Adult Education: Funding (Hansard, 17 June 1991)

§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Baroness Blatch)
My Lords, the White Papers make a distinction between the funding of education leading to a range of important outcomes and education meeting the leisure and recreational interests of adults, not between vocational and non-vocational education. We expect recreational courses to continue to be put on by a wide range of bodies, including LEAs, colleges, voluntary bodies and school governing bodies under their new freedoms. People have shown that they are prepared to pay for leisure activities of all kinds, and we believe that they are also prepared to pay for recreational courses.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Government's proposals in the White Paper on adult education have cast gloom and despondency upon the adult education world if only because the Government appear to have failed to understand how blurred the demarcation lines are between vocational, non-vocational, academic and leisure adult education? Can the Minister specifically reassure the House that the Government will provide LEAs with sufficient funding to continue to subsidise so-called leisure adult education?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, in addition to vocational education the funding council will be able to fund academic courses, basic skills courses, access to higher education courses, special needs and returning to learning courses. There will be some overlap but LEAs will be left with funds to pay for people who wish to enjoy leisure-recreational classes where they deem it necessary.

§ Lord Thorneycroft
My Lords, will my noble friend remember that the non-vocational courses are probably the most merciful and wonderful gift that can be given to people who are old, sick and retired or those who have no friends? Thousands of people in this country find friendship and encouragement through such courses. A cutback would cause untold misery to people who do not deserve it. Therefore, will the Minister think carefully about taking any action that will harm what is regarded in this country as one of our best services?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, my noble friend has made an important point. Nothing that has been stated in the White Papers will preclude those provisions being made available to the elderly and to the young. There will be a change in the funding mechanism but not a cut in the funding for such classes. There will be a presumption in favour of fee-paying for leisure and recreational classes, but local authorities will be able to intervene by way of subsidy where they deem it necessary.

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is great dissatisfaction and sorrow among unemployed young people about the youth non-vocational training courses? The many young people who are not accepted for such courses cannot claim supplementary benefit. Will the Minister look into that matter.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I am not certain of the specific difficulty to which my noble friend refers. Local education authorities will remain free to intervene by way of subsidies for young people if they believe that the course which the young person wishes 3 to pursue is important. A basic skills course as a ladder to further learning will come under the new funding council.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, in view of what the Minister said about the new thinking, will she encourage local authorities, before the provisions in the White Paper are implemented, by giving them more aid to pursue such classes?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the noble Lord is right. Your Lordships will notice that I made no distinction between vocational and non-vocational courses. However, it will be important for local education authorities to look at the profile across their areas and where they believe it necessary to encourage by way of intervention and subsidy. They should also encourage people who can afford to pay to take advantage of this important provision.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, I first apologise to the Minister because in asking my question I speak entirely from memory. I firmly believe the White Paper to have stated that, as regards the leisure activities referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, it was assumed that local authorities would be charging full-cost fees. Do I now understand that the White Paper does not state that? Is it correct that since the publication of the White Paper two weeks ago the Government have changed their view and that they no longer believe that leisure activities should be charged at full cost?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, no. The noble Lord's memory serves him well. The presumption for leisure and recreation will be in favour of fee charging and local authorities will continue to have power where they deem it necessary to intervene by way of subsidy.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, am I not right in saying that it is precisely the sort of activity which the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, thought so important which will be charged full-cost fees?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, no. There will be a presumption in favour of low-cost fees but where the local authority believes that an elderly person cannot afford to pay and that it is desirable for intervention by way of subsidy, then local authorities will be empowered so to intervene. It is not right to assume that because people are elderly, they are not able to pay for recreational courses.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, will the Minister give the House an assurance that where such courses are likely to collapse because there are large numbers of elderly people who cannot afford to pay full-cost fees, the Government will provide local authorities with sufficient funding for extensive subsidies?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, this year the Government increased by 16 per cent. SSAs for education to local authorities. Within that, there was a 13 per cent. increase in the heading which covers adult education. The Government's record is good. However, we cannot and do not say that we shall 4 intervene in how education authorities spend that money. The hope is that where there is a deemed need, local authorities will do all they can to meet that need.

Viscount Combermere
My Lords, I have been engaged in adult education for over 20 years. In volume one, paragraph 9.11 of the White Paper states that, public expenditure on education for adults will be concentrated on the courses that can help them in their careers and in daily life". Will the Minister specify courses which do not help people in their daily lives?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the noble Viscount has misinterpreted what that means. The Government have said that they will give priority to courses which enable people to achieve access to the world of work and which further their careers and self-development. I have admitted that there is some overlap. Local authorities will continue to provide leisure and recreational courses, some of which will fall into the category of self-development and self-enhancement. The presumption will be in favour of charging fees for those courses but there will continue to be the power to intervene by subsidy for groups of people who are unable to pay for the courses.