Council of Ministers: Voting Statistics (Hansard, 25 January 1996)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey)
My Lords, there have been two changes of voting system since the Single European Act. Voting figures for the period between the Single European Act and the Maastricht Treaty can only be obtained at disproportionate cost. Of 261 votes carried in the Council by qualified majority during the period 6th December 1993 to 31st December 1994, 197 were passed unanimously. Of the remaining 64 votes passed, Britain either voted against or abstained on 1125 21 occasions. During this same period Germany and France voted differently on 18 occasions. Final statistics for 1995 are not yet available.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for her reply. Does she agree that the figures she has been kind enough to give, covering the three years to the end of 1994, indicate that, despite all the Government's protestations of acting with independence and, indeed, courage from time to time, by and large they seem to have gone along with practically everything that has come before the Council of Ministers? That means, for example, that in the three years ending 31st December 1994, during which time 4,850 items of legislation were passed, for all its protestations of independence and sole judgment, the UK rode along with the rest of Europe. Do the German and French figures indicate that in the overwhelming number of instances the Elysée Treaty of 22nd January, 1963, by virtue of which right down to senior civil servant level Germany and France agree beforehand what would be their attitude at forthcoming Council meetings, seems to have been very effective indeed?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, at times I become a little weary when the noble Lord thinks that there is a plot in all of this. We will vote in favour of something only if we agree with it. If we disagree with it strongly, we will vote against. If there is a reason to abstain and not to vote against, we will do that. The myth of a Franco-German stitch-up in Europe, to which several noble Lords come every now again, is just as unfounded as the myth of the UK's isolation in Europe. When the noble Lord goes on to talk about other matters, including quoting more than 4,000 items of legislation, let us get one thing absolutely straight on the record. When I answer questions, I answer them explicitly, as did my noble friend Lord Chesham when he answered my noble friend Lord Brougham and Vaux explicitly about acts of legislation, and said: These figures do not include acts of day-to-day management where validity does not exceed a few weeks". That is why the figures in the Commission's annual report are higher than the Celex database. We only include acts that are meaningful. That is why we do not go along with all things only when they are in Britain's best interests.

§ Baroness Elles
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, contrary to the deduction of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, it is largely a tribute to the British Government and civil servants negotiating on behalf of British interests that we have so few times been in a minority in a qualified majority vote? Will she confirm that both Germany and the Netherlands, among others, have lost far more often in majority voting than has the United Kingdom?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I believe that my noble friend is absolutely right is saying that Germany and the Netherlands have lost far more often than the United Kingdom in majority voting. She is also right in pointing out that often, while agreement may 1126 not be reached on an issue at the first or second reading, so to speak, when it is thoroughly argued out it is frequently agreed by unanimity, the sense of the case having been fully explored. The need to explore cases fully accounts for much of the work not only in the Council of Ministers but also in COREPER.

§ Lord McNally
My Lords, does the Minister agree that any rational analysis of the figures before her show that most of the countries behave similarly and that statistics about Germany, the Netherlands, France or Britain being isolated are roughly the same? Does she agree that it is only the chip-on-the-shoulder approach to Europe that brings the conspiracy theory forward? Can she provide figures showing the number of times the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, has asked Questions on Europe in respect of which he has been profoundly isolated from his Front Bench?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I have lost count of the number of times that the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, has been out of agreement with his Front Bench but I do not want to penalise him unduly. He is a good friend in personal terms and I appreciate that very much.
The noble Lord, Lord McNally, is right in that it is arguing out the issues, in particular what lies behind the apparent issue, that is sometimes trumpeted by certain members of the press. That is essential and while I do not have to hand all the figures the noble Lord would like I can assure him it is a matter we watch with extreme care.

§ Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, can my noble friend tell the House—

Noble Lords
Next Question!

The Lord Privy Seal (Viscount Cranborne)
My Lords, I hesitate to interrupt what I know has been an extremely interesting series of exchanges. As always, I am in the hands of the House. I am conscious of the clock and we have a fourth Question which will be at least as interesting. Perhaps the House feels that it is time to move on.

Noble Lords
Hear, hear!