HL Deb 31 October 1988 vol 501 cc50-60

5.52 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 13th July be approved.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the main purpose of the order is to introduce provisions for homeless people broadly corresponding to those which apply in England and Wales and which are contained in Part III of the Housing Act 1985. The introduction of this legislation meets a commitment made by the Government following consideration of a report on homelessness by the Northern Ireland Assembly in 1985.

The order also develops the existing right to buy legislation and extends the Northern Ireland Housing Executive's powers to control houses in multiple occupation. In addition, it introduces provisions dealing with the sale of Housing Executive mortgages and provides statutory cover for the scheme for the purchase of evacuated dwellings and the first aid repairs scheme both of which are operated by the Housing Executive on a non-statutory basis.

The order has been subject to wide ranging consultation with interested bodies in Northern Ireland including the Northern Ireland Housing Council, district councils and voluntary organisations concerned with homelessness. Most of those who responded generally welcomed the proposed introduction of homelessness legislation although many felt that it should have provided more help for the homeless.

Your Lordships will know however that in the field of social assistance successive governments have followed a policy of broad parity with Great Britain. There would have to be some exceptional circumstances to justify extra parity treatment and in the case of homelessness in Northern Ireland no such circumstances exist. We have therefore felt it right to proceed with homelessness provisions for Northern Ireland which are modelled on the legislation which currently applies in Great Britain. These provisions are contained in Part II of the draft order.

Noble Lords may know that at present responsibility for the accommodation needs of the homeless is shared between the four area health and social services boards, which have discretionary powers under the Health and Personal Social Services Order 1972 to provide temporary accommodation for homeless people, and the Housing Executive, which has general powers to meet housing need under the Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1981. The order before us replaces the discretionary powers of the boards with a duty on the Housing Executive to secure accommodation for vulnerable homeless people.

Although the area boards have generally been using their discretionary powers to provide accommodation for vulnerable homeless people, this order will bring the great benefit of ending this division of responsibility between the boards and the Housing Executive by placing the onus entirely on the executive for meeting all the accommodation needs of homeless people. This will enable assistance for the homeless to be provided in a more planned and co-ordinated way.

The problem of homelessness has attracted a good deal of publicity recently. Your Lordships will therefore be interested to know something of the scale of the problem in Northern Ireland. During 1987 there were some 2,200 awards of what we call A1 status under the Housing Executive's housing selection scheme on grounds of homelessness or threatened homelessness. About 75 per cent. of these applicants received an offer of accommodation within three months. In addition the area health and social services boards arranged or provided temporary accommodation for 316 families and 271 single people in 1986. I am afraid that the figures for 1987 are not yet available. As there are about half a million households in the Province these figures show that the problem is neither widespread nor intractable.

The new responsibility placed on the Housing Executive by this order will result in a number of new duties. The first and main duty will be to secure accommodation for a person who is both homeless and in priority need and who did not become homeless intentionally. The duty to those in priority need but who are intentionally homeless is to secure a temporary accommodation for them and to provide them with advice and assistance to enable them to find their own permanent accommodation.

For those who are in priority need and who are unintentionally threatened with homelessness, the executive must take steps to ensure that accommodation does not cease to be available for their occupation. The duty to all other people who are either homeless or threatened with homelessness is to provide them with appropriate advice and assistance.

In deciding on the level of assistance to be provided the Housing Executive will be obliged to make inquiries about each case and notify the applicant of its decision and the reason for it. The order also contains sanctions for those who use deception to receive assistance to which they are not entitled, a procedure for the safeguarding of property of certain homeless people and provisions for the funding of voluntary organisations concerned with homelessness.

The transfer of responsibility from the area boards to the executive will be accompanied by a transfer of funds, equivalent to the amount currently spent by the boards on their homelessness responsibilities. In addition to the resources transferred to it, the executive has requested additional funds to enable it to carry out its new duties. I can tell your Lordships that this request is being considered in the context of the current public expenditure survey.

I have briefly outlined the homelessness provisions contained in the order. Also, your Lordships will want to be aware of the importance the Government attach to the operation of the legislation. Arising from this the Housing Executive has been asked to draw up a code of practice and guidance setting out how it proposes to administer the legislation and how other agencies will be involved. Arrangements have also been made to hold a seminar at the end of November to enable interested bodies to discuss the proposed code and other related issues. These initiatives, we believe, will do much to dispel the concerns expressed by voluntary organisations and will help to develop good working relationships between all the organisations involved.

