§ 2.57 p.m.
§ The Viscount of Falkland asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether they will consider a change of penal policy with regard to drunkenness offenders with a stronger emphasis on treatment rather than custody.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)My Lords, the Government's aim is to divert drunkenness offenders from the criminal justice system whenever possible. Nearly half are cautioned rather than prosecuted.
The Viscount of FalklandMy Lords, is not the cost to society of public drunkenness now totally unacceptable notonly in terms of loss of life—I believe that over half of those who die in police custody have been placed in police custody for public drunkenness—but also in terms of the cost to the police and to the social and health services? Is there no way in which the Government together with local government can direct these unfortunate offenders, many of whom are habitual offenders, to detoxification centres for drying out and further counselling and treatment?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, I quite agree with the noble Viscount that the level of drunkenness is unacceptable. A circular was produced only recently—in February—on inter-departmental guidance on alcohol misuse. That recommends that local agencies work together in deciding how best to tackle the problem in each area because this is fundamentally a local problem. The Ministerial Group on Alcohol Misuse is to look at the overall position again at its next meeting on 6th June.
§ Lord Carr of HadleyMy Lords, can my noble friend give us any even broad idea of the scale of detoxification treatment and how it has increased, as I hope it has increased, over the past 10 years?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, in the late 1970s, the Department of Health spent some £2 million over a three-year period on detoxification centres. That was done on an experimental basis. In the early 1980s the Home Office spent about £31,000 over a two-year period on wet shelters. Those experimental schemes were found not to have produced very exciting results.
§ Baroness Masham of IltonMy Lords, is the Minister aware that many magistrates would like a greater choice in sentencing—for example, community service orders combined with rehabilitation—for problem drinkers?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, that is an interesting point. I should tell the noble Baroness that there is no custody for drunkenness unless it is associated with some other criminal act. The maximum fine for being drunk and disorderly is £400.
§ Lord MishconMy Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us have welcomed the statement made by the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis that he intends to see that the police force has a different and welcome appearance so far as concerns the public? Would it not form part of a police endeavour throughout the country if, instead of just cautioning, reference was made to the way in which those habits could be cured by way of a direct introduction of offenders to such centres?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, I agree that it is a matter with which everyone must be involved. One cannot leave it entirely to the police. The fact that the commissioner wishes to see the police force with a more acceptable appearance to the public is a good thing. I should say to the noble Lord that drunkenness in all its aspects is to be highly deprecated. It is a matter of great anxiety that it continues at its present level. The guidance given to all local authorities and local agencies is that they must work together on the matter. It is a local issue.
§ Lord MishconMy Lords, perhaps the noble Earl will permit me to repeat the question: would it not be welcome if, when coming across drunken offenders, the police throughout the country—quite apart from giving any caution—were to be instructed to induce those people to go to the centres that we are discussing, rather than leave it to local authorities, which, quite honestly, do not necessarily come into contact with the people at all?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord; I had misunderstood the purpose of his question. I shall certainly see that the commissioner's attention is drawn to his suggestions.
The Viscount of FalklandMy Lords, with reference to the Minister's answer to a previous question, is it not a fact that, although it may be true that police officers do not normally take a drunken person into custody unless he has committed an offence, there are often occasions when drunks on the street are themselves at risk, if not endangering other people's lives? Is it not true that they are taken into custody because there is no other place to which they can be taken?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, it is perfectly true that, when a person is found in an inebriated state, he is either cautioned or advised to go home. Periodically, he may have to be taken to a place to "dry out".
§ Baroness FaithfullMy Lords, would it not be possible to have a new order called a "care and treatment order" with a condition of residence at a detoxification centre or a hostel?