Kurds: Deportation Allegations (Hansard, 20 April 1989)

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, we have studied recent reports alleging the forced eviction of Kurds from the towns of Qala Diza and Rania, and raised these with the Iraqi authorities. They have denied any deportations to the south of the country, but have admitted to some localised resettling on security grounds.

§ Lord McNair
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, the thinness of which I recognise is probably not his fault. The latest information that reached me a quarter of an hour ago is that the threat to Qala Diza and Rania is still there. Does the Minister not agree that this threatens deportation on almost a Stalinist scale and is utterly deplorable?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, we have made clear to the Iraqis that, despite the proximity of these towns to the Iran-Iraq border, there is no justification for the mass deportations which are alleged to have occurred. My honourable friend Mr. Waldegrave, the Minister of State at the Foreign Office, saw the Iraqi ambassador only yesterday. He raised this matter with him and it was a point that was taken on board. We use every possible opportunity to raise this and similar concerns with their authorities.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, the evidence that the Iraqi Government used chemical weapons against the Kurds on at least 10 occasions is now 867 well established. The noble Lord—or the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, in his place—expressed the concern of Her Majesty's Government about that matter. In addition, the evidence of the forcible transportation of entire populations is well established. In the light of this, can the Minister say to what extent the Government are proposing to attend the Baghdad arms fair? Is it not time that the British Government took the most condign action against the Iraqi Government for conduct which is as bad as that which Hitler used during the Second World War?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, as the House knows well, we utterly condemn the use of chemical weapons wherever that may occur. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State made a clear statement to that effect on 30th November last year. Perhaps the only sensible way of dealing with chemical weapons would be a globally verifiable ban, which would provide the answer to the threat of their future use.
There is some doubt as to whether the forcible deportations which have been referred to have taken place in quite the way that has been suggested. At the meeting that took place yesterday the ambassador gave clear reassurances that no mass evacuations to the south were taking place.
As regards the arms fair, British arms supplies to both Iran and Iraq continue to be governed by very strict guidelines preventing the supply of lethal equipment to either side. I can assure the House that these guidelines are scrupulously applied.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, can the Minister say what these guidelines are? If Her Majesty's Government know of the terrible things that the Iraq Government are doing against the defenceless Kurds, why are we having anything to do with that government at all? Can the Minister say whether it is the case that Her Majesty's Government have sent a trade representative to Iraq to seek to improve trade relations? Why should we have trade relations with a government who do these things?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, apart from the troubles in Iraq and accepting the concern that the noble Lord expresses, we have to maintain some kind of constructive relationship. The possibility of that through trade links is not inconsistent with the condemnation of the denial of human rights.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, do the Government not believe the assurances given to them by the Iraqi Government and their ambassador concerning the scale of evictions and expulsions of the Kurds? Can the Minister say whether the Government believe the statements made by the Iraqi Government that they have not used chemical weapons?

§ Lord Glenarthur
r: My Lords, as I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, if, as may have been the case, chemical weapons have been used, then we deplore it. As regards the reassurances given by the ambassador, when my honourable friend spoke to him he made it plain that any mass evacuations of 868 the type that has been described would be a matter of very great concern to Her Majesty's Government. My honourable friend urged that British diplomats and journalists should be allowed to visit the area to see for themselves. As I understand it, the ambassador said that he would welcome journalists going to the south to prove that no mass deportations have occurred in that region.

§ Baroness Strange
My Lords, can my noble friend tell me whether the Iraqis are making their own chemical weapons or getting them from somewhere else?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I cannot give an answer to my noble friend, but I shall certainly find out.

§ Lord Kilbracken
My Lords, is it not a fact that the present threat to Qala Diza and Rania is no more than a continuation of a systematic policy involving the movement of Kurds to other areas—the south of the country is not mentioned in the Question—and their transfer into what are no more than concentration camps? Has that not been happening for at least the past seven or eight years? I can confirm that, having seen it myself when I was in the area in 1981. Is this not all part of a systematic programme of genocide, under the definition provided by the United Nations, of the Kurdish people, and should it not be raised by the Government in the United Nations? Should we not take every action to bring it to an end?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, the noble Lord has a well known interest in this area. I can only repeat that when asked about this yesterday the ambassador gave clear reassurances that what is described as might have been taking place has not in fact happened. He went so far as to say, as I suggested, that journalists could go and see for themselves. Perhaps that is the kind of verification that is needed. I assure the noble Lord that wherever we have to raise this issue we will; I believe as what was said by my honourable friend yesterday bears that out.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, I accept the Minister's reply to the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, that one must maintain relations of some kind even with detestable regimes. However, will he reply to the main part of the noble Lord's question as to whether this applies to the arms trade? Do the guidelines allow trade in arms with Iraq?

§ ,Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, as I have said, the arrangements by which arms might be sold to either Iran or Iraq continue to be governed by strict guidelines which prevent the supply of lethal equipment. That applies to both sides. Attendance by British companies is a matter for their own judgment in the light of their knowledge of the strict application of those guidelines. One thing they do not do is to guarantee the availability at the end of the day of those goods for export.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, in addition to the unilateral efforts the Government appear to be making, would they not act more effectively through the European Community as well?

§ Lord Glenarthur
Yes, my Lords, the matter was discussed in the Twelve only yesterday.

§ Lord Kilbracken
My Lords, the ambassador said that journalists would be welcome to visit the south of the country to see that nothing of this kind is going on. Is it not a fact that the south of the country is nowhere specified in the Question? It is now believed that this is going on not in the south of the country but in other parts of Kurdistan. Will the ambassador agree to me or to other journalists going to the Qala Diza and Rania areas? If so, I should be delighted to take him up on it.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, the noble Lord will have to ask the ambassador about that. While I referred to the south of the country, we have to respect Iraq's legitimate security concerns in the north.