Part III of the order deals with a number of miscellaneous provisions. Articles 18 to 24 enact in Northern Ireland the enhancements in the right to buy provisions contained in the Housing and Planning Act, 1985. They increase the maximum discount allowable on the purchase of a flat to 70 per cent.; they reduce the period from five years to three years during which there is a liability to repay discount and extend to three years the period during which completion of a purchase may be deferred. Some noble Lords may be aware that the Housing Executive is already selling dwellings on these enhanced terms on a voluntary basis.

Articles 25 to 28 introduce amendments which are mostly of a technical nature to the Housing Order 1981. However it is, I think, worthwhile drawing the attention of the House to Article 28. This provision will add to the executive's powers to enforce notices it has served requiring execution of remedial works in houses of multiple occupation. We believe that that should help the executive to develop its programme of action to improve conditions in that sector of the housing market.

Articles 29 and 30 give statutory force to the scheme for the purchase of evacuated dwellings and the first-aid repair scheme, both of which are currently operated by the executive on a non-statutory basis.

Finally, Part IV, comprising Articles 31 and 32, is supplementary. It provides for a number of minor and consequential amendments and appeals which are always listed. On this occasion they appear in Schedules 2 and 3 to the order. The order introduces what I hope noble Lords will accept as being important new housing rights for people in Northern Ireland. I commend the order to your Lordships.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 13th July be approved.—(Lord Lyell.)

6 p.m.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, for explaining the background to the order and for taking the House through its provisions. It brings us face to face with the need to serve the homeless in Northern Ireland. I believe that to be its overriding consideration, even though it contains other matters which we also welcome, particularly those in Part III.

We welcome the order, which for the first time in the history of Northern Ireland enshrines a statutory duty to provide accommodation for homeless people provided that they satisfy the three conditions contained in it; namely: they are homeless; they have a priority need for accommodation; and they are not intentionally homeless. Therefore, it is an important order and an important step in the right direction. However, we believe that the operation of some of its provisions will need to be constantly reviewed.

We are glad that the order places the new statutory duty to provide suitable accommodation for the homeless on a single authority instead of there being a split responsibility. We are pleased that that authority will be the Housing Executive. Those noble Lords who are familiar with the position in Northern Ireland know that the Housing Executive has the experience, knowledge and management skills to deploy the resources to provide the services which are required.

In addition, we are confident that the board, its members and officers will discharge the duty laid on it by the order with consideration and sensitivity. However, will the board be given the necessary additional allocation which it requires to fund the programme which the order will require? Regrettably, I must say that I am not so sure that the necessary allocation will be available. That is one of the major worries about the order.

Another major worry in the Province is that the list of homeless people who are recognised as having a priority need for accommodation—this refers to Article 5—does not include single, able-bodied persons without dependants. I reflect that their needs have been articulated by a large number of organisations in Northern Ireland. They include the Council for the Homeless; the Youth Homelessness Group; the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions; Shelter in Northern Ireland; and the Simon Community.

The Government appear to have taken the view that if the priority list were to be extended to include that group, members of such a group could too easily abuse the system. Allowing that there is a need for caution because of the risk of abuse, we suggest that the Government should have acknowledged that some members of the group could qualify for priority need. They could have done so fairly easily by inserting in Article 5 one or two matching provisions to be complied with. For example, could they not have included a single person who had satisfied the Housing Executive that he or she had been homeless for a continuous period of, say, six months?

Although we welcome the order, it appeals to many people in the Province that, by denying that kind of priority need, the Government may be walking away from their responsibility. In our view, it is no answer to say that the single, able-bodied person may well be accommodated, as so many are, by the general housing programme of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. That is so because one is not entitled by statute to be placed on the general housing programme.

Many of us regret that the order does not provide for an appeals machinery, at least in respect of the important Article 5. I have already acknowledged the fact that we have every confidence in the Housing Executive. Yet that executive is a human institution and therefore it can make mistakes. The Government have rejected an appeals procedure, arid in our view the arguments which they have deployed for rejecting such a procedure are not convincing.

