§ 3.40 p.m.
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on the Middle East. The Statement is as follows:
§ "With permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall make a Statement about developments in the Middle East since the emergency debate on 6th and 7th September.
§ "Then, the House endorsed the Government's policy, which is that of the entire international community. Saddam Hussein must leave Kuwait and the legitimate government must be restored. Iraq must release our hostages.
§ "Since the House met, at the United Nations we have applied growing pressure to Iraq. Negotiations are now under way in New York for a further resolution, to hold Iraq liable to pay compensation for the damage resulting from its actions, including the maltreatment of foreign nationals and property.
§ "Sanctions have been enforced, in particular by the effective blockade by allied ships now operating in the area. Over 100 ships from twelve countries are on constant patrol enforcing the embargo. The Royal Navy has challenged over 1,100 vessels and hay taken part in 10 boarding operations. The House will wish to pay tribute to the courage and professionalism of the Royal Navy.
§ "The United Nations will continue to tighten the screw of sanctions. We cannot relax our determination to ensure Saddam Hussein's complete and unconditional withdrawal from Kuwait. Since the House met, there have been many more examples of his tyranny. All the evidence suggests that, far from being under strict orders to behave with discipline in Kuwait, Iraq's soldiers have been 1348 allowed complete licence. The House will be aware that many Kuwaitis who have been able to escape their occupied country have testified to wanton destruction of property and to cruel and inhuman treatment of Kuwaiti citizens, including several murders carried out in front of wives and children, rape and torture. I remind the Iraqis once again that at all levels of authority, military or civilian, they are personally responsible under the Geneva Convention for illegal acts committed as occupiers in Kuwait.
§ "In these circumstances, one of our first concerns has been the welfare of the 800 British people still in Iraq, and of the remaining substantial British community in Kuwait. In Kuwait, our Embassy, one of the last to stay open, is now staffed by the Ambassador and one colleague. They will continue, through the warden system, to help Britons in Kuwait as long as is physically and practically possible.
§ "We welcome the release of British nationals in response to the humanitarian appeal by my right honourable friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup. But I find it grisly and repulsive that the Iraqis should set about deciding who is so sick and so old that they should be released from a position in which no human being should ever have been placed and in which hundreds still remain. All our nationals—all foreign nationals—should be allowed to leave Iraq. I admire the courage of those detained or in hiding in Iraq and Kuwait and of their families here. Our Embassies have helped organise the evacuation of over 900 women and children and we are doing what we can to ensure that those who remain in Iraq have the money and comforts they need.
§ "The situation is particularly agonising for families here at home. We are working closely with the Gulf Support Group to provide as much help and information as we can. We cannot work miracles. But my staff and that of the Embassy in Baghdad are working round the clock on these problems. Where complaints have been made, we are investigating them urgently. Where there is room for improvement, we are making those improvements as quickly as we can.
§ "We should not forget that the plight of our hostages is caused by Saddam Hussein. It is he who is playing cat and mouse with them. The British Government and this Parliament cannot be blackmailed.
§ "The United States and Britain moved fast immediately after the invasion of Kuwait to protect Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries from the threat of attack. Since then, a unique coalition of forces from 25 countries has been established in the Gulf. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence announced on 14th September the deployment of the 7th Armoured Brigade (the Desert Rats) and of more Tornado aircraft. This will bring the total number of British forces committed to the Gulf to some 16,000.
1349§ "Saddam Hussein will seek to cling on to the country which he has acquired by force or perhaps to negotiate his way out so that he can claim some gain from his aggression. He has tried to sow disunity among the coalition ranged against him, with a variety of bogus peace plans, delaying tactics and smokescreens. One of these is his attempt to present himself as the champion of the Palestinian cause. In fact, the Palestinian cause has been set back by Iraq's aggression and the credibility of the PLO has been damaged by their ambivalent response to it.
