Eastern Europe: Pollution (Hansard, 10 July 1991)

Viscount Astor
My Lords, we have provided advice and assistance to the Polish and Czech environment Ministers, and to officials from these and other East European countries. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment attended the Environment for Europe conference of East and West European environment Ministers in Czechoslovakia last month and announced that £5 million would be made available to support environmental regeneration in Eastern Europe.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his reply, including the announcement of the figure by the British Government. For years factories in Eastern Europe have been allowed to emit noxious pollution. Although the United Kingdom has the expertise, has agreement been reached on how the costs—and in future they will be extensive—will be borne for modifications and renewals, which will also improve conditions in parts of Western Europe?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, the important point is that we must be in a position to help these countries to help themselves. One of the conclusions of the conference was that the East European countries would be best served by a democratic political system, with free market economies, where governments set high environmental standards and industry provides the economic growth and the investment necessary to meet those standards. We are also giving Eastern Europe multilateral assistance through the various EC funds, the World Bank, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development and also through the Government's know-how fund.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, although we welcome the announcement about the £5 million, can the noble Viscount tell us the priorities that have been set within that sum? I know that all the money is to be spent on environmental advice, but can the Minister say how it is to be prioritised? He referred to the Foreign Office know-how fund. Can he tell us why that particular fund does not include any money for environmental advice, although it includes a whole list of other things? As regards the money which we give through the PHARE programme can the Minister say how that money is allocated? Although we have general figures, we have very little idea how the money is spent.

Viscount Astor
My Lords, the programme involving £5 million announced by the Secretary of 1392 State will be over three years. It will contribute to improving environmental management through institutional building at government level by training in and exposure to British expertise in a number of environmental fields. These will include environmental legislation, industry, pollution control, monitoring, environmental audit, nature conservation and the organisation of the environmental sector. As regards the know-how fund, that is bilateral assistance. I cannot be specific on how much of it will affect specific environmental matters. However, we spent £15 million on Eastern Europe in 1990–91. The commitment has doubled to £30 million for 1991–92. The Soviet fund has been allocated £20 million over two years, beginning in April 1991. As regards the EC, we believe that more than 20 per cent. of the 1990 budget of £360 million was spent in the environmental field. The budget for 1991 is about £595 million, and £700 million is foreseen for 1992.

§ Lord Whaddon
My Lords, does the noble Viscount appreciate that effective pollution control cannot be achieved by any simplistic measure and that it requires the involvement of Western industrial technology throughout the productive process? Therefore, will Her Majesty's Government give serious consideration to the Polish suggestion, which I raised in this House on 3rd June, regarding the exchange of equity in Polish industry for external debt? That would thereby involve British firms intimately throughout the productive process and give us something in return for the debt.

Viscount Astor
My Lords, the environment Ministers of the Czech Republic and Poland visited this country late last year. Through the Department of Trade and Industry we support British companies with advice and consultation for the work that they can do in those countries. The suggestion that the noble Lord has made is a general and interesting one, but it is not purely a matter of the environmental issue.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, does the noble Viscount agree that we need the correct combination of stick and carrot in this context? He has outlined the proposals which provide the carrot, but what about the stick? There should be no entry to the EC until solid beginnings and results have been shown for the reduction of pollution.

Viscount Astor
My Lords, the noble Earl makes an interesting point. We have a substantial programme offering carrots at almost every turn of the corner. We shall want to see how that works before we start looking at the stick.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the once golden sands of the north-east coast of England are now black from deposits of coal waste? Although I concede that the North East of England is not Eastern Europe, can the noble Viscount give me one good reason why the same help should not be given to our own country as now applies to Eastern Europe?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, we have a substantial programme of environmental protection in this country which is much greater than that which we are offering to any country in Eastern Europe.