We are told that it has been rejected because no appeal is allowed against the other management decisions of the Housing Executive. But we are not comparing like with like. We believe that a valid distinction can be drawn between a decision under Article 5, which relates to a basic statutory right, and the other management decisions of the Housing Executive. It is also said that an appeal machinery had to be rejected because it would be impractical to establish it. At least that argument has the virtue of novelty, but no more.

Finally, it is said that it must be rejected because in any event the aggrieved citizen can refer his complaint to the Commissioner for Complaints. But how long will it take to obtain the commissioner's decision? Where is the aggrieved party to be accommodated meanwhile? One wonders whether, at the end of the day, the commissioner can order the Housing Executive to reverse its decision.

There is one further criticism which has been levelled at the order. It is that, by virtue of Article 6, it excludes a person who has become homeless intentionally. We know from our experience in the rest of the UK that that is a difficult area. However, we note with satisfaction that Mr. Richard Needham, the Minister, has acknowledged that the operation of Article 6 will be kept under review.

I should now like to gravitate towards the voluntary organisations which have done so much in Northern Ireland to help homeless people. They have shouldered a substantial part of the burden. They have played a very important part in providing accommodation in their hostels for the homeless. Therefore, we welcome Article 15, which empowers the Housing Executive to give financial and other assistance to such organisations.

Perhaps the Minister will clarify one or two points. Must the financial contribution to be paid by the Housing Executive be of a capital nature to be applied by the voluntary body for a capital purpose, and a specific capital purpose, or will the Housing Executive be at liberty generally to top up the voluntary bodies' income? Again, will loans which can be advanced by the Housing Executive be free of interest and will they have to be guaranteed?

Finally, we are pleased that the Minister has confirmed that the Minister for the Environment in Northern Ireland is to hold a seminar on homelessness with the Housing Executive, the voluntary bodies and representatives of the health boards to discuss, as I understand it, the draft code of practice. However, we note that no provision has been made in the order for the issue of the code of practice and guidance. Nowhere have I seen reference to the code of practice in the order. Of course, that means that it will be a voluntary code of practice. I assume that the code has not yet been issued because we have not seen it but it will be submitted to the seminar and I assume from that that the seminar will be in a position to amend the code if it considers that it requires amending.

We welcome the seminar and hope that it will be the first of a series of seminars and that with such seminars, with a sensitive code of practice and with the new order, a substantial contribution can be made to the homeless of Northern Ireland. On that basis we are pleased to give this order our support.

6.15 p.m.

Lord Blease

My Lords, I wish to indicate my support for the remarks and the points made by my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies in his approach to this order. There are a few specific points on the order on which I should like the Minister to reply. However, in passing I wish to point out that I was unable to inform the Minister in advance about the points I wish to make because of the short notice given for this debate. Indeed, in this connection I wish to register my dissatisfaction at this short notice. One sitting day's notice to the Members of this House for a debate on important legislation dealing with Northern Ireland issues is a blatant denial of any semblance of parliamentary democratic procedure.

Such ill-thought out arrangements frustrate any efforts to uphold respect for the due parliamentary processes and for this Government. Many of us in difficult situations in Northern Ireland have sought to ensure that parliamentary democracy is a means of rectifying what are considered to be matters of concern in Northern Ireland. Indeed, I know that other noble Lords interested in Northern Ireland affairs have not had the opportunity, which they wished to have, to take part in the debate this evening. Therefore, one working day's notice is not sufficient and I should like to make that clear in my opening remarks.

This order is about homelessness in Northern Ireland. Let us not forget that initially, in 1968, the issue of homelessness gave rise to the political turmoil and mayhem that during the past 20 years has made serious holes in the fabric of the law and order and parliamentary democracy in Northern Ireland. Of course, I fully accept that the current events in Northern Ireland have gone far beyond the issues of homelessness and housing.

While this order is largely based on the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977 enacted some 11 years ago in England and Wales, it falls far short of meeting the needs of homeless people in Northern Ireland today. The Minister will know of the study into homelessness in Northern Ireland recently published by the Simon Community and Shelter organisations in the Province. I fully accept that there is considerable argument among those directly concerned in the statutory and voluntary sectors in Northern Ireland about the real extent of the problems of homelessness in numerical terms.

