an offence if he or she displays threatening or abusive behaviour with the intention of causing harassment, alarm or distress. That covers a large part of what this Bill is all about.

Next, the Malicious Communications Act 1988 makes it an offence to communicate with intent to cause distress or anxiety. Again, that aspect is mentioned in this Bill.

Because in this age divorce is common and family stress and division seem to be becoming—heaven help us—the norm rather than the exception, many actions of the sort we are discussing arise out of matrimonial tension and dispute, so the civil courts make possible many forms of action under family protection orders, exclusion orders or matrimonial injunctions that can be used to restrain the other party. Perhaps I may misquote a recent letter to The Times after the failure of the No. 1 Bill in another place and say, "The challenge for the courts is to use the existing law effectively".

In its present form, the Bill will not do. To quote from Yvonne Von Heusen's letter to The Times on behalf of the National Anti-Stalking and Harassment Campaign: Without consultation with us, Mrs. Anderson (the Bill's promoter) used our proposals yet provided an ineffective and unenforceable Bill". Whether the Bill is beyond redemption I hesitate to say. What I am certain of is that we should be very cautious with the Bill as drafted or we could, as happened with the Dangerous Dogs Act, legislate in haste and repent at leisure.

10.10 p.m.

Baroness Hayman

My Lords, I shall not detain the House long at this time of night, but I wish to say a few words in support of the case for the Bill, so ably argued by my noble friend Lord McIntosh of Haringey.

Perhaps I may deal first with some of the arguments referred to by the noble Lord who has just spoken. He began by expressing sympathy for the victims of harassment. I understand that sympathy to be genuine. But he then pursued an argument which suggested that, as legislators, we should give our sympathy but not take any action. The conclusion was that this proposed legislation was not redeemable and so deeply flawed and had so many risks in it that there were grave doubts as to the wisdom of taking it forward. That is my understanding, but I shall willingly give way if that is incorrect.

I suggest that, equally, there are risks in not legislating speedily. I believe that there is a general acceptance that, although there is a panoply of remedies presently available in various situations, those remedies are disparate and many victims of this serious problem, given the despair that can be caused by this harassment, do not find them adequate.

I am afraid that here we are dealing with forms of behaviour that are far more sinister than the mooning of lovesick swains or the innocent following of women down dark, wet roads at night with no ulterior purpose; and we are dealing with a range of different forms of behaviour. That is one of the difficulties in definition and the reason for the breadth of definition that we must have in any legislation. The particular behaviour and its significance, given the context, are difficult to pin down but can be equally distressing for the victim. While it is absolutely correct to say that this is not an offence committed by one sex or the other, some of the most horrifying cases of harassment have gone unchecked, and the ones that have ended with rape and violent attack have been offences against women. I believe that women in the main feel particularly threatened by this range of behaviour.

My understanding is that there is general agreement that the harassment and molestation which cause distress to so many women need to be curtailed. I believe that there is a need for speedy legislation in the declaratory sense; that is, to indicate the seriousness with which these forms of behaviour are viewed and to grant some relief and remedy to those who find the current range of piecemeal legislation very unsatisfactory.

This Bill is by no means perfect. Seldom at Second Reading do we have a Bill that is perfect. However, it contains a sensible definition which, though wide, is based on international experience. It provides the protection through prohibitory orders which is lacking at the moment. I believe that it strikes a proper balance between the interests of complainants and respondents. The role of the magistrates' court, and the accessibility and effectiveness of that system, have an important role in bringing succour to victims.

It has been suggested that, while supporting the principle of legislation, the Government believe that the defects are such that we ought to wait and take a more considered view. I understand that there has been wide consultation on the proposals and that within them is a framework on which we can build during the Committee stage and so improve the Bill. Any necessary amendments could be tabled and argued in this Chamber and the Bill could be turned into a workable and effective measure.

There is, as I said, an urgency in this—an urgency that we as legislators should recognise both the scale of the problem and the distress that it causes, and an urgency to provide remedies for those already suffering and protection for those who are at risk from these forms of behaviour. I hope that the Minister will be able to give support to the Bill.

10.15 p.m.

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, the actions which are known as stalking are a menace to our society. The actions of stalkers can have a devastating impact on the lives of their victims. The Government share the desire to do something to put a stop to that menace.

There are, of course, existing laws which can deal with the worst cases of stalking as recent prosecutions against stalkers for causing grievous or actual psychological harm demonstrate. It was interesting that the cases cited by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, were dealt with by the courts and that the offenders ended up in prison.

