HL Deb 25 October 1990 vol 522 cc1540-6

".—(1) The Secretary of State may from time to time, by order, designate for the purposes of this section such recognised bodies as appear to him—

  1. (a) to have as their principal purpose the promotion of a religious objective;
  2. (b) to have as their principal activity the regular holding of acts of public worship; and
  3. (c) to be bodies which satisfy each of the conditions mentioned in subsection (2) below.

(2) The conditions referred to in subsection (1) (c) above are—

  1. (a) subject to subsection (4) below, that the body has been established in Scotland for not less than 10 years;
  2. (b) that the body can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Secretary of State that it has a membership of not less than 3,000 persons resident in Scotland who are 16 years of age or more; and
  3. (c) that the internal organisation of the body is such that one or more authorities in Scotland exercise supervisory and disciplinary functions in respect of the component elements of the body and, in particular, that there are imposed on such component elements requirements as to the keeping of accounting records and the auditing of accounts which appear to the Secretary of State to correspond to those required by sections 3 and 4 of this Act.

(3) Where a body is, for the time being, designated under subsection (1) above the following provisions of this Part a this Act shall not apply to the body nor to any component or structural element of the body which is, itself, a recognised body—

  1. section 1(5);
  2. section 3;
  3. section 4, other than subsections (6) to (8) and subsection (12);
  4. section 5(2) and (6);
  5. section 6; and
  6. section 7.

(4) The Secretary of State may determine that the condition mentioned in subsection (2) (a) above shall not be required to be satisfied in the case of a body—

  1. (a) which has been created by the amalgamation of two or more bodies each of which, immediately before the amalgamation, either was designated under this section or appears to the Secretary of State to have been eligible for such designation; or
  2. (b) which has been constituted by persons who have removed themselves from membership of a body which, immediately before such removal, was so designated or appears to the Secretary of State to have been eligible for such designation.'.

Lord Fraser of Carmyllie

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 7.

The new clause seeks to provide a measure of exemption from the supervisory and accounting sections of Part I for religious organisations with a substantial following in Scotland. Your Lordships will recall that this matter was raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morton of Shuna, during earlier proceedings in this House when I undertook to consider the matter further. This clause is the outcome of the Government's further consideration.

Forceful representations were made to the Government that charities for the advancement of religion—Churches—are in some respects a special case. Religious freedom is of course a fundamental right of people in this country and we must be very careful that in establishing a system of supervision we do not prejudice or appear to prejudice that freedom.

A most important consideration is that if we were to provide a blanket exemption for all bodies established for the advancement of religion many undesirable cult-like bodies would escape control. Some unscrupulous people might indeed deliberately set up charities with spurious religious purposes to escape the controls contained in the Bill. That must be avoided.

A distinction also needs to be drawn between taking action to intervene in a Church's affairs or to enforce compliance, on the one hand; and simply including the Churches within the purview of those provisions concerned with disclosure, accounts and my right to investigate, on the other.

A further consideration, and one which was of particular concern in another place, is that for obvious reasons we do not wish to discriminate in favour of one religion over another on grounds of religious doctrine. That is certainly no business of the state. The new clause affords religious organisations capable of meeting certain criteria the opportunity of opting out from the supervisory and investigatory functions of the Lord Advocate and the courts. It enables them to continue to prepare accounts in the manner they have in the past, provided such accounts are generally of a standard similar to those provided for in Clauses 3 and 4. It removes the possibility of sanctions being applied for non-compliance but retains a right for members of the public to seek copies of accounts and the explanatory document.

The provisions are necessarily a compromise but I believe they strike a reasonable balance between ensuring that there is internal control within the religious body as regards discipline and requirement for production of accounts; preserving a right for the public to be informed but removing from such bodies anxiety, however misplaced that anxiety may seem, about interference by the state.

The clause has the support of the Scottish Churches Committee, a body representing all the major Churches in Scotland, whose combined membership of people over the age of 16 amounts to an estimated 1,600,000. Despite widespread press reporting of the consideration of the former clause in another place, and having since consulted the minor Christian Churches including Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, the Society of Friends, the Salvation Army and the non-Christian religions in Scotland including the Hebrew Congregation, members of the Islamic faith and Hindu faith, and a wide variety of smaller bodies, we have received no representations that the provisions are unacceptable. On the other hand, we received very strong representations from the Scottish Churches Committee, the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, and various parish ministers that the clause should be introduced.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 6.—(Lord Fraser of Carmyllie.)

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, perhaps I may ask my noble and learned friend how people will know when a religion has been recognised. Will that information be officially made public so that we know what is on the list and what is not?