§ "Some have suggested that Saddam Hussein should be persuaded to withdraw from Kuwait in exchange for an international conference on the Middle East. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the countries of the Gulf and the government of Kuwait have all firmly rejected that suggestion. Iraq's withdrawal must be complete and unconditional. Members of this House and the British Government have long argued the urgent need to find a lasting settlement in the Middle East. Once Iraq is out of Kuwait, we must return to this issue. The policy of the British Government is clear and is the one I restated during my recent visit; that is, self-determination for the Palestinian people and the right of Israel to live in peace behind secure borders.
§ "The killing of 21 Palestinians on the Dome of the Rock or Temple Mount on 8th October and the latest murder of Israelis underlines the tragedy of the Arab/Israel dispute. The cycle of violence is repeating itself. I hope the government of Israel may yet agree to accept the UN Secretary General's mission to investigate those killings. To do otherwise will risk diverting the Security Council from its main task—getting Iraq out of Kuwait—and will give Saddam Hussein a cause which he will exploit ruthlessly.
§ "Mr. Speaker, our aim remains Iraq's complete withdrawal from Kuwait and the restoration of Kuwait's legitimate government. At a meeting of the Kuwaiti ruling family and their people in Jedda earlier this month, there was an impressive display of the loyalty of all Kuwaitis and of the unity which the crisis has produced. The Kuwaitis have announced their intention to implement in full the 1962 democratic constitution when the legitimate government is restored. Many will welcome that decision, which was taken freely by Kuwaitis. In the meantime, the pressures on Saddam Hussein remain diplomatic isolation, the economic blockade and the threat of forcible expulsion from Kuwait. Saddam Hussein's choice is simple: retreat or defeat. The Government, and doubtless this House, strongly hope that the restoration of Kuwait will be achieved without further bloodshed. But the daily destruction of Kuwait and the murder of its people continue. We are tightening the screw of peaceful pressures but we cannot shirk our part in the alternative course if that course finally becomes necessary."
§ My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
1350§ 3.49 p.m.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, we are grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement. In the Statement the Foreign Secretary refers to the objectives of the United Nations laid down in the Security Council Resolutions 661, 665 and 670. It speaks of the effective blockade now in operation.
We join the right honourable gentleman in paying tribute to the Royal Navy and our other forces now stationed in the Middle East. However, can the Minister go a step further and say what evidence there is of that effectiveness? Can he confirm that there have been no serious breaches of the sea, land and air blockades? That is a point of some importance. We see a great deal on television, with some evidence that there is no lack of foodstuffs in Iraq. To what extent is that true, or is that propaganda? We know that Saddam Hussein is an expert propagandist.
Can the Minister give an estimate of how long the Government consider it will take for the sanctions to force the withdrawal of Iraqi troops from Kuwait? In the Statement, the Foreign Secretary referred to continuing to tighten the screw. What does that mean? Is any further or different action from that now taking place proposed for our forces or the United Nations forces?
We join with the Secretary of State in condemning the Iraqi troops who are guilty of barbaric acts of cruelty towards the innocent population of Kuwait. If justice is to mean anything in the international community then Saddam Hussein must answer to that at some stage.
In regard to Israel and the occupied territories, does the noble Lord agree that the recent Temple Mount shootings and the present disturbances threaten to deflect attention from the main cause of the current crisis in the Middle East; namely, the unprovoked aggression by Saddam Hussein? Further, while appreciating the extreme delicacy of the situation in Israel and throughout the Middle East as a whole, is the noble Lord able to tell the House when the Foreign Secretary will be able to meet Palestinian representatives? Can the Minister say whether Her Majesty's Government have made representations to the Israeli government on the present curfew that is being enforced in the occupied territories?
The House should be grateful to Mr. Heath for his personal efforts to secure the release of 33 British hostages who have been held in Iraq. While not losing sight of the fact that the retention of hostages by the Iraqis is a flagrant violation of international law and an act of historic cruelty, against that background can the noble Lord tell the House how many more hostages he expects to be released? Can he also inform us of what further steps the Government are taking? I believe that Mr. Heath referred to possible constitutional measures, but what he was thinking of I do not know. Are the Government prepared to take any other steps to secure the release of the remaining hostages?