It is an offence, under the provisions of the Public Order Act 1986 intentionally to cause harassment, alarm or distress. It is an offence under the Misuse of Telecommunications Act 1984 to make indecent, obscene or threatening telephone calls and under the Malicious Communications Act 1988 to send letters of that kind.

But the Government have recognised that there is a gap in the present legislation to deal with situations where harassment, alarm or distress is caused but where intent to do so cannot be proved. We have been studying legislation against stalking in Australia, Canada and the United States, to see whether their solutions are relevant to the situation here in the United Kingdom. We have also been looking at the existing criminal and civil remedies in this country, to see whether we could build on those remedies to address this problem.

This is a difficult area in which to legislate, since many of the individual actions in which stalkers engage are, in themselves, quite harmless—walking up and down a street, or standing on a street corner, for example. Much of the activity which can be described as stalking can, in another context, be something entirely innocent done as part of normal activity.

We have to get this right. Any legislation in this area must be effective against stalkers and provide victims with adequate security and redress. But it must not inhibit people from going about their everyday business. The Government therefore consider that it is essential that we move forward in this area in co-operation and consultation with those who are seeking change, or who might be affected by new proposals.

When the honourable Lady who introduced a Bill on stalking in another place gave notice that she intended to do so, my right honourable friend the Minister of State agreed that she could speak to the Home Office, which was looking at this problem, so that she could be aware of our thinking and also of the difficulties which remained unresolved. My right honourable friend offered those discussions because he felt—rightly—that this issue was one in which a bipartisan approach was appropriate and achievable. The Home Office offered detailed advice to the honourable Lady on the shortcomings of her proposals, explaining that they did not address the complexities of the issue, such as the need to ensure that any criminal offence did not catch legitimate activities.

I understand that the honourable Lady also met the Lord Chancellor, who similarly pointed out that the scope of the proposals was too wide. It is a matter of regret, therefore, that, when the honourable Lady brought forward her Bill—similar to the one we are discussing tonight—it did not address the outstanding difficulties. The problems of drafting an appropriate provision in this area are considerable and more thought has to be given to the subject to get it right.

My right honourable friend recognised fully the intention behind the Bill, but came to the conclusion that the defects in the Bill could not be put right in Committee. I was therefore saddened that there were accusations that the Government did not support that Bill, or will not support this Bill, because they were introduced by members of an opposition party.

As I have said, we support the Bill's intentions. We want to get it right. We should like to see a Bill on the statute book. We believe that it can be done with all-party support. That is not the issue. The issue is that no responsible government should ever allow onto the statute book provisions which would make criminals out of ordinary citizens pursuing legitimate activities.

Let me make clear the reasons why the measures in the Bill under discussion today are unacceptable to the Government. My noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith set out some of those reasons most eloquently. The scope of the Bill is too wide. It would catch the legitimate activities of not only journalists—although there may be some who would regard that as no bad thing!—but also others going about their lawful business. It provides both civil and criminal remedies against stalking without any reference to the circumstances in which either remedy would be appropriate. There is no requirement to prove intent or recklessness in the criminal offence. And I do not believe that the Bill's proposal to reverse the burden of proof, a point so well made by my noble friend, so that a defendant would have to prove themselves innocent, is justifiable.

I think it worthwhile recalling the comments on the Government's attitude to the earlier Bill introduced by the honourable lady, made at the time by Dr. Evonne Von Heussen of the National Anti-Stalking and Harassment campaign, the leading voluntary organisation for the victims of stalking, and in campaigning for new legislation. I shall use a different quotation. She said: A bad Bill is worse than no Bill … You have to be able to defend legitimate activities such as debt collecting against the stalking charge. I think the Government is taking a genuine stance". I believe that she was right. We need to do something about this serious problem, but we need to do it without sowing the seeds of future injustices.

I have to say that I am surprised that the Opposition has not taken note of her views or consulted other groups who might find themselves the innocent victims of the proposed new offence, particularly as measures in this Bill could prove a nightmare for innocent people branded as criminals for engaging in legitimate activity. They would also have the burden of proving their innocence.

