HL Deb 10 October 1994 vol 557 cc706-9

3.7 p.m.

Lord Campbell of Alloway asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether investigations under the War Crimes Act 1991 referred to on 21st July 1994 (H.L. Deb. col. 355) have now been concluded; whether the advice of Treasury Counsel and the consent of the Attorney-General has been sought by the Director of Public Prosecutions as regards the institution of any proceedings; and, if the Attorney-General's consent is to be sought, when his decision may be made known.

The Lord Chancellor (Lord Mackay of Clashfern)

My Lords, the Metropolitan Police War Crimes Unit has now submitted reports in five cases and those reports are receiving careful consideration by the Crown Prosecution Service. Some inquiries are however outstanding and these are being concluded as quickly as possible. The detailed handling of these cases is an internal matter for the Crown Prosecution Service.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend for his Answer; but apart from the five cases that he mentioned, what changes have taken place since June when out of 569 of those interrogated, 229 had been excluded including all those living in Scotland, leaving 28 under investigation, 10 of whom—now reduced to five as I understand it—are under consideration for prosecution? Will the Director of Public Prosecutions, when she seeks the consent of the Attorney-General for the Crown Prosecution Service to proceed against any of that handful of men, have regard to the viability of there being a fair trial on cogent evidence which on this occasion is plainly admissible?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, the pursuit of the investigations has gone on since the last time we discussed the matter. Since then, as I say, the war crimes unit has submitted reports in five cases, which are being considered by the CPS. The other investigations are being concluded as quickly as possible. So far as concerns the considerations which would be put before the Attorney-General by the Director of Public Prosecutions, if and when she came to submit the cases for his consideration, I have no doubt that all aspects of the matter affecting the justice of whether or not a prosecution should be taken would be considered, including, in particular, consideration of the dates and times involved in the matters which were the subject of the inquiry, having regard to the need to ensure a fair trial for any person whom it might be decided to accuse.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, how much money has so far been expended on those investigations? What is the estimate of the total amount which will be expended before the inquiries are complete, and exactly when is it estimated that there will be no further inquiries necessary under the Act?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, the latest figure I have for the total is the same figure as the one I gave on the last occasion. It is £5.2 million in Scotland, England and Wales. The precise outcome of the investigations, and the amount that may be required for them, is difficult to predict at this stage. Your Lordships may take it that these inquiries are being pursued as vigorously as possible by the police war crimes unit, and the costs thereafter will depend on the decisions taken as to whether a prosecution should be mounted.

Lord Renton

My Lords, is my noble and learned friend aware that before the Act was introduced it was assumed, on information held by the Government, that there would be trials; and that since the Act was passed there has been a lapse of three years? Does my noble and learned friend accept that justice delayed is justice denied?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I accept that justice unnecessarily or improperly delayed is justice denied; but I believe that I am right in saying that the Bill went forward upon the basis that investigations undertaken had shown that there were matters which required to be investigated. I do not believe that what the outcome would be was forecast with any degree of confidence; but before the public authorities could investigate these matters in the ordinary way, jurisdiction was required to be established. It was only once the jurisdiction had been established that the police could properly undertake investigations. As my noble friend has said, those investigations have now been concluded so far as concerns Scotland. I understand from my noble and learned friend the Lord Advocate: that he has decided that there should be no prosecutions there.

Lord Irvine of Lairg

My Lords, when were the five cases that the noble and learned Lord mentioned referred to the DPP? Since the war crimes were committed more than half a century ago, and since delay is always the enemy of justice, particularly with identification, has not the time come for the DPP to set herself a deadline for making up her mind, at least in these five cases?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, as I understand it, the five reports were submitted since we last discussed the matter. Your Lordships may take it that the DPP is as concerned as your Lordships to ensure that these matters are brought to a conclusion as rapidly as possible. However, the precise consideration that is required to be given to the reports—in the nature of things they are very detailed reports—is of such a character that it is not possible at this stage reasonably to forecast how long they might take. All I can do is give your Lordships an assurance from lie DPP that they will be concluded as quickly as possible.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, finally, will the hazard of conviction as a result of mistaken identification be brought well to the forefront of the minds of all concerned, as was recently acknowledged by the appellate court in Israel?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I have no doubt whatever that that consideration would, in any event, be taken into account. The history of the case in Israel to which my noble friend referred underlines that necessity in cases of this type and will reinforce the consideration which I believe would in any event be given to it.

Lord Irvine of Lairg

My Lords, since the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, informed your Lordships' House on 27th June that 10 cases were being considered for prosecution by the DPP, and since the noble and learned Lord has just told the House that the five cases he mentioned were referred, as he understood it, to the DPP after the House last discussed the matter, are we to take it that the 10 cases to which the noble Earl referred have been dropped and that these are five new cases?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, my understanding is that the five cases that are presently being considered are the cases in which reports have been received from the police war crimes unit and which are being considered by the CPS. I believe that in his previous Answer my noble friend was referring to consideration being given by the Metropolitan Police War Crimes Unit to matters which were before it. In the light of the noble Lord's inquiry, I shall check that point; but that is my understanding.

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