HL Deb 31 January 1990 vol 515 cc297-9

2.51 p.m.

Lord McCarthyasked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they can confirm the statement of the Secretary of State for Employment on BBC Radio Four on 4th January 1990, to the effect that when the Employment Bill now before Parliament becomes law "the desired balance of industrial law will have been achieved."

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, the Employment Bill published on 21st December deals with the outstanding problems of the pre-entry closed shop, secondary action and unofficial action. At this stage the Government have no plans for further industrial relations legislation but we have always made it clear that we are prepared to introduce legislation to deal with any new problems which may arise in the future.

Lord McCarthy

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. However, how does he square what he has just said with the widespread reports of the Secretary of State's interview mentioned in my Question? In The Times it was said that he had stated that the framework of legislation for the unions would be about right after the present legislation. In the Financial Times he was reported to have said that once the measures had become law the Government would consider that the industrial relations legislation would be about right. In the Guardian and the Independent he is reported to have said the same. Is what the Secretary of State said correct or is what the Minister has said today correct?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, I rather suspect that the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, is trying to make cheap political points. He is full of facts that do not stand up to examination. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State actually said: I think when those reforms are in place, we shall have the right framework with which to move forward into the 1990s". That confirms what I said in my original Answer.

Baroness Turner of Camden

My Lords, does the Minister consider that perhaps we have rather too much trade union legislation? It might be a good idea to look at repealing some that does not seem to have had much impact. For example, the Commissioner for the Rights of Trade Union Members has had little work to do. Would it not be a good idea to transfer some of the resources to the Equal Opportunities Commission, which has a great deal of work to do and very little money with which to do it?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, we have so much employment legislation only because of the abuse of powers by trade unions over several decades. As for the other point raised by the noble Baroness about whether we should look at adjusting the existing legislation, no doubt we shall be able to discuss it in detail when the Bill arrives in the House later this year.

Lord Orr-Ewing

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that Mr. Kinnock has promised that when he is elected to power he will abolish all trade union legislation introduced by this Government since the winter of discontent in 1979?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, I suspect that Mr. Kinnock and the Labour Party are slightly confused on the issue. Mr. Tony Blair, who speaks on the Labour Party's behalf in another place, recently said that he supported our views on banning the closed shop. It remains to be seen exactly what would happen if the Labour Party should ever gain power.

Lord Rochester

My Lords, do the Government recognise that, if legislation on industrial relations is to be effective, it must strike a fair balance between the interests of employers and those of employees and their representatives? When can we expect legislation in this field to be followed by the Government making positive moves to encourage greater co-operation between management and employees?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, I must say from this side of the House that that is precisely what we think we have achieved. The legislation that we have introduced over the past few years has been extremely successful. I hope that that will continue.

Lord McCarthy

My Lords, I wish to ask the noble Lord a specific question. The Government have made two general statements about future legislation in this field: to abolish wages councils and to introduce legislation on emergency disputes. Is the Secretary of State now saying that that is not being proceeded with, or is the Minister today saying that it will be proceeded with? Which is it?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, the noble Lord will have to wait. No decision has been taken on either of those two issues. He has seen the Employment Bill which was published on 21st December and which deals with the problems that I outlined. Any further action which the Government feel should be taken will have to wait for the future.