Lord Macaulay of Bragar

My Lords, this is a peculiarly worded amendment the purpose of which is perfectly clear, as the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate explained. We all agree that cult-like bodies —a phrase used at an earlier stage in the consideration of the Bill—should not benefit along with what may be called legitimate religious bodies. Perhaps the Lord Advocate could identify, not necessarily by name but by number and constitution, each cult-like body which exists in Scotland at the moment and which would not benefit from the clause. It is always difficult to draw a dividing line between a legitimate body and a cult-like body. A cult-like body does not necessarily become irreligious because it is a cult. It may therefore be a circular argument.

I appreciate that the Scottish Churches Committee has not raised objection to the figure of 3,000 persons. I noted that the Lord Advocate said that the major Churches in Scotland had been consulted. Perhaps he could identify as a matter of information and record which Churches in Scotland are regarded as major and took part in the consultative process.

The conditions laid down are that the body must be established in Scotland for not less than 10 years. That appears to be the starting point. If we take it from the time of the inception of the Bill a body would need to be in existence for 10 years. There is then a requirement for a membership of not fewer than 3,000 persons—that is, 3,000 or more—resident in Scotland who are 16 years of age. That appears to raise difficulties of interpretation and application.

Why should a member of a perfectly legitimate Church in Scotland who is exiled in London or Manchester for example, not be counted among the membership of that Church? Why is it a necessary qualification to be counted among the 3,000 that one must be resident in Scotland? It was estimated that at one time one in every 10 persons in London was a Scot or of Scottish origin. Those people, and people in other parts of the United Kingdom, for economic and personal reasons have no choice but to live in a place outwith Scotland. It would therefore appear that the provision that the member should be resident in Scotland is onerous not only to that person and deprives him of a right under the law, but is onerous to the Church in attempting to achieve the membership of 3,000.

The other issue worthy of consideration is the age qualification of 16 years. Why should membership be confined to persons of 16 years of age or more? Is the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate suggesting that a person cannot be a Christian unless he is over 16? I am sure many young people have, to use a religious phrase, seen the light well before the age of 16. They may very well lose the light after that, but there are many young people attached to Churches who could be regarded, if not in the full sense, as part of the membership, certainly in the nominal sense of the word.

One of the problems in that section is that the word "member" is not defined. The Lord Advocate may or may not be aware that certain Churches have members and adherents to them: adherents being persons who attend the church regularly but who have not taken part in communion. Are they to be excluded from a e category of membership and not count in the figure of 3,000 which has been set down?

It may be that the figure will have to fluctuate as the attendance at Churches goes down. At present Church attendances are plummeting drastically and they may have to be closely monitored to ascertain whether the figure of 3,000 is reasonable bearing in mind that Church membership, in the broad sense of the word, can fall one way or another, perhaps by division within the Church or otherwise.

It is well known that in certain Churches young people take communion as early as the age of eight. Are those young people who have entered into a Christian commitment within a Church at the age of eight to be included within the membership of the Church or are they and their Church to be excluded from the benefits of the new clause? I do not raise these issues just to be awkward. These are genuine matter; arising from the amendment, which, perhaps I may say, does its best to meet the problem that we all recognise. However, these matters are of great concern not only to the Churches themselves but to persons who regard themselves as members of a Church, whether or not they are communicants, and who by being excluded from membership may affect the right of their Church to have the benefits outlined in the new clause.

Lord Morton of Shuna

My Lords, as I tabled the original amendment I welcome the present amendment so far as it goes. I am sorry that the Government have not accepted my suggestion that the easy way would be for the Secretary of State to nominate certain bodies as religious organisations because the present amendment raises complications.

One of the reasons why this is a constitutionally important matter is the Act of Union, which no doubt my noble and learned friend Lord McCluskey will refer to in another context. The Church of Scotland has a separate existence from legislation in this House and another place. By an Act of 1926 this place recognised the Church of Scotland's right to control its own discipline, and so on. Therefore, the whole business of controlling the Church of Scotland as the established Church raised all sorts of constitutional issues.

This amendment has been agreed by the Scottish Churches Committee. From memory—subject to correction, as I have no doubt the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate has the information—that is the Church of Scotland, the Free Church of Scotland, the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, the Baptist Union, the Congregationalists, the Episcopal Church in Scotland and others. There is a difficulty of definition that has always existed over who is a member of a Church and how one arrives at the numbers in a Church. That is why the new clause as drafted will create more difficulties than it perhaps solves. An easier and simpler method is available to the Government.