1351 Finally, in the Statement the Foreign Secretary expresses the hope that the restoration of Kuwait will be achieved without further bloodshed. We echo that hope and will support all steps taken to that end.
Lori Bonham-CarterMy Lords, I too join in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Reay, for repeating the Statement and I concur with the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, in looking forward to the answers to the questions that he has put to the Minister.
We on these Benches agree with the Statement in so far as we agree that the pressure of sanctions must be maintained. We also associate ourselves with the tribute paid in the Statement, and by the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, to the work of our armed forces in that area. We also agree that the Government must maintain pressure in connection with the 800 British nationals still in Iraq. I pay tribute to the efforts made by Mr. Heath to secure the release of all too few of them.
The aim of the Government's policy—and we are in total agreement with it—must be to secure the withdrawal of Iraqi forces from Kuwait. There are, of course, many other issues which need to be discussed, but a Statement is hardly the right occasion on which to raise them. However, I hope that the debate on the Queen's Speech will provide that opportunity and that the subject can be debated more fully.
I must confess that one aspect of the Statement surprises me. When we were told that the Statement was to be made I drew the conclusion that it would be about the Foreign Secretary's visit, on why he went, what he expected to achieve and what in fact was the outcome. The Statement covers none of those aspects. That is rather odd. The Foreign Secretary has made an important visit to the Middle East—a very important visit— and I am sure that it was not his fault that it was hardly one of the most successful diplomatic ventures in which he has been engaged. If a Statement is made about the Middle East within a week of such a visit, surely some reference should have been made to that visit. For example, the Statement says:
The policy of the British Government is clear and is the one I restated during my recent visit; that is, self-determination for the Palestinian people and the right of Israel to live in peace behind secure borders".Your Lordships know that this was a critical matter during the course of the Foreign Secretary's visit. As a result of a statement which he made, which he says was misreported, his meeting with the Palestinians was cancelled. I should have expected to hear the contents of the statement he had intended to convey and what the outcome has been as a result of the misreporting.I am most grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement. I look forward to hearing his answers to the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, but I must register my surprise that a Statement made after such an important visit should be so uncommunicative.
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition for his reception of the Statement and also for much, though not all, of what the noble Lord, Lord Bonham-Carter, had to say.
1352 The noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, asked what information the Government have on sanctions and the breaching of sanctions. Our monitoring shows that some limited supplies are still getting through. We are following up all reports of breaches either bilaterally in the capitals or through the United Nations. We do not believe that there is systematic breaching of sanctions by any government, but the noble Lord will appreciate that it is virtually impossible to prevent all breaches of the sanctions. The key point is that Iraq is exceptionally vulnerable to sanctions and that the current embargo is exceptionally tight. There is no question but that it is making life extremely difficult for the Iraqis and that it is bringing home to Saddam Hussein the extent of his international isolation.
The noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, also asked about the effect of sanctions. I can say that all the outlets for oil are now effectively blocked. Neighbouring countries—Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Jordan—have all announced that they are implementing sanctions. That is the information I have for the noble Lord and for the House on that matter.
The noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, also referred to Israel and the Israeli/Arab conflict. Our concerns about the situation in Israel have been made clear to the Israeli Government and we hope that they will receive the United Nations mission as called for in Security Council Resolution 672.
The noble Lord also asked about the hostages. There is intense international pressure on Iraq to allow all foreign nationals who wish to do so to leave the country. We have appealed frequently and vigorously to the Iraqi authorities in Baghdad and to the Iraqi ambassador in London for the release of all British nationals.
The noble Lord, Lord Bonham-Carter, said that he was surprised about the nature of the Statement and complained that it is not very informative. On the contrary, it is an extensive Statement giving a considerable amount of information. It explains why it was made; namely, to bring the House up to date since we had the emergency debate in September on the Middle East generally.
§ 3.59 p.m.
