"National": Use in the UK (Hansard, 17 October 1989)

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, the term "national" is used in the titles, of some 40 public bodies. Not all of them operate in Scotland. The national curriculum, or rivers authority, of England and Wales would perhaps be too cumbersome in a short title. Your Lordships' House had an opportunity to debate both those titles when the relevant legislation was before us.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his reply. I recognise the special problems in devising designations which clearly indicate the parts of the United Kingdom which are affected. Is he aware that many people in Scotland were misled into thinking that the national curriculum and therefore also the Education Reform Bill would apply to schools in Scotland and that the media have also experienced difficulties? I have with me an article from a daily United Kingdom newspaper describing the rivers authority several times as applying to the whole of Britain.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the Government were concerned to emphasise that there would be national coverage when the new rivers authority and the new curriculum were being set up. It is true that in both cases the proposals did not apply to Scotland. I regret the misunderstanding that my noble friend indicates has existed. The problem may be that we lack a term to describe both England and Wales when we are talking about them and not about Scotland or Northern Ireland. However, it was made clear both in the drafting and presentation of the Bills concerned and when the debates were taking place that the term did not include Scotland.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I noted very carefully what the noble Lord the Leader of the House said. But does he not agree on reflection that it would have been more appropriate to describe the curriculum as a state curriculum because it is imposed on the nations of England and Wales, but not on all schools, merely state schools, and not on independent schools?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the noble Lord says that it was imposed. It was the subject of a Bill which received the approval of both Houses of Parliament. For each subject so far being considered in the national curriculum the Secretary of State has sought advice from non-statutory working groups and there have been two rounds of statutory consultations. There has been plenty of opportunity for many different organisations and individuals to contribute to what has come forward.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I was not dissenting from the noble Lord. I was trying to help him.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, will my noble friend take on board that this is a constant source of irritation north of the Border? There is constant reference to Anglo-Argentine relations. Even worse, we hear about the Anglo-Irish agreement. It should either be the British-Irish or the UK-Irish agreement, and not Anglo. Is it not time that the Angles kept a bit quieter?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I shall take on board what my noble friend has said. But for the time being I must stick to my original reply, which was that there is some difficulty in this matter in choosing a term which refers to both England and Wales. In this case it did not, it is true, apply either to Scotland or to Northern Ireland.

§ Lord Parry
My Lords, will the noble Lord accept that in Wales we find the term "nation" very acceptable?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. The interests of Wales were served, I believe, in what was a contentious Bill. A distinguished former Secretary of State for Wales is chairman of the National Rivers Authority. There is an absolute undertaking that there will be a Welsh representative on the board of the National Rivers Authority. He is a distinguished professor. Statutorily written into the Bill was a provision that there had to be a special regional committee to keep an eye on the interests of Wales.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, did not the late General de Gaulle refer to us all and the Americans as "les Anglo-Saxons"?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, that may very well be, but I am not entirely sure that that would please my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords is the noble Lord aware that his initial Answer does not carry complete 780 conviction? The fact that this mistake was made before is no reason for making it again, as we all know. There is no conceivable reason why the Bill should not refer simply to England and Wales. I know it is too long, but this is absurd especially in view of the general length of parliamentary drafting.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I am not sure whether the noble Lord was present in the House when the matter was debated on the Water Bill and the name of the National Rivers Authority was the subject of an amendment. Despite the fact that my noble friend Lord Caithness invited noble Lords to come up with alternatives, no one did.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, may I remind my noble friend—

Noble Lords
Ask.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he remembers that when the Bill was debated I made a suggestion that the authority should be called the National Rivers Authority for England and Wales? The reply received from the Minister was that it did not matter because Scots would not very often come across the term. That is the kind of disdain for Scottish sentiment which leads to so much trouble and which feeds Scottish nationalism and all its dangers.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, with respect to my noble friend, she is being a little less than generous because that is not the answer that I gave today. I gave a rather different answer because I looked back to see what had been said.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, does the House not agree that we seem to hear rather more about the Scots than we do about the Angles?

§ Lord Belstead
But it is always a pleasure, my Lords.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, will my noble friend accept that the point I am raising is not one of pedantic criticism but that the public in Scotland, one-tenth of our population, sometimes misread apparently casual designations as meaning that Scotland has been overlooked?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I take seriously what my noble friend has said. Before we leave this Question, I come back to an original point that I made. The word "national" is used fairly indiscriminately. For example, we talk in England and Wales about national parks. But that is a term which is not used in Scotland. In Scotland, there is quite rightly great pride in the National Gallery and the National Library—once again those being terms used north of the Border. United Kingdom-wide, we talk about the National Health Service. We also talk about the national debt.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, in the case of one of the places the noble Lord has mentioned, it is always called the National Gallery of Scotland.