There is also the difficulty that subsection (3) of the new clause refers to various clauses in the Bill that do not apply. Thus we have the curious situation that, if a Church decides not to respond to a request for its explanatory document—and one can see why, if it has difficulties—or not to respond to a request for its accounts, there are no sanctions. All that happens is that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue note the fact as often as they care to do so. It seems to me that we are on a more detailed point and raising difficulties if we pass into legislation a requirement that has no sanctions if it is not met. That is a criticism of the way in which the new clause is drafted.

I have no doubt that all the Churches will produce their accounts to anyone who wishes to see them, but one can easily foresee a body holding anti-religious feelings or one which is against one specific religion taking the view that it will make trouble by continuously writing and asking for information. There is no way to stop that and there is no way to enforce the requirement. The new clause has not been fully thought through, but so far as it goes I welcome it.

4.15 p.m.

Lord Fraser of Carmyllie

My Lords, clearly the structure of different denominations within the Christian faith and others faiths varies very widely indeed. What is considered to be full membership or what are considered to be adherents can be very different in various circumstances. We have sought to lay down a broad set of conditions which are likely to apply to most of the major denominations in Scotland. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morton, correctly—

Lord Morton of Shuna

My Lords—

Lord Fraser of Carmyllie

My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to finish the sentence.

Lord Morton of Shuna

My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord completes the sentence, and in order to ensure that he does not offend others, perhaps when using the word "denominations" he will say "denominations and religions". It is important that religions other than the Christian religion should be recognised.

Lord Fraser of Carmyllie

My Lords, I thought I had made clear in my opening remarks that this is not a clause that relates simply to the Christian faith and denominations within it but also to Hindus, Moslems and others who are established in Scotland.

I was about to say that all the major Churches in Scotland, and all those mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, are members of the Scottish Churches Committee and are aware of and have approved the broad set of conditions that we have indicated as being appropriate. Indeed, as I said, the Moderator of the General Assembly has given strong support for our proposals.

To answer the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, the Secretary of State is under a duty to designate, and because of that it will be possible to know that he has designated, a particular body as falling within this new clause and it will thus be excluded.

This is a question of seeking to achieve a balance. The Government have no inclination to involve themselves in the activities of a Church or in doctrinal matters, and so on. Nevertheless, there is a proper public interest in making sure that those who have the advantage of charitable status under our law should meet a set of conditions in regard to keeping accounts and ensuring that money contributed to them is put to proper purposes. We would be unwise to assume, particularly in Scotland, that there have not been bodies claiming to be cults or small Churches that have grossly abused the status conferred upon them by our law. I hope that the arrangements we have established, while perhaps not entirely meeting the needs of any particular Church, will broadly speaking provide a standard and uniform test.

The age of 16 is generally agreed to be the age in Scotland at which a person knows his or her own mind. At that age they can leave school and get married. Of course some of the most important and largest of our denominations accept that a person can have a knowledge and appreciation of religious matters at an earlier age; but we consider the age of 16 to be right for this condition.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, for many years I represented in another place a constituency which was one of the melting pots for various religions; in many cases world religions, including Sikhs, Moslems, Hindus and so on. I saw such religions in the area growing from relatively small groups of under 3,000 members, but they were branches or parts of religions far bigger than the Church of Scotland and other established Christian religions in Scotland. It seems to me that they would be covered. I shall be interested to hear whether the Minister can give me an assurance about that. I saw the groups building up from 40 to 50 people to fairly large congregations. However, I suspect that some of them are still not much more than about 3,000 strong. I shall be happy if the Minister can reassure me on that point for the sake of the people who will certainly be asking me about it.

Lord Fraser of Carmyllie

My Lords, I indicated that I cannot say whether any small Moslem community in the West of Scotland is already at a level that would meet the conditions referred to. What is important is that the new clause at subsection (2) (c) states that there should be an internal organisation of the body (that) is such that one or more authorities in Scotland exercise supervisory and disciplinary functions in respect of the component elements of the body and, in particular, that there are imposed on such component elements requirements as to the keeping of accounting records and the auditing of accounts". It seems that whether one is Moslem, Hindu or a member of any other faith, there is no good reason why such people should not meet that requirement if they so desire.

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, is it intended to have an advisory committee on this matter or will it be a decision which is purely and simply for the Secretary of State? It is an extremely difficult decision to make in some circumstances. It is not necessary for it to be in this Bill, but it might be helpful to have some kind of an advisory circle.

Lord Fraser of Carmyllie

My Lords, there is no provision made for such an advisory body. In deciding whether to designate such a body as a religious one the Secretary of State would have to have regard to the statutory conditions that are set down. It would be extremely dangerous for him to have a body that might advise him to depart from such conditions set out in primary legislation. I have no doubt that with this new arrangement being introduced in Scotland the Secretary of State, the Churches and other religious organisations will wish to monitor the progress very carefully indeed.

On Question, Motion agreed to.