HL Deb 22 June 1994 vol 556 cc268-9

2.52 p.m.

Baroness Castle of Blackburn asked Her Majesty's Government:

What efforts they are making to secure the amendment of the 1977 acquired rights directive of the European Union, designed to protect: the pay and conditions of employees transferred from the public service to the private sector.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Employment (Lord Henley)

My Lords, the Government welcome the fact that the European Commission is reviewing this directive under the principles of subsidiarity. It is now apparent that the directive has a very broad scope and that its effects can be damaging to employment.

Baroness Castle of Blackburn

Is it not a fact that the Government's prime aim in privatising public enterprises, or contracting out public services to private bidders, has been to worsen the conditions of work, lower pay, and create a means of making staff redundant: in the enterprises so transferred? Is not this directive some barrier to the protection of workers' rights in the hands of this Government?

Lord Henley

My Lords, I do not agree with the first part of what the noble Baroness had to say. As regards the second part of what she had to say, the directive was agreed, as the noble Baroness will be aware, in 1977 by a Labour Government. It was aimed at protecting employees' rights on corporate takeovers and mergers. I further would have to say that the last Labour Government's draft proposal to implement the acquired rights directive actually specifically excluded charitable bodies, government departments, local authorities, and so on, from the scope of their draft TUPE regulations. I think therefore it is somewhat hypocritical for the party opposite to criticise the Government's implementation of that directive when it was Labour who passed the defective directive on redundancy legislation and when its TUPE proposals would clearly have excluded all the public sector.

Baroness Turner of Camden

My Lords, when will the Government support: directives such as the Vredeling directive? The Vredeling directive was opposed by this Government. The directive made provision for consultation and for workers' involve-ment. Is this not a very bad example to set as regards the rest of the EU—that we, of all countries, block these directives if we can?

Lord Henley

My Lords, that is another matter. As regards the revisions to this directive, the noble Baroness will be aware that the Commission agreed at the Brussels Council to bring forward proposals to amend that directive. Unanimity is now required to amend that directive. We believe that there is now a consensus, particularly following a case such as the Schmidt case in Germany. There is a consensus among member states for excluding contracting out.

Baroness Castle of Blackburn

But is it not a fact that it was the Tory Government who in 1981 translated the directive into law in this country, and has not the Government been rebuked by the European Court for failing to carry out the directive, even recently? Has not a case been won by workers recently in the Court of Appeal which has given them rights this Government are dedicated to destroy?

Lord Henley

Yes, my Lords; but it was this Government who went further than the last Labour Government. As I made clear, the last Labour Government intended to exclude the entire public sector. The noble Baroness cannot get round that. We went further in 1981. As regards the case that the noble Baroness referred to in the European Court of Justice, as I made clear the other day, we lost on only one minor point. All the other matters have been resolved. That one minor point concerned only consultation rights and was a fairly narrow legal point.

Baroness Turner of Camden

My Lords, reverting to what the Minister has just said, what steps are the Government prepared to take to ensure that there is a statutory system for workers' consultation in the light of the decision of the European Court of Justice?

Lord Henley

My Lords, obviously we will consider those points; but I have to make quite clear to the noble Baroness that it does not in fact extend to trade union rights. In fact it extends consultation rights beyond trade unions.

Baroness Williams of Crosby

My Lords, first, may I say to both the Minister and to the noble Baroness, Lady Castle, that it was a most enjoyable exchange. I hope I may pursue one point with regard to the European Court judgment on the admittedly narrow issue of consultation rights. Do the Government propose to bring forward legislation, or do they hope to amend the directive along the lines the Minister suggested?

Lord Henley

My Lords, as I made quite clear in my earlier response, we will be considering this matter in due course.