§ Lord MayhewMy Lords, was not my noble friend right to draw attention to the fact that the Statement does not cover the very important but disappointing events that followed a remark made by the Foreign Secretary to some Knesset members when he visited Israel? The remark implied, rightly or wrongly, that the Government were antipathetic to the idea of a Palestinian state. Can the noble Lord clarify that? He said that the Government support self-determination for the Palestinians. That surely must mean that, when the Palestinians are free to decide, if they decide on a independent state, then the British Government believe that they have a right to do so. Is that not the case? Can the Minister say how it came about that the Foreign Secretary was misunderstood as being antipathetic to the idea of an independent Palestinian state?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, our position on this matter has not changed. It is still one of belief in self-determination.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, will the noble Lord answer the question which the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, has just put? In the Statement the Foreign Secretary says that he made it plain that it was the continued policy of Her Majesty's Government to support self-determination for the Palestinians in the occupied territories. Does that mean that the British Government do or do not support the concept of a separate Palestinian state? Further to that point, I understand that the luncheon for the Foreign Secretary and the Palestinian representatives was cancelled because of what the Foreign Secretary held to be a misrepresentation of what he had said at a meeting with a number of Israelis. That interpretation was broadcast on Israeli television at nine o'clock in the evening before the day of the luncheon. Can the Minister say what the British diplomats in Tel Aviv and the Foreign Secretary's entourage were doing if they did not bring that statement to the notice of the Foreign Secretary so that he could contradict it if he had been falsely reported? I ask the Minister to answer those two questions. Does self-determination include the right to a separate Palestinian state? What were the details concerning the cancellation of the luncheon with the Palestinian representatives?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, we believe that there has to be a freely-negotiated settlement. Only by that means is there a route to Israeli security and the satisfaction of Palestinian aspirations. We must first get Iraq out of Kuwait; then we can return to the peace process. We believe that is the right procedure.
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, can the Minister give some further elucidation on the position in Jordan? What is the latest position concerning refugees coming out of Iraq? Can the Minister say what the conditions are in the camps at the moment? Do the Government foresee a further flood of refugees in the near future? Further, is the noble Lord aware that the happenings in Israel and the stopping of Palestinians going about their lawful occasions and going to work, will put even greater economic pressure on the Palestinian community there which is already suffering because of the loss of remittances from Iraq? Can the Minister say what can be done about that and what pressures have been put on the Israeli Government for them to understand that situation?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, the vast majority of refugees in Jordan have now been returned to the home nations. Apart from that a considerable amount of assistance is being made available to them through various international organisations in which we play our full part.
§ Lord RichardMy Lords, is the Minister aware that there appears to be a growing divergence at least in atmosphere between some of the countries in the area and the United States and Great Britain concerning the issue of whether Saddam Hussein should be made to disgorge Kuwait through the process of negotiation or whether we should merely stand firm and pat on the issue of seeing whether sanctions work and, if 1354 necessary, use force? Can the Minister tell us whether the Government are satisfied that the alliance, so painstakingly and successfully set up after the invasion, is still holding firm? Can the Minister further say whether the basic attitude of all the countries in that alliance still remains the same? I am sure that he will appreciate that if there are divergences of opinion we should consider them very seriously indeed.
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, I repeat that our objective, which is shared with the United Nations, the United States, our European friends and allies and most of the Arab states, is to secure the complete and unconditional withdrawal of Iraq. We do not believe that there is anything to negotiate about. The international community has made perfectly clear its requirement that Iraq should comply with the Security Council resolutions. We have seen remarkable determination and purpose in the role of the United Nations. It has responded with unprecedented solidarity and vigour to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. We fervently believe that that will continue.
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, I wonder whether—
§ Lord CallaghanMy Lords, as I understand it, the Government's belief and hope—and I believe it is also the belief and hope of all of us—is that sanctions will be sufficient in the end to compel the withdrawal of Saddam Hussein without war. I hope that we all trust that that will be so. In those circumstances, will the Minister convey to all his Cabinet colleagues that it is of supreme importance that the British and American public understand that sanctions will not work in the short run? I trust that that is a viable policy and will produce the required results. If that is so, then that policy must be given a long time to work. We cannot expect to produce a withdrawal within a short period of time. If that policy does not work then we shall be faced with some very difficult questions.
