§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Lord StallardMy Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Dean of Beswick and with his full permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government what are the latest figures for the number of people registered as homeless, and what is the estimate of those sleeping rough who are not registered.
§ Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, the latest figures show that in the third quarter of 1992, 35,520 households were accepted for permanent rehousing by local authorities in England. This is a fall of 2 per cent. On 556 the figures for the same quarter last year. The 1991 census found that on the night of 21st/22nd April 1991, 2,703 people were sleeping rough in England and Wales, of whom 1,275 were in London. The latest count of rough sleepers in November this year found 419 people sleeping rough in central London.
§ Lord StallardMy Lords, we must all be concerned —not just at Christmas time, but throughout the year —about the ever-increasing problem of homelessness. Will the Minister accept that I am particularly concerned about the initiative announced by the Government in the Autumn Statement, which has carried on since, because of the limited period of time? I believe that it is limited to a period of three years and to London. Is the Minister aware that the problem outside London is increasing faster than in London? Does he not agree that it is time that we looked at the position nationally and that we adopted a strategy for housing generally to combat the situation which has now arisen where thousands of people are literally trapped in hostel accommodation because of the unavailability of "move-on" permanent accommodation? Is the Minister further aware that because they are trapped in hostel accommodation, that prevents homeless people being taken off the streets? Would the Minister care to comment on some of those immediate problems?
§ Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, the noble Lord is right in saying that it is a substantial problem. It is by no means unique to this country. All over the western world and in America we see similar problems in major conurbations of people becoming homeless. It is caused largely by the breakdown of family relationships, marriages and so on. In this country it is largely a problem in London. As the noble Lord recognised, we have introduced a new scheme specifically for London and the South East. But that is not to lose sight of the fact that there are problems in other parts of the country.
§ Lord GisboroughMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that Westminster Council provides a large number of free beds every night? Can he say to what extent that availability is publicised among those sleeping rough? Has he any idea why those beds are not taken up?
§ Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, a substantial amount of work is done in central London, particularly in Westminster, through the Government's rough sleeping initiative, which has been hugely successful. It has reduced by a substantial number those who sleep rough in London. Why people do not take up available places is not for me to say.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, is the Minister aware that in London—because it is primarily a London problem —there are hundreds of empty flats owned by local authorities and private enterprise? Can the Minister say why they are not made available?
§ Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, my honourable friend the Minister for Housing, Sir George Young, is well aware of the problem so neatly enunciated by the noble Lord, Lord Mellish. He has a programme of 557 working with the private sector, with other government departments and with local authorities to see what can be done to bring empty homes into use and to allow people to move into them.
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, is it not a fact that the relationship postulated in the Question between homelessness and people sleeping rough is, to a certain extent, misleading? The first is a housing problem—and very important. The other, which is also important, is a social problem. They are not necessarily identical.
§ Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, my noble and learned friend is absolutely right in his analysis of the problem. Sometimes there are difficulties of linguistics and in deciding who is a "homeless" person and who is a "rough sleeper".
§ Lord Ross of NewportMy Lords, may I please say to the Government that I recognise that they have—
§ Lord Ross of NewportMy Lords, in recognising that the Government have done something in London towards increasing hostel accommodation—quite substantial sums have been provided—is it not time that the Government did something for places such as Bristol and Leeds, and for the North West and the North East, where, as has been illustrated on television and elsewhere, increasing numbers of people are now sleeping rough? When will the Government allocate adequate funds to deal with the situation in the provinces, and not just in London?
§ Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, I hope that I answered that point in my Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Stallard. We regard London as being the primary problem, but that does not mean that we ignore the needs of other parts of the country, particularly the cities which the noble Lord mentioned.
§ Lady KinlossMy Lords, in the light of the report No Way Back by Centrepoint-Soho, the charity for young homeless, which shows that there has been an increase of 35 per cent. in the number of young homeless people-16 and 17 year-olds—that the centre has seen since 1987, may I ask the Minister what the Government intend to do about these young people?
§ Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, the noble Lady will be aware that the Government give substantial financial support to the Centrepoint organisation. However, we do not entirely agree with its figures. Of the 419 people sleeping rough in London in November—the figure I gave in my original Answer—only 20 were aged 18 or under.
§ Lord Murray of Epping ForestMy Lords, while the steps that have been taken by the Government to resolve these difficulties are very limited, they are nevertheless very welcome. However, does the Minister agree that much much more needs to be done to obviate what has become nothing less than a 558 national scandal? Will he accept an invitation from the Open Christmas scheme in Caledonian Road to visit that scheme over Christmas and discuss the matter with those who are guests of the scheme? I do not suggest this in any attempt to attack the Government, but in the hope that by discussing things together we might find a solution to an appalling problem.
§ Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, I understand the noble Lord's sincerity, but I hope that he realises that we are not complacent. Nor do we underestimate the problem. An enormous amount has been achieved during the past three years. New initiatives and new programmes have been put into place. We are working with other departments to look at some of the problems that create homelessness in the first place so that perhaps in the long term we can eradicate what is clearly a difficult problem.
§ Baroness Hollis of HeighamMy Lords, is the Minister aware that last year 1 million people—that is, a population the size of that of Birmingham—presented themselves to local authorities as homeless? Do the Government accept that only homes can house the homeless? Do the Government therefore accept the advice of the National Audit Office that it costs twice as much to keep a family in bed-and-breakfast accommodation per year as to build them a new home? In the light of that will the Minister urge his colleagues in the other place to permit local authorities to spend all their capital receipts—not just the capital receipts incurred from November this year to December next, as announced in the Autumn Statement—to build the homes that this country needs?
§ Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, as I have already said, we are doing a great deal to help those who find themselves homeless. We have been very successful in reducing the number of people who are housed in bed-and-breakfast accommodation. That figure fell by 23 per cent. in the 12 months to 30th September. As for capital receipts, over the course of the next 13 months we believe that £1.75 billion will fall into the hands of local authorities—it is money they can spend on their capital operations—100 per cent. of which they can keep.
§ The Countess of MarMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of a recent report which indicates that homelessness in rural areas is accelerating at more than twice the speed of homelessness in urban areas? What is being done about that?
§ Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, I hope that I have indicated during the course of my answers that we are not complacent that this is just a London problem. We accept that there is a problem in other urban areas and in rural areas. Therefore, our policies are aimed at defeating homelessness wherever it may be found.