§ 2.51 p.m.
§ Lord Bruce of Donington asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ What steps they have taken to verify that observations by the President of the European Commission on the policies and actions of Her Majesty's Government and United Kingdom Ministers have been concurred in by a majority of Commissioners, as required by Article 163 of the Treaty of Rome.
§ Lord Cavendish of FurnessMy Lords, the accountability of the President of the Commission as a whole is an internal matter for the Commission.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, I agree straightaway that it is desirable that the President of the Commission or any Commissioner should advance public argument in support of his own proposals. However, does the Minister agree that it is undesirable and improper that a paid international civil servant—
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, does the Minister agree that it is undesirable and improper that a paid international civil servant should presume to criticise individual countries and their Ministers, thus participating in the domestic politics of the member state concerned? Does he agree that such important utterances implicate other Commissioners who may disagree with the President of the Commission?
§ Lord Cavendish of FurnessMy Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord was interrupted but I believe that I understood the thrust of his question. I am aware of the remarks to which the noble Lord referred. M. Delors has always been extremely careful not to name names. As we do not recognise the attitude complained of as being ours, it would be foolish to remonstrate. Article 163 refers to Article 157 which states:
In the performance of these duties they"—they are the Commissioners—shall neither seek nor take instructions from any Government or from any other body".The same article also states that each member state undertakes:not to seek to influence the Members of the Commission in the performance of their tasks".
§ Lord CockfieldMy Lords, will my noble friend make it clear to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, that Commissioners are not civil servants? They are one of the institutions of the Community, with their own rights and duties under the treaty. Furthermore, does he agree that one of the great virtues shown by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, is that he always says what he thinks? That has the inestimable advantage of enabling the rest of us to judge whether what he thinks, and not merely what he says, is right or wrong. Would it not be desirable to extend the same courtesy to M. Jacques Delors?
§ Lord Cavendish of FurnessMy Lords, I must leave the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, to make what he might of those remarks, and with his great experience I am sure that he will. I agree that the noble Lord has many virtues.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, are the Government satisfied that the President of the Commission can behave just as he likes? No matter how deleterious or offensive he is to this nation, the Government are not prepared to do anything but simply kowtow to the President of the Commission. Is the Commission so powerful that it can dictate to our country?
§ Lord Cavendish of FurnessMy Lords, the Commission certainly cannot dictate to our country, nor does it seek to do so. When the Commission acts it must do so by a majority of its members. Its acts comprise proposing legislation to the Council of Ministers and taking decisions on its own authority under powers specifically delegated to it by the Council. In respect of the former we retain control. In respect of the latter we have chosen to delegate under carefully drawn conditions. The situation is no more and no less than that.
§ Lord Williams of ElvelMy Lords, I have tried to follow this period of Question Time but there have been certain interruptions. Can the noble Lord confirm that the figure who walked past the Opposition Front Bench was not in fact M. Delors?
§ Lord Cavendish of FurnessMy Lords, I was so heavily concentrating on the question being asked by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, that I did not notice. The figure was closer to the noble Lord, Lord Williams, than he was to me.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, is it not a fact that the behaviour of M. Jacques Delors is often quite inexplicable, certainly in terms of British democracy? He seeks, or appears to seek, to interfere in the internal affairs of member states. Is it not the fault of our politicians and former leaders that we have allowed ourselves to be governed in part by a small, unelected junta sitting in a foreign capital?
§ Lard Cavendish of FurnessMy Lords, I believe the noble Lord misunderstands the problem. When we join an international organisation which has previously made historic progress, we must accommodate different stylistic changes. When M. Delors was questioned about the matter by the British press he said that he sometimes talked frankly in order to ensure that he was understood. He said that frankness was closer to friendship than hypocrisy, as I am sure we all agree.
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that inasmuch as it has been established that members of the Commission are not civil servants, perhaps M. Delors talks frankly in order to establish that he is neither civil nor a servant?
The Earl of HalsburyMy Lords, do we not need a new collective noun? Just as we talk of a gaggle of geese, should we not talk of a babble of bureaucrats in Brussels?
§ Lord Cavendish of FurnessMy Lords, I believe that we have the collective noun; it is the Commission.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, will the Minister convey to his noble friend Lord Cock field my deepest appreciation of his expressions of my sincerity in these matters? Will Her Majesty's Government bear in mind that, being as frank as I am on these occasions, I shall not hesitate to protect the future Labour Government from any such infringements in the same way as I have defended them?
§ Lord Cavendish of FurnessMy Lords, I know that all noble Lords appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, speaks with utter sincerity and feels most strongly about these matters.