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, the House will wish to ponder carefully the words of the noble Lord. We strongly hope, as I said in my original Statement, that the restoration of Kuwait will be achieved without further bloodshed.
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan. He will doubtless be as surprised as I am at his popularity on the Government Back-Benches. It has not always been the case. Will the Minister now answer the question I put to him concerning the situation in the occupied territories?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, I do not have any further information to add to what I said regarding the situation in the occupied territories. I repeat that we hope that Israel will agree to receive the United Nations' mission.
Lord MorrisMy Lords, we bear in mind the very wise remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan, as to the general hope that sanctions will work. Have Her Majesty's Government worked out how much this crisis costs per diem as it continues? Can the Minister say how much it is costing the Western world each day?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, I cannot put a figure on our contribution to the costs of the Western effort. I can assure the noble Lord that we are carrying our full share of the burden.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, following on the question asked by my noble friend Lord Callaghan, has the Minister seen reports that it is estimated that Iraq will be able to withstand sanctions for as long as 14 months? Has he also seen other reports that Iraq is now capable of producing not only chemical weapons, but also biological ones? In addition, Iraq may well have the ability to deliver such weapons. Is it not a fact that as well as causing strains within the alliance, the longer the crisis continues the greaten the length of time that will be given to Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis further to develop biological and chemical weapons to the detriment of the alliance?
§ Lord MayhewMy Lords, I wish to press the noble Lord on the very disappointing answer he gave on the question of the Government's attitude to self-determination for the Palestinians. From that answer it follows clearly that the Government believe that the Palestinians' right to self-determination is qualified. It is qualified by the noble Lord stating that their right to an independent state is subject to agreement between the parties concerned. That is the only possible interpretation of the answers he has given. In effect therefore the state is subject to an Israeli veto. That is a serious falling back by the Government on previous policy statements.
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, there has been no falling back by the Government on previous statements. I can assure the noble Lord that our policy remains unchanged.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, further to that point, surely the Minister should say either that self-determination includes the formation of a Palestinian state if the Palestinians so desire, or else that 11e does not know the answer, that he will find it and will then write to us.
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, I have already given the answer. We believe in self-determination on the basis of a United Nations Security Council resolution.
§ Lord Howie of TroonMy Lords, am I right in supposing that the West Bank is a piece of Jordan? What my noble friends propose is that a piece of Jordan should be given away to somebody else. Has not Jordan quite enough trouble on its plate at the moment without our trying to add to it?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, that may or may not be so. Self-determination may or may not result in an independent Palestinian state. That is the Government's view.
§ Lard Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, is not this attempt to move the emphasis of this Statement to the Palestinian question playing Saddam Hussein's propaganda game? That is what he is trying to do. I do not think that we in this House should help him by moving in that directon.
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, my noble friend is entirely right. This is a distraction from our primary purpose and primary goal today, which is to get Iraq out of Kuwait.
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, is it not the case that the Statement is headed "Statement on the Middle East"? Is it not further the case that the usual channels were told that there was to be a Statement on the Middle East and not just a Statement on Kuwait?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, I do not think anyone was complaining about the noble Lord's right to ask questions on these other matters. Neverthless, the primary goal today is to see that Iraq leaves Kuwait; and to attend to other matters is a distraction from that goal.
§ Lord BottomleyMy Lords, is it not a fact that the PLO is giving support to Iraq? It should be condemned for that; and, likewise, Israel should receive the United Nations mission. What are the Government doing to make the Israelis understand that they will be firm about Israel's right to exist? They should not give too much sympathy to the PLO.
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, the original Statement included a reference to Israel's right to exist within secure boundaries. In our view it is vital that the PLO should stick to the path of moderation which it agreed at Algiers in 1988. Its rejection of terrorism should remain unequivocal.