However, like my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies, I am pleased to hear that the Minister for Housing in Northern Ireland, Mr. Richard Needham, has indicated his proposal to arrange for a seminar within the next four weeks in which all those involved with homelessness in Northern Ireland will be asked to participate. If the seminar is designed to be a real consultative process and a clearing house as regards the facts and working relationships, I believe that it will be a real and practical step forward in meeting the needs of homelessness at this time in Northern Ireland.

My noble friend Lord Prys-Davies has gone into considerable detail and indeed I compliment him on his analysis of the situation as viewed by many in Northern Ireland. Therefore, I shall curtail my remarks to two points which I should like to make to the Minister. In the light of experience in England and Wales, following the introduction of the legislative duty, does the Minister seriously believe that the new statutory duty for the Northern Ireland Housing Executive can be fulfilled on the basis of an additional £300,000 to the current levels of expenditure that was undertaken by the health and social services boards in that respect? Is it not more realistic to think in terms of an annual budget of some £3 million if the problems of housing and homelessness in Northern Ireland are to be tackled?

Secondly, perhaps the Minister will indicate what legislative measures are likely to change in the benefit system for hostel dwellers and voluntary groups providing those important services for the homeless? Will the people under the proposed benefit system be worse off financially?

I believe that the arrangements for the 39 hostels and units for the homeless in Northern Ireland which provide accommodation, of which only three were provided by the four health boards, will be put under considerable strain. I should like the Minister to indicate in some way how he feels that the present benefit system may meet this situation. If there were to be some indication of additional financial means to implement the provisions of this order and the statutory duty now to be undertaken by the Northern Ireland Housing Executive I would be much happier to give a warmer welcome to this order than I do. However, with those remarks, I give my support to the order.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, the House is grateful to the two noble Lords who have spoken so clearly folllowing my introduction to the order. Of course, homelessness and housing is an important subject in Northern Ireland and it is only right that we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Blease. I thank him, together with his noble friend the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, for the care with which they have studied the order. Indeed, we believe it is an important step in combating homelessness, and I hope that what I said in introducing the order backs up that statement.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, raised a number of points. At one time I thought that I might have to write to him but I hope to be able to give him a full answer tonight. I shall study carefully his remarks and if I have missed anything he will certainly receive a letter from me. First, the noble Lord was concerned about funding for the measures outlined in the order. My remarks may cover some aspects of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Blease; but if they do not go into detail, I shall certainly do so more widely in writing.

As regards funding and the structure of the funds for the homeless, before the statutory transfer of responsibility takes place in April 1989 the resources currently allocated for homelessness by the four health and social services boards will be transferred to the Housing Executive. While the transfer of resources will enable the present level of assistance to homeless persons to continue, we expect that there will be additional demands on the resources of the executive as a result of carrying out the tasks we are imposing in this order.

The overall budget of the Housing Executive is determined every year as part of the survey of public expenditure. That does and will continue to take full account of the assessment by the executive of its housing needs and conditions in the annual review of housing strategy. The 1988 strategy review includes proposals for expenditure on homelessness over the next few years. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, that the funding for the homeless will be fully considered and, I hope, reflected in the 1988 survey.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, also asked about single homeless persons and he took us through Article 5. I shall not go into too much detail on the interpretation of that article tonight; but I assure the noble Lord that the legislation is drafted to ensure that the greatest assistance is provided to those in greatest need. Of course, each homeless person believes himself to be in great need. Immediate accommodation will be secured for applicants within the priority needs groups, who comprise those who are less able to look after themselves; for example, those with dependant children, the disabled or the elderly. Your Lordships will find that spelt out in Article 5(1).

I stress that able-bodied single people should be able to secure temporary or permanent accommodation for themselves when they have been given the advice and assistance on how best to go about obtaining such accommodation. That will be the main thrust of the legislation and of what the executive will be doing. There cannot be any justification for a system under which immediate accommodation is secured for everyone who requested it. We would not have those facilities. I believe I stressed that last year 75 per cent. of the needs for this category was achieved within three months. That is a good record.

