§ 2.40 p.m.
§ Lord McCarthy asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ When they intend to publish the full text of the NOP survey referred to in paragraph 2.2 of the Green Paper Removing the Barriers to Employment.
§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)My Lords, a summary of the results of the survey which was carried out for the Employment Department by NOP Market Research Limited was published on 20th March, and copies of that summary have been placed in the Library. An Article containing a full analysis of the survey will be published in the Employment Gazette later this year.
§ Lord McCarthyMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Will he tell us whether the article in the Employment Gazette will explain how after 830 people, 350 of whom replied and 200 of whom said that they were in a pre-entry closed shop, the Government reached the figure of 1.3 million? Will the article in the department's Employment Gazette tell us that? Will he tell us why the question was asked, not whether people were in closed shops but what would happen if they left—a question that they could not possibly answer? Will it tell us why such a ridiculous question was asked and, on the basis of that extremely doubtful survey, why the Government want us to treble the number of workers in pre-entry closed shops?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the survey was carried out by a very reputable company in that field and the work was done on a scientific and proper basis. 127 As the noble Lord will be aware, the techniques for taking samples and producing conclusions of that kind are very sophisticated these days, and those sophisticated techniques were used on that occasion.
§ Baroness Turner of CamdenMy Lords, is it not a fact that the Green Paper sets out a remedy for those people denied a job because they do not belong to a union? Will the Minister be good enough to tell the House what plans the Government have for providing remedies for individuals who cannot obtain jobs because they belong to unions?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, it is abudantly the case that to maintain massive restrictions upon entry to various industrial enterprises by virtue of some requirement to join a union is no way to provide additional employment opportunities. The fact of the matter is that loosening the constraints upon the closed shop in one way or another increases employment opportunities for all concerned.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, does the Minister agree that what he has just said applies to many professions, for example, the legal profession?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, that is a very interesting supplementary question, but it does not arise directly from the Question on the Order Paper.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, has the noble Lord studied the important proposals for additional employment opportunities made on Saturday by his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales? As the noble Lord is the spokesman for Wales in this House I am sure that he is close to his right honourable friend and therefore will agree with everything that he said. Will he say what consideration is being given to Mr. Peter Walker's very important speech?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I am of course a government spokesman in this department and not just a spokesman for individual departments.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, that is about the poorest answer that the noble Lord has given in this House.
§ Lord McCarthyMy Lords, does the Minister agree that his scientific survey is completely contradicted by three much more scientific surveys based on 3,600 replies which completely disprove everything in his report?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I am aware that the noble Lord is a very distinguished practitioner in this field. I am sorry that my right honourable friend did not engage his services to produce this particular survey. I know that the noble Lord has produced some important works on this matter. I dare say they were prepared on a different basis. However, we are quite persuaded that the techniques used to produce these figures, which are very comprehensive, were the right ones and have produced the right results.
§ Baroness Turner of CamdenMy Lords, will the Minister say whether it is the intention to produce the whole of the report rather than sections of it for the consideration of this House?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, to be truthful there is no report as such. What there is—and I have seen it—is a very voluminous collection of computer print-outs in the form of figures with the results of the analysis. A much more meaningful document will be the article which will appear later this year in the Employment Gazette. It will be a full analysis of the survey producing all the relevant figures.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, I think that the Minister owes it to the House to give a more precise answer to my question. Will he say whether or not he agrees with the proposals made by his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales in his speech on Saturday?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, from what I have seen of the accounts of my right honourable friend's speech, it related to economic policy generally and that is not the matter addressed by this Question.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is it not the case that the noble Lord's right honourable friend dealt in detail with the creation of new opportunities in employment, which is related to this Question? I ask the noble Lord whether he agrees with his proposals. That is very relevant to the Question.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I have not had a chance to study my right honourable friend's speech in detail but if it proposes new employment opportunities in Wales then that is much to be welcomed.