I do not think either that it would be right to rush into decisions and try to amend this Bill in Committee. The Government believe, as I have said, that consultation is essential on measures of this kind. We therefore intend to publish a consultation paper as soon as possible. I cannot give a date for publication but it is being considered as a matter of urgency and I hope that it will be published shortly. We shall take note of comments on that paper so that effective measures can be introduced to combat this menace.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, referred to wide consultations on the present proposals. I am not aware of those. I know that consultations have taken place with officials in the department and that that advice was ignored. I also know that consultations have taken place with the Lord Chancellor and that that advice was ignored. We are not aware of consultations with Dr. Von Heussen. Indeed, in her letter to the Telegraph she stated that she would have welcomed consultation.

The noble Baroness also said that although there are a panoply of remedies they are far too disparate. I suggest that stalking itself can be pretty disparate both in the nature of the activity and in the range: from the wholly innocent, to the most sinister. The complexity and the nature of stalking is all the more reason why the Bill needs thinking through more fully. It is too complex and sensitive a subject on which to legislate on the hoof and speedily.

We need to consult with interested people because we must get it right. This Bill is not right. We do not believe that it should be amended in Committee unless we have had a proper, formal consultation with interested parties. Therefore, the Government cannot support it, although in keeping with the traditions of this House, I shall not oppose its Second Reading tonight.

10.25 p.m.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, I shall try, so far as possible, to look for points of agreement rather than for points of disagreement. I acknowledge the spirit and the moderation in which the Minister responded to the Bill, although of course I am disappointed at her conclusions.

I acknowledge—and I should have said—that Janet Anderson was grateful to David Maclean and officials in the Home Office for the offer of talks which she took up and, indeed, for the opportunity of discussions with the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. She felt that it was better to proceed with a Bill as drafted and deal with the points that were raised in Committee because she had hoped that the Bill would not be obstructed on Second Reading. That is a matter of opinion. She might have made a misjudgment about the timing but there was no disagreement about the value of the consultation which took place. There is disagreement only about the way in which we should proceed in order to get something effective on to the statute book as quickly as possible.

There is no disagreement among us about the gravity of the offence or about the inadequacy about the present law. The noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, seemed to be saying that the problem was less than might otherwise appear because of the possibilities of the present law. But the examples which he gave and the examples which the Minister cited from the Public Order Act referred to acts which were, in themselves, harassment; in other words, acts which were offensive.

The whole point about stalking is that it often consists of acts which are not in themselves offensive. It is not offensive to walk up and down the road, to phone up and say, "I love you", to write love letters or to send flowers. I suppose that it becomes rather offensive at four o'clock in the morning. However, the point about the extension which is required to the law, which was recognised by the Home Office in the press release of 9th May, is that many activities which cause great pain are not in themselves harassment. They are innocent actions—in other circumstances they would be innocent actions. Therein lies the difficulty. I believe that we are all genuinely agreed about that.

I find it difficult to accept the Government's argument that this is legislation on the hoof. The issue has been before Parliament for two years since Lady Olga Maitland raised the issue and if, as I believe, she was right in raising it when the Criminal Justice and Public Order Bill was before Parliament, then surely there has been plenty of opportunity for a determined government to undertake the necessary consultation between 1994 and now.

Janet Anderson has consulted. She has perhaps not done so as widely as the Home Office can but she has talked not only to officials from the Home Office and the Lord Chancellor's Department but also to the Police Federation, the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, the National Anti-Stalking and Harassment Campaign and other interested parties.

The Minister is merely saying to us now that there will be consultation at some time in the future. We are in the last year of this Parliament. I am not going to give any undertaking about what legislation will be dealt with in the first year's programme of a Labour Government. But I am sure that your Lordships will understand that there are matters which have very high political priorities and it may be difficult to give priority to measures of this kind. But we have an opportunity now. We have an opportunity to build on the talks which have already taken place and which could be debated in Committee.

I have negotiated for a Committee stage which will take place on Friday, 28th June. I have tabled amendments which have been suggested by lawyers which I believe will improve the Bill. There are other improvements, some referred to by the Minister and some referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, which I shall consider very seriously and think about tabling amendments accordingly.

However, in Committee I wish to pin down the Government, if possible, so that they say exactly what is wrong with the Bill and what could be done to put it right. If anything can be done by negotiation as well as in Committee to achieve that, then even if we do not find time in the House of Commons for it in the course of this Session, we might have made some legislative progress towards a Bill which could get through in the next Session without unnecessary controversy. That is the purpose of this exercise. I appeal to the Government to assist it in any way possible. I commend the Bill to the House.

On Question, Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.