Single people will continue to be eligible for housing under the Housing Executive housing selection scheme. That covers nearly one-third of all allocations which are made to single people. Single people can also continue to be housed in the private sector and in the voluntary sector, to which we extend our gratitude and praise. The voluntary sector has provided accommodation for over 750 single people in the past four years. That goes with the earlier figures I mentioned.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, asked about appeals in Article 9. The Housing Executive operates an internal complaints procedure. That already deals with all kinds of housing problems. We are confident that the executive will agree that the existing powers cover cases where people are dissatisfied with the decisions or actions of the executive's officers. The executive has agreed to review its internal procedure to discover whether it is appropriate, as it stands, for its impending homelessness responsibilities. That is one of the major points we shall be hearing much about in the conference at the end of next month.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, asked about intentionality—where it is the intention of a person to render himself homeless. I do not think that will be a major problem. The purpose of Article 6 is to ensure that people do not deliberately abuse the system by making themselves homeless in order to jump the queue ahead of others who have been waiting patiently and worthily on the housing waiting list to be rehoused. I stress that the Housing Executive has a good record under its housing selection scheme for making decisions in relation to what it calls "deliberately worsening one's circumstances". That is the language spoken by the executive and covered in one word in the order. I believe that the Housing Executive will adopt a sensible and compassionate approach to decisions under Article 6.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, had a detailed, perhaps accountancy, point on Article 15. I emphasise that the article gives the executive a specific power to assist by way of grant or loan. It enables the executive to assist the voluntary organisations. The noble Lord asked what the loans would cover. I understand that it is permitted for the loan to cover revenue items as well as what could be seen as capital items.

The noble Lord also took us along the road of finance and interest rates. This will be for negotiation. The Housing Executive will negotiate the rate of interest payable on the loans in its normal relationship between the executive and the department. No specific rate will be ruled out.

6.30 p.m.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, perhaps I may make this point clear. I want to know whether the loan will be interest free. I understand from the Minister that it will not be interest free but that the rate of interest will be agreed between the Housing Executive and the voluntary body.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, perhaps I may put it in this way. The loan could be interest free. That is how I have deliberately rephrased my remarks. It could be interest free but that is a matter for negotiation. I shall leave the question open. The interest can be from zero up to any rate that the Housing Executive deems necessary.

The noble Lord had one last query about the code of practice. The draft code of practice and guidance has not yet been published. When it is I shall ensure that a copy reaches the noble Lord as swiftly as possible. I also assure the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, that it will be possible to amend the draft code following the seminar to which I referred earlier.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, always presents his case with courtesy. As regards the timing of the debate tonight, I certainly convey my apologies. I believe the noble Lord will accept that it is a matter for the usual channels. On this side of the House our toes can also be trodden on. We can have mild inconvenience. If the noble Lord has been inconvenienced, I understand and I proffer my apologies.

I was fascinated when the noble Lord took us back and said that homelessness was one of the starting points of the troubles in 1968. Did it really start in Caledon? That was one of the starting points. The noble Lord asked me two specific questions. One concerns the duty in England and Wales. He mentioned the amount of £300,000 and thought that we might need £300 million. I am given to understand that the Housing Executive budget for this year will increase by £8 million; that is to say, from £500 million to £508 million. I believe the actual funding of what is before us this evening will be a matter for the Housing Executive.

If I can elucidate any further helpful information I shall write to the noble Lord. I shall certainly have to write to him on the question of benefit and how the benefit system will work with hostel and hotel accommodation. I am afraid I have not got any detailed or helpful answers this evening, so I hope that the noble Lord will receive a concise and helpful letter from me as soon as it is possible.

In conclusion, I am very grateful for the attention and care that has been lavished on the order tonight. Housing is of course a particular problem in Northern Ireland, just as it is elsewhere in the United Kingdom. I hope that this order will go a considerable way to alleviate some of the problems of homelessness.

Lord Blease

My Lords, in case it appears wrongly in the record, I did say £300,000 was to be the amount that probably would be handed over from health and social services to the Housing Executive. I said that the amount should be nearer £3 million, not £300 million.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I am so sorry. I shall certainly find out exactly what I said. I note the sting in the tail of the noble Lord's comments; namely, that it would be handed over. I do not know whether the noble Lord has an indication that this amount is in the coffers but I shall find out whether the sum is £300,000 or £3 million—I stress that again—and I hope that I shall have some helpful information for the noble Lord.

On Question, Motion agreed to.