HL Deb 29 April 1994 vol 554 cc920-2

11.11 a.m.

Lord Bonham-Carter

asked her Majesty's. Government:

What action they propose to take, in co-operation with other Security Council members, to protect. those at risk, including local staff employed by United Kingdom-based non-governmental organisations in Rwanda.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Employment (Lord Henley)

My Lords, the United Nations Mission in Rwanda (UNAMIR) is working for a cease-fire. It has also been tasked by the Security Council to assist in the resumption of humanitarian relief operations and monitor and report on developments. We are actively encouraging all international efforts, including those by the OAU and regional governments, to halt the killings.

Lord Bonham-Carter

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does the Minister share my concern that in the face of massive slaughter, bigger than in Bosnia, bigger than in Somalia, and bigger probably than anywhere else in the world, the UN Security Council decided to reduce its forces in Rwanda and, as it were, to opt out of this operation de facto?

Lord Henley

My Lords, I do accept what the noble Lord said about the massive slaughter in Rwanda. It is difficult to know quite how bad it is but: we have heard of reports of between 100,000 and 200,000 dead. I can tell the noble Lord that the decision to reduce the force level was taken only after the most careful consideration of all the options and on the advice of the United Nations Commander, Major-General Dalliere, and it is merely a reduction in the force level and riot a United Nations withdrawal from Rwanda. We believe that the main task in Rwanda and the most important way of bringing relief to all those concerned is obviously to broker a cease-fire so that the humanitarian operation can begin again and get the Arusha peace agreement back on track.

Baroness Elles

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the UN personnel who have been in Rwanda are there basically to keep the peace and it is absolutely impossible in the present situation? I think that we have to accept that they are not in a position to have their own lives defended in this difficult situation. We certainly ought to thank those who are there at the moment doing an extremely difficult job.

Lord Henley

My Lords, my noble friend has made the very point that the United Nations Commander in Rwanda made. Very often the more soldiers one has out there the greater the problem in that one ends up having to protect those who are already there. As I made quite clear, the United Nations' decision to reduce force levels was taken only after the most careful consideration. It is not a withdrawal from Rwanda, it is merely a reduction in the force level.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, does the Minister agree that NGOs in general have proved to be excellent voluntary organisations and have given good service to democracy everywhere? Will he therefore consider making very strong representations to the United Nations on behalf of NGOs?

Lord Henley

My Lords, I can only endorse what the noble Lord said. I understand from a press report today, which I am very pleased to repeat, that the Italian Red Cross has been able to evacuate 40 children from an orphanage in Rwanda.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, in relation to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, that General Dalliere did not have the forces to cope with the massive armed attacks by one ethnic group on another and the conflict between the RPF and the Government of Rwanda, was consideration given to the alternative of asking the OAU, for example, to reinforce General Dalliere's troops so that instead of a peacekeeping operation a peacemaking operation could have been embarked on at short notice?

Lord Henley

My Lords, I can only repeat that all matters were carefully considered by the United Nations. Peacemaking is a very different activity from peacekeeping and is rather harder to do than some pundits would suggest. As I made clear earlier, maintaining large numbers of troops in Rwanda in itself could create more problems than it might solve. I return to what I said before. The decision to reduce force levels in Rwanda was taken only after the most careful consideration.

Lord Judd

My Lords, does the Minister agree that we may be facing genocide on a scale that the world has not seen since Cambodia in the 1970s, and if that is the case we should be mobilising all possible material, military and financial support to enable the Secretary General to take serious peace enforcement action? Does the Minister agree—I am sure that he does—that the whole story underlines a crazy set of priorities in the world at the moment when more than £400 billion was still being spent on arms in 1993 while only £2.25 billion could be found for peacekeeping? Will the Government accept that they will have the fullest possible support from this side of the House if they take consistent action to reverse those nonsensical priorities?

Lord Henley

My Lords, the noble Lord is going slightly wide of the original Question about our policy in Rwanda. I repeat to the noble Lord that we are obviously deeply concerned about what is going on. The number of deaths there is horrendous, whatever figure one takes. The noble Lord tried to draw a comparison between what we are doing in Rwanda and what is happening in Bosnia and elsewhere. It is probably best if I merely repeat what my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said in another place two or three days ago. He said: We do not have a new world order. We have a traditional set of world disorders and we are trying, case by case and institution by institution, to equip ourselves to deal more adequately with those disorders. Each one is different, and the effort that the outside world can make to help solve each one will differ also". —[Official Report, Commons, 25/4/94; col. 26.]

Lord Bonham-Carter

My Lords, the Minister said that the options had been considered with the utmost care. Is he aware that some of those most closely concerned, including the President of Uganda, President Museveni, took an exactly opposite view and advocated very strongly reinforcement rather than withdrawal?

Lord Henley

My Lords, there are frequently differing views on different sides. That is why matters have to be considered with great care and that is why the United Nations Security Council did consider these matters with great care and came to the conclusion that it did.